Book 2 – Text Updates 018

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby splintermute » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:45 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:That assumption (first test) is the first thing on this topic in this thread that makes a crazy amount of sense. At first.

Wanda got uber-powerful by attuning to a Tool. This event we got to see, it was in Erf-time fairly recent, and she developped that power well.

How long has Charlie had a) the ArkenDish and b) a good reputation in the Magic Kingdom? Given these two basic ingredients, it is hardly implausible that Charlie would try link-experiments. Indeed, he probably did, if this update is any indication.

So he may (and I say, SHOULD) have stumbled on Turnamancer links, or any other nifty ability, sooner. He wouldn't be at the testing phase now, at least for other things. If he has already tested, powerful spells in the arsenal, now would be a good time to use them. Or, way back when Unaroyal was besieged.

I think a third basic ingredient would be c) guidance and/or motivation to do so.

Until the zombie-cano, caster links seem to have been used for: creating magic items (Charlie has the Arkendish and an army of dollamancers - why would he need anything else?); recon and strategy (Charlie can process (and intercept?) all the thinkagrams on Erf, and he has scouts and spies everywhere); and construction and city maintenance (Charlie already has an awesome-looking lvl 5 with lethal defenses). Especially considering the cost - it would tie up the dish, reducing his telecom income - from a simple cost-benefit perspective there would have been no incentive to experiment with links.

With the zombie-cano, Parson may have introduced a new concept into Erfworld: a weaponized trimancer. Now that the potential of a magical "superweapon" had been demonstrated, Charlie would have an actual incentive to experiment (which he might have been doing - it would account for the prior dish blackouts), and the few battles Charlie's been engaged in since tBfGK would have been opportunities to deploy and test his experimental weapon systems.

Also, ingredient b) is insufficient - beyond a good reputation in the MK, what Charlie needs is a willing caster located in the right hex. You're not going to test your a-bomb in the particle physics lab where you develop it (the MK) - you need a desert test site far from civilization. Charlie couldn't interfere at Unaroyal because Queen Bea didn't trust him and probably wouldn't have ordered/authorized a link with Vanna, and if Charlie had sent mercenary casters through the Unaroyal MK portal to help out, it would have been tantamount to an act of war (assuming the casters weren't instantly croaked).

I like Charlie's new power, from a plot perspective. After tBfGK, you had one major superpower on Erf - GK - that was all set to stomp over everyone else. Now you have two superpowers who've conducted successful nuke tests, and you get to watch them engage in a cold war.
Last edited by splintermute on Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:48 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
splintermute wrote:It was a TWO-turn blackout - the dish had been out of commission since yesterday.


It never stops!!!!

Okay. It was out of commission since yesterday. It is back in commission today, obviously, so that Charlie can speak to Sammy.


We don't know that he's using the dish for that thinkagram.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Trine » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:35 pm

I think it's more likely that charlie has one archon there or a few spies, and he's totally bluffing on having a force close enough to destroy it in a couple turns. Haggar probably doesn't have the best communication, just like the coalition - he probably doesn't even have a way of knowing (unless one of his casters is an eyemancer). I think they'll buy it regardless, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:56 pm

And again we see just how out of proportion Charlie's ego is. Only a megalomaniac would spawn units that are hopelessly in love with him.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby ftl » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:23 pm

Reclaimer wrote:And again we see just how out of proportion Charlie's ego is. Only a megalomaniac would spawn units that are hopelessly in love with him.


Um, he's a tool-user. Wanda's decrypted are just as in love with her as the archons are with Charlie, and Stanley's Dwagons are pretty loyal to him too. I don't think that the archons attitude towards charlie says anything about Charlie's personality, now that we have the other tool-unit example of the decrypted.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Lord Kasavin » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:34 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:Now, if Sammy were Parson, he'd call that bluff. After all, Charlie is notoriously cost conscious, and it requires fewer veiled Archons to scout out a city versus having enough to take it outright. And even if he did, it would prove that Charlie was anti-Royal, which Charlie doesn't want. Finally, Sammy isn't a fan of his father, so nothing lost there, and if the capital does fall, he goes Barbarian... but a shot to take Jetstone outright and found a new side.


If Sammy becomes barabarian, he has to pay upkeep for his units from his personal purse, and he can't pay it for all of his troops. He also can't stack with the units from the other 6 hexes.


Eh, details. My main point was no Warlord would risk a movement that may cost them their side's capital. That would just be stupid. However, Parson would. I'm guessing he'd played enough Texas Hold'em to know you sometimes have to go all in to call another player's bluff and win the pot. It's also another reason for Charlie to be scared of Parson. He can't count on Parson to do what's expected since he blew up his side's capital to win a battle he could have walked (or be flown away) from.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:41 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Ditto wrote:Also, he's been short on mercenary gigs from the known sides in the comic of late. Also-also, as you say he's engaging in some high-risk 'pro bono' work to get his house of cards back in order. Charlie is extending himself significantly beyond his comfort zone all around.


I'm under an NDA (no discussion agreement) about a certain topic, but I'd like to take this chance to iterate a question from my first post here-

just how big is Erfworld?

Apparently, not big enough that Charlie can ignore the part of it that includes the RCC and GK. How big is that though?


It has to be big enough that few people, even allowing for the erfling's typical lack of curiosity, would want to explore it. So let's say 4 times as much on each access as the longest distance we've heard of.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Raza » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:46 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Magothys wrote:What? 9000? There's no way that can be right...


That Charlie is wouldn't be willing to pay that for the return of an Archon? If they cost 500 per turn, then that would be 20 turns cost, that doesn't seem unreasonable.


No no no. You have to picture him crushing a scouter in his hands while he says that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby gazes_also » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:51 pm

On why hasn't Charlie achieved world domination already:

That's the las thing he wants, he doesn't want anyone to 'win the game', himself included.
(Lets call it the Charlie is The Wizard of Oz, Parson is Dorothy Theory)

IF (and it's a big if) Charlie is an outsider/player like Parson he probably thinks if someone wins - achieves control of the world - it's Game Over and he goes home.
But he doesn't want to go home - ever. Why give up life as Charlie to go back to being Chuck the Nerd?
It was hinted at in the summer that Parson might be starting to think is way, he's getting fitter, learning to fly a dwagon, he might even used to the idea of booping an Archon occasionally. Why go back to life in Stupidworld?

So Charlie manages things to ensure that no side ever gets strong enough to threaten total victory, which was pretty easy until GK came along. Now he has to neutralize two tools plus The Worldsgreatestwarlord. And that's why he's using a bit more muscle.

The other side of that coin is that he has stopped the social evolution of Erfworld and it is stagnating; that is why Parson is needed to break the world.

Just some idle thoughts...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:53 pm

ftl wrote:Wanda's decrypted are just as in love with her as the archons are with Charlie


We're still unsure of if it's the Arkendish itself that pops them. The pliers amplify Wanda's Croakamancer's powers so that she can create more powerful Uncroaked, and the hammer tames dwagons, but these are popped units that come from a city.

Anyways, we already knew those two were megalomaniacs. I just think this says a lot about Charlie's secret motives. Charlie doesn't need to conquer the world because he already rules it from the shadows, or maybe he just believes that he does. And GK directly threatens everything he's built by bucking the status quo.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Oberon » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:05 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:And now we see him send Archons with abandon on what are NOT mercenary missions: helping Jillian, spying on Sammy, spying on Haggar, maybe some other Archons near Haggar to give them grief ... It's nice to see Charlie, an established character that's a chessmaster in control, strain a little; it adds some feeling to us that important things are happening.
He is not straining. If you think about it a bit, it's easy to see that this is his standard MO. He is not just a provider of mercenary services, he is an information broker. This pretty much means that Charlie is regularly sending Archons to do what he had them do at Haggar: Collect intelligence that he can sell. How much will one side pay to learn the exact details of the forces at an opposing side's capitol? My guess is OVER 9000! :lol:
BCCroaker wrote:Rob is a Tarantino fan. Fox Force Five from Pulp Fiction.
If Rob is a fan of every reference he uses, then my guess is he is schizophrenic. :o
Ditto wrote:There you have it, Bland - the ranged link-up meant the Arkendish was otherwise out of play for the duration. That doesn't just mean the archons are squiffy (which counts as a disadvantage, yes) but also that they have to rely on the archon's natural-Thinkamancy network for communication, which is limited by the (not inconsiderable) number of archons manning the 'switchboard'. Without the arkendish on their side, Charlescomm is a nobody. Taking the arkendish out of play for even one turn is a significant investment - and risk - if Charlie hasn't got his spy network set up just-so to run the shop while his brain is otherwise occupied.
Raza wrote:Sounds a lot like the link required the blackout. Which should finally shut up the kingworld discussion, thank the titans.
You think? Why? Is the blackout a true cost? What, exactly, does this cost Charlie? Because yet again we appear to have a stated cost which under closer examination is revealed to be almost a non-cost. A cost without impact is no true cost. The impact to Charlie appears to be rather trivial.

OK, it seems probably that for each turn Charlie was linked with Vanna that his 'Dish was focusing solely on maintaining the ranged link. Although the duration is in question. Vanna was treated as a linked caster for more then two turns, but we also have:
Hilary wrote:Since yesterday [last Turn], communications through the Arkendish were blacked out, which always put everyone in a bad mood.
This translates to "Since last Turn, and a portion of this turn.", as we have seen events unfold.

But exactly what does this Arkendish blackout cost Charlie? Let's explore! The 'Dish is used to:
1) Allow Charlie to communicate with his Archons, clearly. The angst Hilary felt makes that clear. But did that really impede the normal operations of gathering intelligence and communications? This does not appear to be so.
Text Updates 018 wrote:After relaying full intelligence on the dispensation of Prince Sammy's units to Charlescomm, they settled into positions. [...] Charlie himself was not receiving, so the intelligence was handled at the tower by Fox Force Five.
This group of Archons, at least, didn't even slow down. They just went to satellite (a higher latency communication option, due to the distances involved) once their DSL went down. 8-) This perhaps slows somewhat the flow of information, but it does not interrupt it. Very little intelligence will be so actionable that portion of a turn or even a turns delay will make a difference. This appears to be a very minimal cost.
2) Allow Charlie to receive contacts from any petitioners across Erfworld. Fantastic ability, but this is the description of how it works:
Erfworld wiki wrote:Any commander in the world can get those Archons' attention by concentrating hard enough, for long enough. This could take hours or even days, but Charlescomm would establish contact eventually. This allows him to hire out to any side or barbarian in the world.
A turn is a day. So this would be better phrased "This could take hours or even Turns." But petitioners to Charlie do not contact him directly anyway, they get Archons. Very little will be lost if Charlie himself is not able to connect, as the Archons can collect information for Charlie to act upon once he becomes available. Or the Archons can just ignore calls while Charlie is indesposed. Petitioners are used to not being always able to reach him in the first Turn, this is not unusual. It is rather par for the course. Only the most urgent contracts might be lost due to a delay of a Turn, and this is already a possibility. This appears to be a very minimal cost.
3) Makes his Archons sad pandas. Zero cost!

Kingworld, or more specifically linking with another (or two other) casters is only a minor inconvenience to Charlie, if examined in the right perspective.

Casander wrote:For a smart guy, Charlie can be Very stupid.

People are going after GK because they are afraid of a particular Arkentool, and its potential to obliterate them. And here comes Charlie, putting a dagger to Haggar's neck, and expecting them to be happy about it, and not move to Heaven and Earth to prevent Charlie from EVER exerting that pressure again.
You have a very good point. But Haggar can't exactly spread the word about Charlie without exposing their precarious position. So it falls to spreading rumors such as those Sammy relayed to Charlie, which may not be terribly effective. My guess is that Haggar either clams up, no one wants to look the fool, or Charlie wipes their side some time when no one is nearby to report how it happened. Making an enemy also makes taking action against that enemy an easy decision.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Let's not forget that the 'dish also lets him give his Leadership bonus to units abroad. With radio silence, all Archon stacks are leaderless stacks; Knight-class units cannot lead stacks, and any Leadership bonuses they might themselves have wouldn't make up for the loss of their Chief Warlord. If an Archon stack were to engage an enemy whilst Charlie was linked up, they'd be unable to withdraw from combat until Chuck broke the link, as they'd be stuck auto-attacking. This would obviously be a severe tactical disadvantage.

Edit: Just a speculation. As Oberon has pointed out, some Archons do have natural Leadership abilities. Normally this would automatically make them Warlords. However, I believe that Charlie would demote them back to Knight-class because he is obsessive-compulsive and cannot stand the thought of somebody else playing with his toys. You can see hallmark signs of this dementia when Jillian told him the plan, the one he'd come up with, had changed irrevocably. During the pause, I imagine him hitting the mute button and storming around his office trashing the scenery as he comes to the realization that he has absolutely nothing to threaten her with that won't also destroy his own plans. "That's GREAT," he says. "Now please try not to derail my scheme even more than you have already."

He has to ask her, he can't order her. I imagine this totally kills him. It makes me like Jillian a little more.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:09 pm

That's a fascinating idea/question. As a ruler, does Charlie's Dish allow him to give his leadership bonus to every archon in the field as if he was in their stack? He might be only able to personally lead one battle at a time, which generally isn't a problem during offense, but might be a problem if there's a coordinated attack against him in multiple places. This makes the quality of his archons vary drastically as to whether he's able to lead them or not, especially during a blackout.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:38 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:Now, if Sammy were Parson, he'd call that bluff. After all, Charlie is notoriously cost conscious, and it requires fewer veiled Archons to scout out a city versus having enough to take it outright. And even if he did, it would prove that Charlie was anti-Royal, which Charlie doesn't want. Finally, Sammy isn't a fan of his father, so nothing lost there, and if the capital does fall, he goes Barbarian... but a shot to take Jetstone outright and found a new side.


If Sammy becomes barabarian, he has to pay upkeep for his units from his personal purse, and he can't pay it for all of his troops. He also can't stack with the units from the other 6 hexes.


Also, Sammy now knows that if he marches in the direction of Spacerock rather than the bridge, Charlie will warn Tremmenis to return to Spacerock, foiling Sammy's chances of founding a new side at Spacerock before Charlescomm's turn.

I think Charlie made a mistake here. In the long-term, relations between Charlie and Haggar might have been easier to restore if Charlie had said, "Slately suspected you were planning to break alliance, so I have prepared invasion plans on his behalf. You will continue to cooperate with the RCC by going to the bridge hex, or I will provide the RCC the resources they need to knock over your capital."

Then it wouldn't exactly be Charlie threatening to attack Haggar. Also, I don't think it's in Charlie's interests for Jetstone to be able to manipulate Haggar by pretending to believe that there's a real alliance. The sooner Jetstone has to give up working with Haggar, the sooner the RCC will start hiring mercenaries again.

Edit: I just realized a reason why Charlie may have wanted to leave ambiguity as to whether what he will force Haggar to do is intended to help Jetstone or GK. He might be hoping to use Haggar and Jetstone's infantry to smash Ansom's column, and then to cause Haggar to turn on Jetstone even when it is likely to lead to the destruction of Sammy's forces. If he can force Sammy to take some Foolamancy archons into his force, they might be able to trick one side or the other into breaking the alliance.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby splintermute » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:49 pm

Oberon wrote:A turn is a day. So this would be better phrased "This could take hours or even Turns."

A turn is not a day - a day is the sum of all the turns of all the sides in a battlespace. Every side gets one turn per day, and if there are no other sides in your space your turn equals a day, but around Spacerock right now a day equals Charlie's turn + GK's turn + RCC II's turn (+ Haggar's turn if they do something stupid and break alliance).

Reclaimer wrote:Let's not forget that the 'dish also lets him give his Leadership bonus to units abroad. With radio silence, all Archon stacks are leaderless stacks; Knight-class units cannot lead stacks, and any Leadership bonuses they might themselves have wouldn't make up for the loss of their Chief Warlord. If an Archon stack were to engage an enemy whilst Charlie was linked up, they'd be unable to withdraw from combat until Chuck broke the link, as they'd be stuck auto-attacking. This would obviously be a severe tactical disadvantage.

Edit: Just a speculation. As Oberon has pointed out, some Archons do have natural Leadership abilities. Normally this would automatically make them Warlords. However, I believe that Charlie would demote them back to Knight-class because he is obsessive-compulsive and cannot stand the thought of somebody else playing with his toys.

??? There's no support for this - every warlord is a unit with leadership, but that doesn't mean every unit with leadership is a warlord. The obvious counterexamples are the archons - some of them have leadership but none of them are warlords.

Edit - yes, I realize in one of the klogs Parson says only warlords have leadership, but he got the information from Sizemore, who's not necessarily an expert on these things (in the klog he also acknowledges that Sizemore barely knows the basics)

It's not that an unled stack that engages an enemy can't withdraw, it's that an unled stack that encounters an enemy (i.e a non-ally) has to engage, the only exception being scouts.

In this case, presumably one or more of the archons on this mission has leadership, because they entered Sammy's hex, encountered his army, and didn't engage - and all this happened during the Arkendish communications blackout. The Arkendish might let Charlie give his archons a bonus, but they can still act as if they have a leader, even without the dish.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:18 pm

splintermute wrote:the only exception being scouts.


Mm.

Edit: My speculation regarding Archons' Leadership ability and the possibility of demotions is just that, but there's no overt evidence of them leading stacks. There's also no evidence of them not leading stacks. My idea is as impossible to prove as it is to disprove without further information from the comic itself, so feel free to ignore it. I just think it plays into my theory of Charlie as a control freak rather well, and the fact that they're the only exception to a rule is too curious to be completely coincidental.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby gazes_also » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:30 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
I think Charlie made a mistake here. In the long-term, relations between Charlie and Haggar might have been easier to restore if Charlie had said, "Slately suspected you were planning to break alliance, so I have prepared invasion plans on his behalf. You will continue to cooperate with the RCC by going to the bridge hex, or I will provide the RCC the resources they need to knock over your capital."

Then it wouldn't exactly be Charlie threatening to attack Haggar. Also, I don't think it's in Charlie's interests for Jetstone to be able to manipulate Haggar by pretending to believe that there's a real alliance. The sooner Jetstone has to give up working with Haggar, the sooner the RCC will start hiring mercenaries again.


For one thing, too many words with too many syllables, it would make Sammy's head hurt.

Haggar knew Jetstone expected them to betray them, they were counting on Jeststone not being able to do anything about it. A threat that was conditional on Slately acting against them would be a joke.

Haggar is a blunt instrument and Sammy is a thug, any kind of negotiation tactic short of "do what I say or I'll rip your arm off and beat you to death with the wet end" isn't going to work. Also Charlie isn't going to let the beating up of one of his Archons slide. Shooting down the spotters; that's business, but beating her up after she surrendered; Charlie has to slap him down hard for that.

I actually respect Charlie for being so direct here and letting the mask slip just a little. I suspect that even if Sammy does exactly as ordered some damage will be inflicted on Haggar; a ship sunk perhaps. One: to remove any doubt that he was not bluffing; and two: for payback.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby StClair » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:34 pm

gazes_also wrote:IF (and it's a big if) Charlie is an outsider/player like Parson he probably thinks if someone wins - achieves control of the world - it's Game Over and he goes home.
But he doesn't want to go home - ever. Why give up life as Charlie to go back to being Chuck the Nerd?

Or, my own favorite theory - Charlie is the Arkendish. And if the game ends, the Titans show up and he goes back to being just another Tool of theirs.
If so, "he" is fighting for his (continued, relative) freedom and self-determination, perhaps even his very conscious existence.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Aquillion » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:44 pm

Wait, wait, hold it.

Charlie is in the battlespace. As his own side.

Since he's unalligned, he goes at dawn.

He also sees it as vitally important that nobody else find out that he's there.

...does anyone else see the problem with this? If Charlie is going at dawn, that means that there is someone else who should be taking their turn at dawn... who isn't. And will be expecting to. And, therefore, will know, at the very least, that there is an unknown enemy in the battlespace with a turn before theirs.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby zeuspro » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:51 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018
by Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Let's not forget that the 'dish also lets him give his Leadership bonus to units abroad.


Sorry but i must have missed where we found this out. Any chance of a link?
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