Book 2 – Page 26

[jkosta]

As others have said I find it understandable she would still have a strong desire to get back at Stanley (though if I remember rightly Stanley was a bit surprised she hated him).

I doubt Stanley even remembered her. It's like getting a drink thrown in your face by a girl you used to date in high school ten years and a few hundred pounds later (To a guy that can't even remember his lackeys' names). I understand that Jillian will always have a motive for revenge, but on the boards she tends to get simplified into an 8BT Fighter-style character when she's actually shown herself to be pretty complicated. Remember that she's now sovereign ruler of a kingdom that, at the very height of its power, Stanley basically took by himself.

Chun Li: My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away. A hero at a thousand paces!
Bison: I'm sorry... I don't remember any of it.
Chun Li: You don't remember?
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me... it was Tuesday.

[gazes_also]

Haggar benefits if Jetstone loses troops fighting Gobwin Gnob. Charlie might benefit if Jetstone loses troops fighting Gobwin Gnob. FAQ and Transylvito might benefit if Jetstone loses troops fighting Gobwin Gnob. Even Gobwin Gnob should prefer that Tremenis fights Ansom's column for the same reasons that Tremenis and Slately thought it was a bad idea.

The presence of Haggar's forces behind Jetstone was making them hesitate. If Sammy moves his column over exposition bridge Jetstone has no reason to hesitate. Haggar might have a way of communicating with Gobein Gnob. Charley has multiple ways of communicating with Gobwin Gnob. Gobwin Gnob is now trying to survive and might not care if some siege weapons are lost. I thought it was odd that Sammy actually discouraged Jillian from flying in alongside Haggar's column.

If I was Sammy, I would contact Gobwin Gnob and tell them to leave a corridor slightly wider than the bridge so that Haggar's army can march through and capture the siege engines. Ansom can close the gap after they pass. Crossing the bridge and taking the siege engines is an objective that Charley might agree to. It also keeps up Haggar's appearance as ally. If Jetstone does not follow over exposition bridge it will look like Jetstone betrayed Haggar. Haggar would retain all options. If Jetstone loses most of its forces fighting Ansome and then loses more croaking Wanda Sammy might be able to break alliance and sack the capitol. If Jetstone fails and loses it's army Sammy can also sack the capitol. If Jetstone wipes out Gobwin Gnob Sammy can claim to have been a loyal ally methodically achieving his assigned objective, and gets to take home the siege equipment and anything looted from Gobwin Gnob's baggage train.

That scenario also allows Rob to keep us in suspense and delay actual combat for another update.

Wow, That's astonishing in its ...audacity

Imagining how the negotiation went:

Sammy: "So, Ansom. You know that one defensive choke point you've got at the bridge? How about you let my whole column through into the middle of you column so we can fool Jeststone into following me and you can croak them. I promise we won't croak any of your guys, just smash a couple of you siege machines to make it look good. What do you say?"

Ansom: "Sounds like a plan to me. And I promise that when you come over and we have you surrounded I won't croak you, you blackhearted, unholy, royal heretic, you. After all, Charlie says we can trust each other, and we both trust Charlie, don't we?"

Sammy: "Absolutely, he's a great guy."

Ansom: " Yeah, that stupid brother of mine will never catch on we're not actually fighting each other, he's so clueless."

Sammy: " With my subtly and your guile how can we fail?"

Ansom: "Great, it's a deal then. Come over and we'll spring the trap."

Sammy: "Sure, BFN, see you soon."

Without doubt this is what Prince Blunt Instrument and Captain Obvious are planning.

[gazes_also]

[.

[I also like that idea. But maybe Charley's concern wasn't to get rid of Banhammer, but of Stanley. An other attuned arkenwielder would have been trouble (and he would), so sending him to a suicide mission would solve that. And what better place to hide an arkentool than a hidden kingdom in impassable mountains? And with Faqs weak military it would have been no problem to get the arkenhammer later if required. 50 archons should do that.

I've been considering this too. Stanley was supposed to lose, but that was an incorrect conclusion that Wanda (And easily Charlie as well) drew based on FAQ's predictamancer. If he set Stanley up for a fall, then he's hated him for a very, very long time. Now the question is why.

Edit: If he's responsible for the current Gobwin shortage, could Charlie be behind the mysterious Gobwin revolution that killed off GK's King Saline? He was a Royal (Obviously), which would mean ol' Citizen Chuck's guilty of regicide; he would DEF-IN-ITE-LY want to keep that a secret. It also means that he's completely and totally authored his own nemesis here, which could go a ways towards explaining the animosity between the two.

I love these speculations that rely on Charlie being
a) Totally malicious
b) tortuously devious
c) thoroughly incompetent

He's like Dr. Evil

Dr. Evil: All right guard, begin the unnecessarily slow-moving dipping mechanism.
[guard starts dipping mechanism]
Dr. Evil: Close the tank!
Scott Evil: Wait, aren't you even going to watch them? They could get away!
Dr. Evil: No no no, I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying, I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. What?

[Lamech]

The other side of that is that the 'objectives' must be clearly defined and reasonably achievable.

If they're not defined and Sammy is waiting for Charlie to say 'Enough' then Sammy could just send half his column over and head home with the rest.

If they're not reasonably achievable, such as wipeout the whole column, then he knows from the outset that he's just going to lose half his men so why fight hard.

The objectives have to be costly but achievable; such that if Sammy is really smart, uses all his skills and his troops committed and disciplined they can be achieved at a loss of about a third his men. That way he has an incentive to do his best for the coalition.
Also with half his large force gone, he will have an incentive to stay with the coalition, as they won't be able to stand alone for a while. I wonder if Charlie also used the carrot that he would help protect the weaken Haggar in the event that GK attacked it.

I'm also agree that the objectives must be achievable, if their not Haggar will just send 1/2 its troops over to be executed. And break alliance, or at least demand Jillian's head or some such. Then all Jetstone has to get rid of Wanda is the Jetstone column, and that requires surrendering the bridge. And then they still likely have to deal with that ground column.

And they now have a good reason to not want to work with Jillian; she apperantly strong armed Haggar into ignoring the archwitch, and going after a few insignificant ground units.

[Reclaimer]

I can imagine he promised the goblins that Stanley wasn't coming back... which explains something I've always wondered... why they would revolt if Stanley could retake them so easily.

Stanley at that point was an unstoppable badass. He's still got a little of that currently, which is why, despite the fact that he's a giant Tool, he's one of my favorite characters.

Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me... it was Tuesday.

Win

I love these speculations that rely on Charlie being
a) Totally malicious
b) tortuously devious
c) thoroughly incompetent

They're much funner than speculations that rely on Charlie being
a) Completely omniscient
b) Absolutely prescient
c) Comprehensively omnipotent

[Dr Pepper]

Ok, prediction time. I predict that the next text entry will take us back to GK and feature Parson advising Ansom, with being excruciatingly polite to each other. What could Parson come up with? How about mixing a few axes into the pikes, hopefully upgrading the formation from phalanx to landsknecht? Or having the plushies throw themselves onto the enemy to break up their coordination, then send in the stabbers? Whatever happens, i hope Wriggly gets to serve lots of key lime pie from the point of his spear.

[ftl]

I think Ansom's doing quite okay for himself at the moment. He's got the best defensive position he can muster, and for some reason unknown to him the enemy will be throwing themselves at it.

No, for now there's no clever tactics to be done - unless/until Jillian decides to get involved.

[build6]

I've been considering this too. Stanley was supposed to lose, but that was an incorrect conclusion that Wanda (And easily Charlie as well) drew based on FAQ's predictamancer. If he set Stanley up for a fall, then he's hated him for a very, very long time. Now the question is why.

Edit: If he's responsible for the current Gobwin shortage, could Charlie be behind the mysterious Gobwin revolution that killed off GK's King Saline? He was a Royal (Obviously), which would mean ol' Citizen Chuck's guilty of regicide; he would DEF-IN-ITE-LY want to keep that a secret. It also means that he's completely and totally authored his own nemesis here, which could go a ways towards explaining the animosity between the two.

Edit 2: This one seems pretty obvious now that I think about it: What are the odds Vurp's under an NDA re: Saline's death?

ooooOOOoooo... that does tie a couple seemingly unrelated observations together. Especially since we've seen that Charlie does think to meddle with natural allies (Jitterati and the Giants). I can imagine he promised the goblins that Stanley wasn't coming back... which explains something I've always wondered... why they would revolt if Stanley could retake them so easily.

(or her, I still maintain Charlie is a woman)

Yeah, all this insisting on "male voice" whenever it's about Charlie is too obviously a red herring.

My theory is that Charlie is a Unicorn.

And it's pissed.

I'm telling you, Charlie's a tuna.

I'm starting to wonder if Charlie's a Gobwin that was happily digging away and then ran into the arkendish. so far none of the gobwins we've seen have been cunning "masterminds" the way Charlie is, but maybe the dish ups your IQ too.

[djones520]

For all those speculating that Sammy is going to join forces with GK, is there any single spec of evidence to point out that he has no loyalty to his side at all? Loyalty seems to be a pretty clear cut "stat" from everything I've seen, and it's not like it's something that can be ignored for the sake of expediency. Furthermore, if he joins forces with GK, he's done. GK's turn is done this day, so his turn will be done. Charlie will wipe out Haggar at the start of the day, since they go first in that battle space, and when Sammy/GK's turn starts he'll have no resources and his entire army will disband. It makes no sense at all.

[wrecan]

My theory:

Sammy's objective is to capture Ansom and hold him. Charlie then tells Jillian she can have Ansom in exchange for capturing Ansom's replacement warlord... Parson. Vanna will be paid to turn Ansom to FAQ and Parson will be be turned to Charlescomm. If that happens, then Charlie will be happy to have either Wanda or Stanley croaked, and Jillian will be more than happy to croak Stanley.

Of course, plans don't always go as planned, and Charlie might not realize that Parson is limited to the Garrison -- for all we know, Stanley doesn't even know how to promote Parson so he has actual movement. Stanley might rush in to replace Ansom, with Maggie relaying Parson's recommendations, thus throwing a wrench into Charlie's plans.

[wrecan]

Oh, and this is Charlie...

[The Black Hand]

Oh, and this is Charlie...

You, sir, just won the thread XD

[gazes_also]

For all those speculating that Sammy is going to join forces with GK, is there any single spec of evidence to point out that he has no loyalty to his side at all? Loyalty seems to be a pretty clear cut "stat" from everything I've seen, and it's not like it's something that can be ignored for the sake of expediency. Furthermore, if he joins forces with GK, he's done. GK's turn is done this day, so his turn will be done. Charlie will wipe out Haggar at the start of the day, since they go first in that battle space, and when Sammy/GK's turn starts he'll have no resources and his entire army will disband. It makes no sense at all.

Ssshhh, don't go confusing them with facts and well reasoned argument - it's more fun just teasing them.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Edit 2: This one seems pretty obvious now that I think about it: What are the odds Vurp's under an NDA re: Saline's death?

No. No, no-no-nonono-no.

Yeah, that's just me over-reacting. There's nothing wrong with having a character with very long, and very complicated, schemes that happen to influence or outright set in motion everything in your story.

It's just that, I don't like it at all how Charlie now gets the credit/blame for everything mysterious that happened in Erfworld. Who is this Charlie anyway, God?

Now seriously, stuff happens; we don't know all of it, but I think it'd be a tad simplistic and a bit disappointing if it really turned out that it was all Charlie all along who did everything we forumites speculated recently.

[copperhamster]

Oh, and this is Charlie...

That reminds me of a story I once read that had Charlie Brown as this devious arch-villian-esq master manipulator type. The whole 'unlucky everyman that unfairly gets the blame for everything that goes wrong' thing was a carefully crafted fascade.

It was presented as journal entries, and covered random comics, the abc tv specials, everything.

Those were web pages I should have saved.

[asparagus]

I don't understand why Ansom's forces were several feet away from the bridge. Where they Haggar can attack the front row from three sides.

[gazes_also]

I don't understand why Ansom's forces were several feet away from the bridge. Where they Haggar can attack the front row from three sides.

It looks as if they are forming an arc around the end of the bridge - maybe to get as many pikes pointed at the attackers as possible?

[badninja]

[quote="BLANDCorporatio"]
It's just that, I don't like it at all how Charlie now gets the credit/blame for everything mysterious that happened in Erfworld. Who is this Charlie anyway, God?
/quote]

He is simply a genius that has until now been undisputed power house in Erfworld. Parson has changed the game making Charlie do things he would not normally do like work for free. In the summer updates we saw him effect a change on natural allies from one side to FAQ's. This was done after GK had taken out the previous FAQ. So people are naturally feeling that he was behind what happened at GK. I suspect Charlie tricked Stanly and the casters out of the city did the uprising and was hopeful to have the hammer fall into his lap. I am willing to wager that Charlie did not know that Stanly had been promoted to heir designate and when he did not go pop Charlie was surprised.

Charlie has shown to be playing his own game according to his own achrons by being available near any battle and to any side for the right price. Many of us, especially me, feel that many a battle is conveniently started by old Charlie so he can make some money secretly and if this got out his business would dry up and everyone would attack him and his side would be soon ended. Charlie is scared that his secrets are now in the hands of the most dangerous person in Erfwold Parson. While Charlie prefers to be in the shadows manipulating everyone, Parson is out in front, so to speak, wiping a superior leader and army out of existence in one masterful stroke. Charlie knows that he is in a very dangerous position and needs to prevent many things from getting out in the open because many paths lead to is destruction and he does not want that. So as I have said before expect the unexpected any time Charlie could conceivability involved.

[asparagus]

I don't understand why Ansom's forces were several feet away from the bridge. Where they Haggar can attack the front row from three sides.

It looks as if they are forming an arc around the end of the bridge - maybe to get as many pikes pointed at the attackers as possible?

What arc? I don't see one.

[BLANDCorporatio]

So as I have said before expect the unexpected any time Charlie could conceivability involved.

Again, there is nothing necessarily wrong about a character being the engine behind nigh-all plot development. There are story things that I could say are "objectively" (as close to objectively as these things get, anyway) wrong, but here the most I will commit to is that this does not feel right to me.

It seems a bit ... wasteful ... to have a supposedly huge and complex world, populated by diverse characters, only to reveal that really, most anything that happens is the result of the machinations of one dude/lady/unicorn/tuna. It makes that whole big world look less like a world and more like a soap-opera apartment building.

And notice that I'm not complaining about Erfworld here, but about the speculations we tend to make.

I'm all for conspiracy theories, but at least they should be more varied. If it's just "Charlie did it" ... meh.

Whatever, I'm an old fogey.