Book 2 – Page 25

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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Fug » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:32 am

For my part I don't like Slately's personality.

When things are going his way he lords his greatness over others and turns up his nose at barbarians princesses like Jillian. When things are not going well he holds a whiny pity party for himself. In particular I cite his fear before what would have been GK's attack when he asked Vanna about Bea in a pretty desperate manner and in the next strip he is laughing something like "ha ha now we can destroy them"

I think it is a perfectly normal way for a person to react to the situations he is in, but not at all stoic and befitting of a royal, which makes me dislike him.

Also I'm still waiting for a princess named Xena who goes to battle a lot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:41 am

I'm surprised nobody's noted Tramennis's reaction to finding out about Charlie and his involvement. It's almost like he's giving Jillian a "you sly dog" look; yet it also seems to hint at gears turning in an attempt to turn this to his advantage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby TamLin » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:55 am

Like I said, I'm becoming rather partial to Tramennis. He seems to have some underlying crisis of confidence that steers him away from the arrogance common to Erfworld characters, but doesn't allow it to paralyze him or compromise his effectiveness.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby owdskoo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:27 am

sebastian wrote:Charlie can't attack Haggar for a simple reason. he is a mercenary, who is going to hire him if he start to attack sides on his own initiative rather than because someone paid him to do it?

If you are a mercenary start to fight for yourself is bad for business.


Even so, this principle must have limits. Charlie has some territory he would fight to defend. Being smart, he would also fight nearby to keep his position safe. (though he might hide this fact by offering cheap/free prices when he wants to fight, as with Faq.)

Given that he has expansive assets, and GK is rolling over everything, we might have reached a point where he has to act more like a normal side
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby ftl » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:33 am

Lamech wrote:Charlie seems to be slipping up here. Jillian might have well said, "I'm totally working with Charlie!", when she said no comment; oh, and she somehow knew that Charlie wanted to hit the ground column.


"Somehow knew" was because she'd just talked to Charlie about hitting the ground column herself, and Charlie's last words to her were along the lines of "OK, I'll see whether I can get you some help." So when Haggar suddenly marches up and says "We're hitting the ground column, Charlie said so" - Jillian is completely unsurprised.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby robak » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:48 am

GK should really try to ally with Haggar now. Come on, Rock out together! Sammy is the heir, right? He can survive with GK and rebuild his side in Spacerock.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Lamech » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:20 am

ftl wrote:
Lamech wrote:Charlie seems to be slipping up here. Jillian might have well said, "I'm totally working with Charlie!", when she said no comment; oh, and she somehow knew that Charlie wanted to hit the ground column.


"Somehow knew" was because she'd just talked to Charlie about hitting the ground column herself, and Charlie's last words to her were along the lines of "OK, I'll see whether I can get you some help." So when Haggar suddenly marches up and says "We're hitting the ground column, Charlie said so" - Jillian is completely unsurprised.
Well yeah, we know why Jillian knows Charlie's plan. Of course to everyone else it will make them conclude Jillian is working with Charlie. And since Charlie is a merc... they're probably going to think Jillian hired Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby SteveMB » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:35 am

Fug wrote:I think it is a perfectly normal way for a person to react to the situations he is in, but not at all stoic and befitting of a royal, which makes me dislike him.

Certainly not befitting a royal who presumably shares the belief that being a royal makes him stronger, smarter, and more morally fit than those of a lesser station.

Lamech wrote:Well yeah, we know why Jillian knows Charlie's plan. Of course to everyone else it will make them conclude Jillian is working with Charlie. And since Charlie is a merc... they're probably going to think Jillian hired Charlie.

And they -- especially Don King -- are going to wonder how the boop she was able to afford it, and start thinking that Charlie must have some motivation other than cash.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:11 am

Haggar really are a scary looking bunch. I wonder if Sammy is naturally that colour or whether it shows his RAGE! at being kept honest like that. And heh, sending the rockers in as a first wave. I wonder if Charlie might be hoping Ansom gets diced up before Jillian can capture him. Or he is hoping Haggar will soak so much damage they will be to weakened to cause much trouble afterwards.

And I love Trem here. He is totally unfazed by the Charlie revelation. If anything I get a sense of sneaking approval, his "Reeeeally..." could have ended with "Why Queen Jillian, how devious of you. I heartily approve".

And Jillian is still saying she can't say - not a bad idea I guess. Charlie can keep things secret and if it comes to light, either after victory or defeat, he can lay it as Jillian's feet "Oh, I was hired by Faq, just doing my job". I also like his little dig at Haggar - puzzling delays indeed.

sebastian wrote:Charlie can't attack Haggar for a simple reason. he is a mercenary, who is going to hire him if he start to attack sides on his own initiative rather than because someone paid him to do it?

If you are a mercenary start to fight for yourself is bad for business.


Eh, Charlie is, I think, bluffing and big time. Bit if he isn't then he wipes our Haggar in a turn and no one is the wiser but Sammy who would likely not be long for the world. I mean with GK being GK I'm sure he could spin it to customers that it was them. Or he could say someone hired him to do it.

And besides - the RCCII is already not hiring Charlie and the people who are hiring him off in places GK and Jetstone have never heard of likely wont hear about it.

Fug wrote:How Parson saves the day (assumes Charlie is bluffing)

Parson to Sammy: Why don't you break coalition and join us.

Sammy to Parson: Because Charlie will take my Capital

Parson to Sammy: No he is bluffing- I just checked my bracer and he has a 0.04% chance of taking your capital next turn

Sammy to Parson: Well why should I- I could just croak your side here

Parson to Sammy: Because if you turn to my side everyone will think Charlie arranged it and turn against him


I still don't think that would make any sense (it has come up before). Parson would be fishing big time. GK should have no reason to believe Haggar is less then committed to the RCCII and that they would break the alliance. And if they did they should have even less reason to believe it now that the momentum has shifted to the RCCII. It would only make sense if Haggar decided to secretly contact GK....

Thydron wrote:why is sammy going along with this?

if haggar is in a bad position now, how is throwing away their main force against GK going to help them? i don't think sammy would trust charlies word that he won't attack haggars capital if his stack does what he says.


Well, rock and hard place. Go in and fight hard against GK (and likely be to weakened to threaten Jetstone) and accept Charlie won't attack the capital (and Charlie hasn't given any reason to believe he'd do it anyway). Or... don't do as told as risk the rather immediate end of you side.

And they aren't really in that bad a position. They'll win with the forces there but take a beating, then they can go home, lick their wounds and dream of revenge.

ftl wrote:Charlie could have made an explicit contract, as legally binding as any of Charlie's contracts. "Do what I say and I won't capture your capital, sign here."


I think that is likely. No way Charlie would just take Sammy's word he'll play nice, he'd want it in writing I'd think.

Charlie's the classic example of lawful evil. He never breaks his contracts and always keeps his word, and never lies to or cheats his clients. He just finds ways of screwing them over without actually lying. That's still being a bad guy.


I don't know why, I just don't see Charlie as "evil". Well not yet anyway (and not necessarily more so then, say, GK). But if he is (or something else) lawful would definitely be in the descriptor I think. All the contract and bindings and so forth... which makes him reliable at least, as long as you can think fast enough to stop him outmaneuvering you in negotiations.

Lamech wrote:Charlie seems to be slipping up here. Jillian might have well said, "I'm totally working with Charlie!", when she said no comment;


She answered "I can't comment" to "Did Faq (hire Charlie)?" Which would still let him put in onto Jillian - Charlie hires out his services to other sides, so to those not fully aware of the facts it would appear Jillian hired Charlie. That is probably more then Charlie would want getting out at the moment, but it is better then "Charlie is an equal or more partner with Faq in this".

oh, and she somehow knew that Charlie wanted to hit the ground column.


Well yes, she told Charlie what she was going to do and he said wait, he'd try and get her help. Sammy arrives saying Charlie has told him whats what. Seems pretty clear.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby nerf-dweller » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:54 am

Jamus wrote:(And my tinfoil theory: Archons have thinkamancy AND foolamancy. They have a natural thinkamancy network- something like a hive mind. The ONLY units Charlescomm appears to have are archons. The only motivations Charlescomm appears to have are cash, and that only for increasing their numbers. That sounds an awful, awful lot.. like a natural side. Like the hobgobwins. Does Charlie even exist? Or is Charlie the chief archon?)


I highly doubt Charlie is an Archon. Erfworld has strange parallels with (our) Parson's world. If you arren.t old enough to remember, there was TV show called Charlie.s Angel. Premise wss a detective agency staffed by ex-police women run by a mysteroius man who is never seen. He only appears on the show and to his Angels aa a voice over the phone. That is the parallel for Charlie. For futher proof, the very first page Charlie and Archon's apprear, there is a panel of 3mof his Archons that are in a silouetted poise. That poise is exaxtly like the closing shoot of Charlie's Angels opening title sequence.

I very much doubt we'll ever see Charrlie at all. Except perhaps in a silouette. Chalies did that a couple of times on Charlie,s Angels. But the audience nor the Angels ever saw face.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:06 pm

Lamech wrote:Well yeah, we know why Jillian knows Charlie's plan. Of course to everyone else it will make them conclude Jillian is working with Charlie. And since Charlie is a merc... they're probably going to think Jillian hired Charlie.


Which isn't a bad thing for Charlie, because it stops him looking like too much of an instigator or independently active. Charlie working for a side is nothing knew or strange.

Though for people in the know, like TV and Vinnie especially... well, they'd wonder how Jillian could afford Charlie's services. And since Archons aren't about exactly what Charlie's services have been. The spell they should guess.

SteveMB wrote:Certainly not befitting a royal who presumably shares the belief that being a royal makes him stronger, smarter, and more morally fit than those of a lesser station.


Well they are his quite moments, his moments of doubt. I'm sure everyone but the most insanely egocentric or overconfident has those moments, especially when you are about to face your direst moment. How you handle them is telling. I'd say Slately handled them well enough, he didn't go to piece or freak his troops out. He had a quite moment and asked as question.

Just because he thinks royals are better then everyone else doesn't stop that, and it is relevant for Slately because while he thinks Royals are better he also secretly fears he might not live up to those same ideals.

gameboy1234 wrote:Naw. I'm sure that Charlie's sole motivation is to have the untrustworthy Hagar soak loss for both Faq and Jetstone. Ansom will survive the first wave easily--GK has a ton of units in that column still. It's the second and third waves Ansom has to worry about, probably both will happen at the same time (and I'm betting Jillian will be successful when she attempts snag Ansom, probably by smoshing him with her megawatsit.)


I think it could be any number of things, and I think they are all fairly smart for Charlie. As you say sending Haggar in first damages them and will probably make them less problematic in the near future, simply because they aren't trust worthy and at the moment they are dangerously strong if left unattended. It is also probably a good place to have Haggar, you defiantly wouldn't want them at the rear where they could get ideas (like the Capital when Trem and Jillian are committed to the attack, or the Jetstone troops), this way they'll have Jetstone at their backs to keep them a bit more honest.

Plus I think it could also be an attempt to get rid of Ansom like Reclaimer said.

Dr Pepper wrote:It also means that Ansom will face a warlords (and his column of heavies) whose intentions towards him are unconflicted.


Indeed.

Aquillion wrote:Why do you think Charlie cares about Ansom?

He's never given any real indication that he particularly cares about Ansom or Jillian. His sole reason for being in this fight is the Decrypted Archons, recall. They know some secret of his that he doesn't want revealed.


I'm fairly sure there has been no update that gives Charlie's primary motivation for helping Jillian as being the decrypted archons and what they might know.

Really we can only guess what Charlie's long term motivations are for being there (though I think just stopping GK messing up the status quo is an understandable place to begin).

What he might know about Ansom though is that Jillian just went off script big time. They had Wanda in the cross hairs and Jillian decided to go after the column instead.

Reclaimer wrote:Ansom's the reason Wanda isn't dead right now. Also, consider what would happen if Ansom were to somehow be restored to his former status as alive. He would not be very happy at Charlie's actions at the Battle of GK, and he can hold a grudge just fine. It's not in Charlie's best interests to see him walking around again on the Royal side.


That is a good point.

Reclaimer wrote:*Edit: This also implies that anyone who has paid for Full Service could get all of the information from an Archon that Parson also received. Food for thought, to those who think Charlie's so concerned about an information leak that he'd throw so much into closing it up so late in the game.


I hadn't thought of that before. Very good point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby gazes_also » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:50 pm

Lamech wrote:Charlie seems to be slipping up here. Jillian might have well said, "I'm totally working with Charlie!", when she said no comment; oh, and she somehow knew that Charlie wanted to hit the ground column. And probably every unit of Haggar knows who is directing the battle, if they don't get a wipe of GK here Charlie's "secret" will be revealed; assuming Sammy doesn't say something like, "Sorry, we can't accept the alliance offer because Charlie made us a deal we can't refuse, but we would really like one after all this nastiness is resolved."

So Parson will soon have confirmed pretty soon Charlie is heavily working against GK, and he is hiding it.


I think Charlie's NDA are completely (magically) binding - she can't say more than no comment even if she wanted to.

Hitting the ground column was J's idea, Charlie said he'd get her help. I don't think she expected the Haggar column to be it, hence the "oy", he's putting her in an awkward position as he's being this obvious while she's trying to be discrete.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Aquillion » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:15 pm

gazes_also wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
He's never given any real indication that he particularly cares about Ansom or Jillian. His sole reason for being in this fight is the Decrypted Archons, recall. They know some secret of his that he doesn't want revealed.


Recall nothing, there is absolutely nothing to support that contention even though it seems that repeating it often enough on these boards somehow gives it credibility.

It was what Charlie gave to Jillian as his sole reason for getting involved in this fight:
"You may want more than that," said Charlie. "I certainly do. But croaking Stanley the Tool would be a good start for both of us."

"Huh. Really." That was a surprise. Disband it...now she was interested. How did he always manage that?

"Queen Jillian, you were not the only one who lost much at the Battle for Gobwin Knob."

Her eyes narrowed. "You didn't lose what I did, Charlie."

"I lost more than you can know," he said. "My secrets have been compromised. You can't imagine what that may mean."

She mentally compared the loss of Prince Ansom to the loss of Charlie's trade secrets, and scoffed.

We know (from a later update) that Parson hasn't managed to extract any interesting secrets from them, despite some casual efforts to do so -- certainly nothing that would justify this kind of reaction from Charlie. Most of what Parson got out of them is stuff we could've guessed already. The logical conclusion from this is that there is still another shoe waiting to fall.

Charlie also made it very specifically clear that he was trying to hide his involvement in this fight from Parson, not from anyone else. This means that he's afraid of something that Parson could do simply by knowing that he's there. The reasonable conclusion from these two things is that if Parson knew Charlie was there, he might be able to deduce why, and would question the Archons more thoroughly than he has until now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby fuzzyjuan » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:51 pm

robak wrote:GK should really try to ally with Haggar now. Come on, Rock out together! Sammy is the heir, right? He can survive with GK and rebuild his side in Spacerock.


That's what I was thinking. They are being strong armed into helping, and sammy seems very pissed about being a veritable sacrifice. However, if he allies with GK, they can ceed his side control over spacerock and promise to reclaim Haggar's capitol from charlie when they march again.

Barring some other tactical miracle, I don't see any other way out of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Ehbobo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:10 pm

No, that just won't work. Say Haggar move into GK's hex and allies with them. Suddenly it's not their turn and they can't move any more. Charlie can still go and he captures Haggar's capital. Sammy and his entire column disband, poof, along with the rest of the side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby gazes_also » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:44 pm

Aquillion wrote:[
It was what Charlie gave to Jillian as his sole reason for getting involved in this fight:
"You may want more than that," said Charlie. "I certainly do. But croaking Stanley the Tool would be a good start for both of us."

"Huh. Really." That was a surprise. Disband it...now she was interested. How did he always manage that?

"Queen Jillian, you were not the only one who lost much at the Battle for Gobwin Knob."

Her eyes narrowed. "You didn't lose what I did, Charlie."

"I lost more than you can know," he said. "My secrets have been compromised. You can't imagine what that may mean."

She mentally compared the loss of Prince Ansom to the loss of Charlie's trade secrets, and scoffed.



Charlie also made it very specifically clear that he was trying to hide his involvement in this fight from Parson, not from anyone else. This means that he's afraid of something that Parson could do simply by knowing that he's there. The reasonable conclusion from these two things is that if Parson knew Charlie was there, he might be able to deduce why, and would question the Archons more thoroughly than he has until now.


Charlie is assuming that any secrets (operational tradecraft at most) are already lost, and his involvement is to croak Stanley not recover the Archons. He doesn't want Parson to know about his involvement because as long as he is an unknown variable Parson's calculations of battle strategy will be inaccurate. And it worked at Jetstone, didn't it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby robak » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:39 pm

Ehbobo wrote:No, that just won't work. Say Haggar move into GK's hex and allies with them. Suddenly it's not their turn and they can't move any more. Charlie can still go and he captures Haggar's capital. Sammy and his entire column disband, poof, along with the rest of the side.

Why would they disband? Isn't Sammy the heir of Haggar?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Decorus » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:46 pm

Charlie has the forces to wipe Hagger off the map, he isn't bluffing.
Charlie has over 600 Archons 30 of them were all he needed to take GK in book 1.
He can easily find out exactly how many Archons it will take for him to do it and he has way more then he needs for that purpose.
The funny part is most of Charlie's income comes from his intelligence gathering which is his near monopoly on communications in ErfWorld and not his mercenary work.
If people actually thought Charlie was something more then an oppertunistic Mercenary they might understand just how expensive using him for thier communication needs really is....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby effataigus » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:32 pm

I really can't see Haggar allying with Gobwin Knob, but I still have the happy hope that someday Sammy attunes to the Arken Hammer. If Stanley can rock that hard with it, imagine what Sammy could do :shock: :twisted: :shock:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 25

Postby Reclaimer » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:39 pm

Aquillion wrote:We know (from a later update) that Parson hasn't managed to extract any interesting secrets from them, despite some casual efforts to do so -- certainly nothing that would justify this kind of reaction from Charlie. Most of what Parson got out of them is stuff we could've guessed already. The logical conclusion from this is that there is still another shoe waiting to fall.


Or that there is no worthwhile information to be gained from them. He wouldn't load them up with valuable intel and then rent them out full-service to somebody that might want to know more about the man behind the 'Dish. I think the whole vengeance angle is a red herring so that Jillian wouldn't press him on his motives.

Decorus wrote:The funny part is most of Charlie's income comes from his intelligence gathering which is his near monopoly on communications in ErfWorld and not his mercenary work.
If people actually thought Charlie was something more then an oppertunistic Mercenary they might understand just how expensive using him for thier communication needs really is....


This, exactly. He is Erfworld's Ma Bell, an information specialist, and a subcontractor for insane magical services (By way of MK, with which he has a sterling rep). The Archon is a fairly powerful unit on her own (I still don't see them as overpowered, though), but her most important attribute is that she's basically a direct, real-time link to Charlie and his world-spanning intelligence network.

gazes_also wrote:I think Charlie's NDA are completely (magically) binding - she can't say more than no comment even if she wanted to.


I think it's mundanely binding - if she violates the NDA, she breaks the contract, and Charlie is free to do whatever the hell he wants.

gazes_also wrote:He doesn't want Parson to know about his involvement because as long as he is an unknown variable Parson's calculations of battle strategy will be inaccurate.


Don't know about that one. Parson's bracer seems to take completely unknown variables into account during its calculations, an ability Charlie showed him completely by accident (And thus is aware of). I will admit, though, that I have no idea why he wants to remain in the shadows when a play like this could go a long way toward mending fences with Jetstone.
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