Book 2 – Text Updates 019

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby build6 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:56 pm

y'know.

I'd actually half-thought that we were gonna find out "which is stronger - the hold Wanda has on decrypted Ansom, or The Power Of Love". What this text update shows is that it isn't even close. Which is ... kinda sad.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Oberon » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:02 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:The Persians outright won the battle of Thermopalye both by flanking the narrow defensive position [...]
The flanking was only made possible when a local told the Persians about it. Which really goes to reinforce the notion that it's easier to win via treachery than to win via force. Charlie is well versed in this truism, it appears.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Oberon » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:19 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Maybe, although I always read it as Ansom not having dance fighting. I may be misremembering but I thought someone from the GK side said none of the RCC commanders could lead one.
Ansom can dance fight, he led the *ptui* dance fight of the entire RCC force that could not dance fight, remember? It seems to be a Warlord ability, but it may not be universal to all Warlords.

Parson told Bogroll "Almost no one in Ansom's coalition can dance fight", which I always took to mean that the rank and file RCC units could not dance fight, but that the Warlords could as it was an innate ability. That would be "almost no one", as the Warlords compared to the bulk of the units were a very small number.

Dance fighting may be a specific capability of some units, and we know that it can be a marginal ability, such as uncroaked led by a master-class croakamancer, which has to see rather rare use. I mean, really. Casters rarely take the field, and you have to have a master-class to lead them? In some games units are balanced by a cost, and placing restrictions on a capability can be used to reduce costs.

And of course... Archons with Foolamancy combined with a dance fighting capable Warlord can let any unit dance fight. *ptui*
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Flyer » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:28 pm

Davre wrote:Unless I have misunderstood the term 'heavy', I think this is a blooper: The text says 'two heavies' but in the art there are five or six twolls and the spidew.
Yes, that was what was in his hex prior to his pulling his stacks together - the end result is what is pictured

Looks like the orchestra is in position.... now its showtime :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Flyer » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:30 pm

build6 wrote:y'know.

I'd actually half-thought that we were gonna find out "which is stronger - the hold Wanda has on decrypted Ansom, or The Power Of Love". What this text update shows is that it isn't even close. Which is ... kinda sad.


I think we'll get more on this... stay tuned :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Kender Wizard » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:27 pm

Hurrah! It looks like we're about to find out something I've been wondering since decryption started being Wandas primary technique. Namely, whether or not decrypted have all of the abilities of the uncroaked. There are similarities already, in that both uncroaked and decrypted are greatly improved by having a unit closely linked to them nearby (a croakamancer for uncroaked, attuned weilder of the pliers for the decrypted), and that neither seem to have upkeep costs (Stanley joked about that in the very beginning of the comic - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0027.html).

That leads to the question of whether they possess the other qualities of the uncroaked... namely, do they have the uncroaked's ability to dancefight under certain circumstances? And, if they do, is it something they can only do with Wanda? If they can, they might have a chance here. If not... I think GK would be hammered. I mean, Haggar has 7 hexes of units that he can array in any way he wants (i.e. he can choose to attack one hex at a time, and there is nothing gk can do about that) and neither gk nor haggar has casters. Haggar can dance fight, but its likely that gk cannot. So, haggar has the numbers advantage and may have the advantage in bonuses.

That said, there is one possible way this could play out that I haven't heard mentioned. Namely, that Jillian decides to argue about whether Haggar should go in first, and somehow ends up leading the engagement. A motive for this would be ensuring that Ansom isn't specifically targeted and dusted by Hagger before she can get there.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:17 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:The Persians outright won the battle of Thermopalye both by flanking the narrow defensive position and as history often forgets by beating the Athenian navy that would have allowed them to flank the position by sea anyways.
I must admit my grip of ancient history is a bit relaxed, but the story I was familiar with went something like- Thermopylae was won by the Persians, BUT it bought some precious time for the Greeks who then went on to win that war, indeed, in a massive naval battle. It may be that this story is not quite accurate, and is merely intended to fit the "win the battle, but still lose the war" pattern.


That is the sort of revisionism we get all the time in history. Battle A may have been lost... but it set up victory at Battle B!
Thermopalyae was the only narrow chokepoint capable of holding off a much larger Persian army. When the position was flankd (by a local selling terrain information, yes), it was a disaster at the time. The alliance of city states nearly broke down entirely. The Spartans and other Pelopennesian Greeks retreated to their pennisula to defend the chokepoint at Corinth. The problem is Athens, the only city state with a navy to counter the Persian navy which would let the army bypass any choke point, was on the other side. Athens alone would defeat the Persian EF at Salamis, and only after the city was razed. So, if Thermopolyae was a "victory," its a victory because it worked at first and could of worked had the Persians not learned of the flank... and had the naval battle occurring simultaneously not been going against the Greeks.

If you want a better example of "loose battles, win war," the American Revolution or the Second Indo-China War are probably more fitting.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:47 pm

Jorgath wrote:Delurk to post.

You know, while I will say that Ansom looks pretty awesome on that spidew, I can't help but remember another moment with a Gobwin Knob Chief Warlord directing a battle on a spidew...


Damn.
That would be one piece of awesome foreshadowing.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:31 pm

Ninjaguineapig wrote:
Jorgath wrote:You know, while I will say that Ansom looks pretty awesome on that spidew, I can't help but remember another moment with a Gobwin Knob Chief Warlord directing a battle on a spidew...

Damn. That would be one piece of awesome foreshadowing.

I think the only mounts GK can pop are dwagons and spidews, so realistically, this is the equivalent of a knight on a horse dying, and another knight being seen on a horse.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Decorus » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:09 pm

Ansom couldn't Dance Fight there was no on on his side who could, except well the Archons who used a combo of dance fighting and thinkmancy to let Ansom lead his troups in a dance fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:34 pm

Oberon wrote:And of course... Archons with Foolamancy combined with a dance fighting capable Warlord can let any unit dance fight. *ptui*


To be precise, I think we only saw "humans" doing the DDR, so it's possible that elves, heavies, etc. can't do it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Davre » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:04 pm

Glenn wrote:Davre, Gobwin Knob only had two heavies in the hex in front of the bridge when Ansom realized they might have a problem. So he sent Captain Ford back to the end of the column (which was in a different hex) to bring the rest of their heavies forward into the hex where they might be attacked.


Flyer wrote:
Davre wrote:Unless I have misunderstood the term 'heavy', I think this is a blooper: The text says 'two heavies' but in the art there are five or six twolls and the spidew.
Yes, that was what was in his hex prior to his pulling his stacks together - the end result is what is pictured

Looks like the orchestra is in position.... now its showtime :D


Yeah, I didn't realize that he managed the redeployment while it was still GK's turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby multilis » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:46 pm

'yet he didn't seem to display much of that "fight for the best but be prepared for the worst" mindset at GK.'

In his own way I think he did. He sends Jillian to scout, then sends help when fears for her.

He kept flyers/Jillian in reserve for donut hex trap.

He obviously was well prepared to use dance fighting counter. (So he probably planned well in advance for contingency of hiring Charlie if needed)

He was overconfident but that was at first because of experiencing Stanley's former 'leadership', and then later not expecting betrayal at a parley by a 'hopelessly beaten' force.

Part of his current mindset is probably from learning from his mistakes at battle for GK. He is still hampered by desire to impress others/pride, and his distrust of Parson. (If he were smarter would use Parson similar to how he used Vinnie in past).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:48 pm

Aster Azul wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that Ansom on the spidew looks kinda cool?


He certainly does... I wonder if mount wise it matters it is a spidew as opposed to his usual carpet? Or is a mount a mount when it comes to riding them?

Jorgath wrote:You know, while I will say that Ansom looks pretty awesome on that spidew, I can't help but remember another moment with a Gobwin Knob Chief Warlord directing a battle on a spidew...


Hmmmm.... hopefully the taste of key lime pie wont be know to any major character today from either side. Defeat and/or victory sure, but not key lime pie.

Oberon wrote:Ansom can dance fight, he led the *ptui* dance fight of the entire RCC force that could not dance fight, remember? It seems to be a Warlord ability, but it may not be universal to all Warlords.


I guess it depends on how it works. Do you just need a warlord who can dance fight to lead the units or do the units themselves also need to be able to dance fight? I read it as Ansom being the "leader" but both he and his forces were being guided by the dance/foola Archons (who also might have had leadership) since he didn't have the ability himself either.

Looking back I might be mistaken and Ansom could have it - although was he watching/following the DDR arrows himself? He did have the dance platform on his carpet at the time.

I don't think it is universal to all warlords either, but who knows. Always new things to learn in Erfworld.

Parson told Bogroll "Almost no one in Ansom's coalition can dance fight", which I always took to mean that the rank and file RCC units could not dance fight, but that the Warlords could as it was an innate ability. That would be "almost no one", as the Warlords compared to the bulk of the units were a very small number.


Well Vinnie could probably Dance fight (would Parson have know at the time he had left) but no one else at all in the Coalition side displayed it until the Archons started up, and Parson strategy was primarily to get rid of the Archons leading/guiding it (since thats how they were described). I guess that works either way, it would have stopped Ansom and the troops dancing, or it would just stop the troops if Ansom can dance fight.

Of course dance fighting seems less useful then if the rank and file can only dance fight if they also have the ability as well as being led by a dance fighting warlord (or by a foolamancy display) - I always imagined it as a dance fighting capable individual guiding the rest through the relatively simple motions set by the leader.

And of course... Archons with Foolamancy combined with a dance fighting capable Warlord can let any unit dance fight. *ptui*


Well foola and I'd think dance fighting as well. Out of all the Archons Charlie sent to GK how many had the right combination of abilities? Four? And they were probably higher lv in order to have them...

multilis wrote:He was overconfident but that was at first because of experiencing Stanley's former 'leadership', and then later not expecting betrayal at a parley by a 'hopelessly beaten' force.

Part of his current mindset is probably from learning from his mistakes at battle for GK. He is still hampered by desire to impress others/pride, and his distrust of Parson. (If he were smarter would use Parson similar to how he used Vinnie in past).


Good point. And I guess that is part of being a good leader - learning from your mistakes. Possibly through overconfidence and underestimation of GK he didn't have enough contingencies or the right ones (and sometimes there are things you just can't plan for) and he doesn't want to be in the situation again.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby BillMcD » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:00 am

build6 wrote:y'know.

I'd actually half-thought that we were gonna find out "which is stronger - the hold Wanda has on decrypted Ansom, or The Power Of Love". What this text update shows is that it isn't even close. Which is ... kinda sad.


Not necessarily... all it means is that right now, there's no direct conflict between the two, so Ansom hasn't had to choose. Right now, he can still rationalize a framework that brings both of them in-line together.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Frogpop » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:04 am

Lord Kasavin wrote:If you want a better example of "loose battles, win war," the American Revolution or the Second Indo-China War are probably more fitting.

Yep, it seems as though domestic insurgencies are the only true case where you can reliably lose battles in the long term and still win the war.

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I wonder if mount wise it matters it is a spidew as opposed to his usual carpet? Or is a mount a mount when it comes to riding them?

A mount is a mount, but a magical carpet is a Flying mount.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Dances-with-Marbits » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:57 am

Looking at the DDR dance fight I'm lead to suspect that the magic at work detected Ansom's steps through the beatpad and broadcast them in DDR form for the troops to follow.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:21 am

Frogpop wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:If you want a better example of "loose battles, win war," the American Revolution or the Second Indo-China War are probably more fitting.

Yep, it seems as though domestic insurgencies are the only true case where you can reliably lose battles in the long term and still win the war.


Actually, I would NOT call the 2nd Indochina war a "domestic insurgency," despite the stereotypes surrounding it. Whatever South Vietnamese militarily supported annexation by North Vietnam were wiped out in the Tet Offensive (which was a resounding military victory for the United States) or soon after. What followed was North Vietnamese troops operating in South Vietnam. After the United States withdrew its support, North Vietnam conducted a very traditional military invasion with tanks, mortars, and what have you. It fought against the South Vietnam forces trained and equipped by America. It won in traditional set piece military engagements, and moved on to sack the capital and take down the government with it. Soviets provided the material support nullifying North Vietnam's status as a barely industrialized country. This is off topic, but a point I can't help but make.

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I wonder if mount wise it matters it is a spidew as opposed to his usual carpet? Or is a mount a mount when it comes to riding them?

A mount is a mount, but a magical carpet is a Flying mount.[/quote]

It would appear Ansom's mount is under Ossomer's posterior at this time. So, not only did Wanda remove him from command, she borrowed his all but trade marked mode of transportation so one knight or Warlord did not have to give up their Dwagon and participation in the battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Frogpop » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:10 am

Lord Kasavin wrote:Actually, I would NOT call the 2nd Indochina war a "domestic insurgency," despite the stereotypes surrounding it...

I think that's a little nitpicky. Yes, in the end the South was steamrolled by traditional forces, but only at the conclusion of the long running domestic insurgency under the French, the Japanese, the French again, and then the US. The foreign power lost interest in staying, and its domestic ally couldn't resist the domestic opposition (and their foreign allies) on their own. Past the tipping point a domestic insurgency turns into a traditional mop up as the insurgents gain momentum and the eventual losers either lose interest, leave, or die.

You could say the very same thing about the end of the American Revolution.. towards the end the US was successful militarily because Britain wasn't interested in pursuing the issue by committing more lives or treasure. Domestic Tories either fought on and lost, left to live in Canada or elsewhere in the Commonwealth, or abandoned the cause and assimilated into the revolutionary populace. Just because the US with French assistance eventually racked up traditional wins towards the end against the loyalists and the Crown doesn’t make it any less of a domestic insurgency. It's just how things go in a successful (for the insurgents) domestic insurgency.

I wonder if there is such a thing as an unsuccessful domestic insurgency. It seems that when the rebels eventually do succeed (10, 25, 50, 100 years down the road, doesn't matter how long, really), the modern rebels just co-opt the earlier insurgencies as part of their national origin story.. the early chapters in what is now our glorious revolution.. the giants on whose shoulders we now stand.. etc. Really truly unsuccessful insurgencies that get utterly squished are unlikely to get very fair treatment in the historical texts of the Squishers Victorious. We would more likely see them referred to as dangerous foreign radicals or outsiders of some kind. Seems like the only unsuccessful domestic insurgencies are the ones that haven't succeeded.. yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 019

Postby Dances-with-Marbits » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:13 am

Wow guys, off topic much?
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