Book 2 – Page 26

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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby OneHugeTuck » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:37 pm

That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby randomstar » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:59 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Reclaimer wrote:Edit 2: This one seems pretty obvious now that I think about it: What are the odds Vurp's under an NDA re: Saline's death?


No. No, no-no-nonono-no.

Yeah, that's just me over-reacting. There's nothing wrong with having a character with very long, and very complicated, schemes that happen to influence or outright set in motion everything in your story.

It's just that, I don't like it at all how Charlie now gets the credit/blame for everything mysterious that happened in Erfworld. Who is this Charlie anyway, God?



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OneHugeTuck wrote:That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...


if you stay immediately after the chokepoint, you could surround them from 3 sides when they emerge from it, while they can only advance in narrow line (few on front to fight you).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby gazes_also » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:28 pm

asparagus wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
asparagus wrote:I don't understand why Ansom's forces were several feet away from the bridge. Where they Haggar can attack the front row from three sides.


It looks as if they are forming an arc around the end of the bridge - maybe to get as many pikes pointed at the attackers as possible?


What arc? I don't see one.


If you extrapolate the pikes of the men in the bottom left panel they meet as the radii of a circle with its centre in the middle of the front rows of Sammy's men. That would mean they're in an arc. It could just be forced perspective but they are in an arc in the panel.


That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...


if you stay immediately after the chokepoint, you could surround them from 3 sides when they emerge from it, while they can only advance in narrow line (few on front to fight you).


Yes, you want a few of the attackers emerging at a time into an open space where you have room to take a full swing at them. You only occupy the choke point when you are significantly outnumbered.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby The Black Hand » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:58 pm

gazes_also wrote:
asparagus wrote:That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...


if you stay immediately after the chokepoint, you could surround them from 3 sides when they emerge from it, while they can only advance in narrow line (few on front to fight you).


Yes, you want a few of the attackers emerging at a time into an open space where you have room to take a full swing at them. You only occupy the choke point when you are significantly outnumbered.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just the situation Ansom's ground troops are in?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Reclaimer » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:31 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:No. No, no-no-nonono-no.


This is a fair reaction.

On a sillier note, and running with somebody else's ball here, hasn't it been stated that female Gobwins exist but nobody's ever seen one?

And nobody's seen Charlie...

Ok, I'm done.

Edit: http://flakypastry.runningwithpencils.c ... itrine.jpg
Just sayin'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby 1Luv » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:35 pm

The Black Hand wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
asparagus wrote:That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...


if you stay immediately after the chokepoint, you could surround them from 3 sides when they emerge from it, while they can only advance in narrow line (few on front to fight you).


Yes, you want a few of the attackers emerging at a time into an open space where you have room to take a full swing at them. You only occupy the choke point when you are significantly outnumbered.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just the situation Ansom's ground troops are in?



Actually I think they have a pretty sizable force, it's just that they don't have the modifiers other than Ansom(and a few warlords) to help the stack. Also, no casters or flyers, whereas Jillian and Tramennis have casters and the megalogwiffs besides.

They also lack Wanda's (probably)huge bonus towards decrypted.



Also, on another note. ANyone else notice how no one actually says 'Croak' Wanda. They sya they have to 'destroy' her. It seems a bit pointed when they talk about croaking other enemies, but Wanda is always 'Destroy', not kill. As if she wasn't a normal person anymore....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby gazes_also » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:12 pm

The Black Hand wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
asparagus wrote:That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...


if you stay immediately after the chokepoint, you could surround them from 3 sides when they emerge from it, while they can only advance in narrow line (few on front to fight you).


Yes, you want a few of the attackers emerging at a time into an open space where you have room to take a full swing at them. You only occupy the choke point when you are significantly outnumbered.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just the situation Ansom's ground troops are in?


You're wrong... (you did say)
By significantly out numbered I mean you whole force can stand in the gap, indeed that's the only way to prevent being outflanked - Horatius Cocles would be the most extreme example.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Lamech » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:49 am

For all those speculating that Sammy is going to join forces with GK, is there any single spec of evidence to point out that he has no loyalty to his side at all? Loyalty seems to be a pretty clear cut "stat" from everything I've seen, and it's not like it's something that can be ignored for the sake of expediency. Furthermore, if he joins forces with GK, he's done. GK's turn is done this day, so his turn will be done. Charlie will wipe out Haggar at the start of the day, since they go first in that battle space, and when Sammy/GK's turn starts he'll have no resources and his entire army will disband. It makes no sense at all.
Sammy won't turn, but he could certainly break alliance after he has done his fighting or something else nasty; Jillian apperantly just got Charlie force Sammy to throw troops away on a meaningless objective. Charlie won't attack Haggar if he honors his deal, and now Haggar has a excuse to say... sieze Jillian and hold her hostage against her kingdom. I wonder if they can drag Jillian across the bridge with out breaking alliance...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Ditto » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:03 am

I think they were drawn as 10' back from the bridge because otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the first rank of Haggar advancing through the line of pikes, that's all. It's just a little artist's conceit so you can see the action.

Or heck, maybe you're only allowed to fight on the road in this hex, so it's exactly the same thing as being 10' forward and battling at the bridge's edge. Whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:52 am

Someone mentioned that without at least some open space for Haggar's troops to occupy within the hex, Ansom's archery would be useless. I think that makes sense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby SteveMB » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:30 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:That's not how chokepoints work, though.

You don't let the enemy PAST the chokepoint and then start fighting them...


Well, sometimes you let PART of the enemy past the chokepoint and then start fighting them.... :lol:
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:15 pm

1Luv wrote:Also, on another note. ANyone else notice how no one actually says 'Croak' Wanda. They sya they have to 'destroy' her. It seems a bit pointed when they talk about croaking other enemies, but Wanda is always 'Destroy', not kill. As if she wasn't a normal person anymore....

In book 1 the killer of Ansom (Bogroll) was destroyed, leaving nothing left to uncroak/decrypt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:41 pm

Lamech wrote:
And they now have a good reason to not want to work with Jillian; she apperantly strong armed Haggar into ignoring the archwitch, and going after a few insignificant ground units.


Haggar has no equipment with which to attack Wanda. We have not seen any missile weapons or flying mounts, flying equipment or casters in Haggar's column. The column looks like a mob of concert fans wielding scavenged and improvised weapons. If they kill Gobwin Gnob's archery stacks they might be able to pick up the bows and then use them to shoot at dragons. Sammy could throw his ax and might injure one dragon (or maybe 4 if the dittomancer double doubles the axe), but the mob would still be useless.

Dr Pepper wrote: What could Parson come up with? How about mixing a few axes into the pikes, hopefully upgrading the formation from phalanx to landsknecht?


I think a book could be written on this topic. Landsknecht differed from phalanx and pikers by introducing fire arms into the formation I do not recall seeing any firearms. We also do not know enough about melee combat in erf world to determine if that would really be an upgrade. A mixed stack might not get the same stacking bonus. We do not have confirmation that missile troops get a stack bonus.

Ansom and Parson have an excess of options. If the pikers can see Jack and/or the archons detailed maneuvers can be painted in the sky. Maggy can also directly communicate with any troops (maybe also the archons?), in this case the stack leaders would be important. It is possible that a small tugging on the ear takes less juice than talking which could allow Maggy to direct the movement of a mass of infantry.

I would argue that an infantry hexagon is inherently stronger than an infantry square or triangle. A rotating formation would move uninjured troops into contact. Rotation also allows troops unstack and restack so that each stack of pikers has the maximum bonus when engaging. Without restacking each casualty will reduce a stack's bonus.

If commanders have access to mass communication they can concentrate more troops on the front line but still retain the fluidity of a checkerboard formation. Mass communication also allows very close archery support. If the archers aim correctly they will not hit friendly troops. The front line can fall back while arrows are incoming and then lurch forward at the same second the incoming barrage stops. Attempting too tight of coordination on a dusty medieval battlefield would have been extremely dangerous.

Giving the swingers slings might be more effective and efficient than adding muskets. Stanley would appreciate the cheap ammunition and might be open to paying for the upgrade. In real world ancient or medieval battles indirect fire would have been very dangerous to friendly troops and a lot of rocks would fly to locations that did not have enemy. If the slingers are getting targets assigned by magic users or from flying troops it could be brutal. A sling bullet about the weight of a baseball should fly much further than a baseball hit with a bat. So, if your slinger formation could fit inside a stadium then all slingers could aim for a point like the home plate. Several hundred slings could launch thousands of rocks per minute. Neither Haggar nor Jetstone has shields, visors, or chin straps.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby One Skunk Todd » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:54 pm

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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:39 pm

"Haggar has no equipment with which to attack Wanda. We have not seen any missile weapons or flying mounts, flying equipment or casters in Haggar's column"

http://www.erfworld.com/page/26/

'"Restack the entire column," [Hagger] told the Captain, without looking up. "Warlords with archery, every archer stack with a Warlord or a multilevel scout." He crumpled the message and dropped it on the road. "Watch the skies.".'

(Normally you send melee stacks in front and archer stacks behind on a rush)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby gazes_also » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:37 pm

The attack is literally where push comes to shove.
Ansom's front ranks of heavies must hold, keep the Haggar troops penned in at the foot of the bridge and prevent them from breaking out.
If they can hold them then the archers can take out a lot on the bridge but probably not enough to tip the balance by itself.

Sammy can do one of two things, break through or push back.
If he breaks through his troops get in behind the heavies and can push through with some forward momentum get more troops on the ground and attack from both sides. This might be Sammy's personal strength, using his axe to create an opening in the front lines.
If they can push GKs front lines back this will allow more troops to get to the other side attack with more numbers, establish a bridgehead and eventually bei able to spread out at the flanks.

Ansom's problem is that he cannot swap out deleted units as that would mean giving ground - once that cork is in the bottle you can't pull it out to stick in a new one. Withdrawal from the bridge, however orderly is not an option. he can only move units in to plug the gaps.
Sammy on the other hand can, if the first strike fails he can hit them again with fresh stacks.

The more I think about it, the obvious tactical objectives for Sammy are break the frontline defenses of heavies (less resistance to Trammenis's forces); then eliminate the archery units in the first hex to give Jillian complete airspace control. Strategically, capturing Ansom still looks favourite.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Lamech » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:21 pm

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:Haggar has no equipment with which to attack Wanda. We have not seen any missile weapons or flying mounts, flying equipment or casters in Haggar's column. The column looks like a mob of concert fans wielding scavenged and improvised weapons. If they kill Gobwin Gnob's archery stacks they might be able to pick up the bows and then use them to shoot at dragons. Sammy could throw his ax and might injure one dragon (or maybe 4 if the dittomancer double doubles the axe), but the mob would still be useless.


Actually Sammy believes that he can defeat Wanda's entire force single-handidly.
book 2 text update 7 wrote:No, despite Gobwin Knob's habit of targeting Royalty, the danger was not that they'd attack Haggar's column. It was that they wouldn't attack the city.
Sammy wasn't worried that he might die if Wanda specifically targeted him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Reclaimer » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:46 am

Lamech wrote:Sammy wasn't worried that he might die if Wanda specifically targeted him.


He didn't have to worry about that; she didn't even know he was there until she was already on the offensive. Remember that they'd done almost no scouting on the way in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby shadowdemon » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:41 pm

Sammy also didn't seem to realize just how tactially brilliant the Gobwin Knob forces are, or the full impact that the arkenpliers have on a battle. He most likely did not incorporate the fact that he would have to kill his own units as they fell.

Anyway, I foresee Jillian doing something rash and stupid here, and dooming her chances at victory. She seems likely to order a tactical strike against Ansom simultantiously with Sammys attack on the frontlines, fearing Charlie ordered him to capture or croak Ansom. Meanwhile, Tramennis will have no reason to commit his own forces, so he will sit back and watch the carnage. I think this bisection of forces will be just the edge that Ansom needs to fend off both attacks. Tramennis could easily be put into the position of delivering the killing blow to Ansoms forces, after Jillian and Sammy have sustained heavy casualties and defeat. Jetstone might win this one yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby splintermute » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:01 pm

gazes_also wrote:Ansom's problem is that he cannot swap out deleted units as that would mean giving ground - once that cork is in the bottle you can't pull it out to stick in a new one. Withdrawal from the bridge, however orderly is not an option. he can only move units in to plug the gaps.
Sammy on the other hand can, if the first strike fails he can hit them again with fresh stacks.

Ansom actually has a huge tactical advantage in replacing defeated units - they'll turn to dust, rather than leaving messy bodies that need to be pushed aside or climbed over to fill in gaps in the front line.
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