Book 2 – Page 27

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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby charles » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:43 am

Squishalot wrote:
charles wrote:They'd captured one of Charlie's Archeons and there were six near their column but apparently only 3 were croaked and one captured so there should have been another two who could join them.


Charlie's Archons are off-turn at the moment.


Yes, but captured units can be moved by their captors. So Sammy moves his captured Archeon (maybe even capturing the remaining two and moving them as well) into the battle and releases them where they can cast at will on anything in there, despite being off turn (plus there's no distinction between the ground and airspace of a field hex).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby TamLin » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:48 am

splintermute wrote:I think Erfworld's treatment of blood is interesting, if inconsistent. Units don't bleed, but they do bruise (and their vampire bats can drain wild bighorned sheep), which implies the presence of blood.


Well, Erfworld (by which I mean, the setting, not the comic itself) comforms to the (strange) standards of modern popular entertainment: Violence is fine, but excessive gore is not. Sexual content is fine, but fade to black for nudity or overt sexual acts. And for boop's sake, no swearing. Murder and pillage if you will, but keep it to a PG level if possible.

This is the inherent paradox that even Parson seemed unsettled by in his klog; Constant mass destruction, war, and carnage is the standard way of life in Erfworld, but the forces that shape and control the world seem to prefer that the violence be sanitized, abstracted, and "safe" for consumption. Everything is cute and comical, with soft edges and cartoonish features. Sometimes its even cute the way things die. Except when you stop thinking about them as comic figures or units in a game and start to consider them like real people. Then it's all the more horrible.

This, I think, was one of the primary themes of Book 1, society's fascination with physical violence but our unwillingness to look at it in a realistic or responsible way, coupled with our strange squeamishness when it comes to theoretically less offensive things like profanity. We like to have it both ways with our entertainment; Give us our action and our violence, but don't give it to us in a way that might be upsetting.

I've been curious to see how Book 2 handles violence. In the past I was critical of the jarring juxtaposition or comical and visceral violence in Erfworld (a criticism I still stand by to some degree, although the tail end of Book 1 addressed a lot of what bothered me at the time). Book 2 is playing it much more straight and serious, so I wondered if perhaps it would work better here. Still too early to say though.

splintermute wrote:Hearing someone's heart suggests that their heart is actually doing something (i.e. circulating blood). More distressing is her use of the word "scars." Considering the Erfworld healing mechanism - regaining full health at the start of next turn, and we've seen units that are battered black and blue one turn look completely unblemished the next - there is technically no way anyone on Erf should have any concept of the word "scar," except maybe in a psychological sense, but you'd think they'd use a different word for that.


Well, I think this might be similar to the question of why Erflings (apparently) have sex is their race reproduces (if that's even the appropriate term for it) via asexually "popping" units. The answer, I think, is because it's dramatically appropriate to the story, both in the sense that the real author, Mr. Balder, wants to incorporate it as an element in the story, an also because the forces that designed and control the in-comic setting of Erfworld seem to like for things to conform to expected dramatic conventions.

Erflings have scars because its expected that warriors will have scars, and scars are valuable as symbols and as bits of characterization. They talk about their "hearts" (whether they actually have one or not) because it's a dramatically appropriate thing to say. As is often the case in games, what makes sense and is logically consistent takes a backseat to what looks and sounds good.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Davre » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:52 am

Sieggy wrote: ... And think about it . . . if Wanda makes it back on her turn, Sammy and the band will make an excellent addition to the tour (Toolapalooza?). ...


Toolapalooza! Good one. :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Altima » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:05 am

Lamech wrote:Spill the beans to GK? Since its implied that if Haggar would break alliance they wouldn't get to move I assume that leaving an alliance ends your turn... so if Jillian decides to screen for the airforce Jetstone wouldn't be able to attack with out ending their turn, and of course Jillian would still be able to move around and you know, carry Wanda's units in to take the garrison by dance fight; they could even bring the dwagons in by croaking them on to the tower. At least she could move Ansom in for the bonus... I'm betting if Jillian turned here Jetstone would fall.


RCC2 can dissolve alliances, btw, without suffering movement penalties (they do this in Book 1 to the Tardy Elves), so Jillian's movement would, most likely, go to zero. Jillian cannot ally with GK, because that's something Stanley would have to approve. Also, Jillian wants to croak Stanley, so her allying with GK is out of the picture.

Parson is also more or less aware of Charlie's involvement, and has suspected the little git for quite some time. In fact, he goes so far as to NOT tell Stanley, simply because the Tool would almost certainly insist on attacking Charlie directly, which would be bad.

Lamech wrote:Also Translovito is already falling apart, I don't think they will be able to take on another kingdom. Also, and this might very well be the most damaging, if GK is sincere with its attempts at alliance, Jillian could show the world GK is a worthy ally. That would be increadibly damaging, since at the very least the abused Carpool and Jitterai might join up. Hagar might too after Charlie decided to kill half their forces.

I doubt Stanley would ever ally with Transylvito and vice versa. Transylvito might be suffering a bit, but they still have many, many warlords, bats, and so on. They're still dangerous, especially to Jillian's little piss-poor kingdom. You have to remember, out of all the sides, Transylvito has lost the least, suffering only a few croaked bats and maybe the loss of a warlord. And the units they lost with Caesar, of course.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Ehbobo » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:09 am

I can't find it, but I'm pretty sure that in a recent text update, it said that Transylvito had lost 3 cities and something like 8 warlords since TBfGK. They're hurting pretty bad.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:29 am

Altima wrote:Jillian can't break alliance to attack either Hagar or Jetstone, else she'd be breaking alliance with Transylvito, basically making her a sitting duck.


I'm not predicting the following. I'm just spelling it out to show that there is a danger in pushing Jillian too far.

If Ansom's column gets croaked, Wanda would probably be more amenable to turning to Faq. Jetstone may not accept having Wanda alive, even on a Royal's team, and so Jillian might take Spacerock and found a new side there. (Trammenis hasn't been back to Spacerock, so presumably still is not Heir and would disband.) Then Jillian would be sitting in a single city with a huge airforce, half of which cannot be used against Stanley. She'd lose the Faq cities, but gain Jetstone's treasury.

I don't think there will be any Haggar survivors close enough to the fight to know that Jillian distracted Sammy. So, it might even be possible for her to line up an alliance with Haggar before sacking Spacerock (in return for ceding a Jetstone city, I suppose).

With Jetstone disbanded and Haggar battered, TV would probably be open to making peace with Jillian (at the price of repossessing Faq) and Stanley. Especially if the Ruler of TV becomes a non-Royal.

What's in this for Jillian: she gets Wanda, she's still not allied with Stanley, and a lot of people feel betrayed and angry (in other words, like she does).

OK, I guess that actually isn't so bad for Charlie :twisted:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Best » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:03 am

Aw maaan. It's sad to see Sammy go, I'd gotten very attached to him. But that's how these things go I suppose...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby robak » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:49 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I dunno, I quite liked the artwork, (except for Jillian's yell-panel)

I like that one. It is very strong. You can see, Jillian is close to tears but tries to play it down by acting angry. This panel pretty much sums up Jillian to me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Raza » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:34 am

TamLin wrote:Well, I think this might be similar to the question of why Erflings (apparently) have sex is their race reproduces (if that's even the appropriate term for it) via asexually "popping" units. The answer, I think, is because it's dramatically appropriate to the story, both in the sense that the real author, Mr. Balder, wants to incorporate it as an element in the story, an also because the forces that designed and control the in-comic setting of Erfworld seem to like for things to conform to expected dramatic conventions.

I've been thinking about this.

I'm convinced there will be some sort of twist with Jillian's heir. My first bet was that it would be a caster, but this seems less likely with what we've learned since about noble warlords, royal warlords and royal heir warlords being separate units on the production order menu and que. Maybe it'll be a vampire, cause she was banging Vinnie at the time?

It'd give him some dramatic relevance in Jillian's personal life, as she currently overlooks him in favor of everyone she can't have.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby elNabot » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:18 am

If anyone still have some doubts about Charlie knowing that Jillian loves Charlie, check this :
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/068.jpg

She tells Ansom she loves him via an archon, and in front of two others. There is no way Charlie doesn't know.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby splintermute » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:37 am

TamLin wrote:Erflings have scars because its expected that warriors will have scars, and scars are valuable as symbols and as bits of characterization. They talk about their "hearts" (whether they actually have one or not) because it's a dramatically appropriate thing to say. As is often the case in games, what makes sense and is logically consistent takes a backseat to what looks and sounds good.

Yes, warriors are expected to have scars, but you'll notice that none of them do - they have bruises and impalings and disintegrations and dismemberments and decapitations, but at the start of next turn, if they survived, they're completely unblemished. You'd expect characters like Ansom/Jillian/Caesar/Stanley - veterans of countless battles, to be covered in scars, but they all have smooth flawless skin, because scars are a byproduct of a certain form of wound healing that doesn't occur on Erf, so you'd expect scars to be an alien concept to them, like childhood and Newtonian reference frames.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Raza » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:42 am

The retconjured wounds are still wrong. The bruise and the cut were on the same side of the face, not opposites.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby elddonnemar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:42 am

Raza wrote:The retconjured wounds are still wrong. The bruise and the cut were on the same side of the face, not opposites.


D= [superfail] I'm so sorry...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Raza » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:00 pm

elddonnemar wrote:
Raza wrote:The retconjured wounds are still wrong. The bruise and the cut were on the same side of the face, not opposites.


D= [superfail] I'm so sorry...

Err, sorry for putting it so bluntly. I responded like I was addressing the forum crowd, not the artist; you deserve more appreciation.

I do like your art a lot. =)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby elddonnemar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:23 pm

Raza wrote:Err, sorry for putting it so bluntly. I responded like I was addressing the forum crowd, not the artist; you deserve more appreciation.

I do like your art a lot. =)


It's alright. It's my responsibility to stay consistent... Glad you like the art, though. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby build6 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:43 pm

TamLin wrote:This is the inherent paradox that even Parson seemed unsettled by in his klog; Constant mass destruction, war, and carnage is the standard way of life in Erfworld, but the forces that shape and control the world seem to prefer that the violence be sanitized, abstracted, and "safe" for consumption. Everything is cute and comical, with soft edges and cartoonish features. Sometimes its even cute the way things die. Except when you stop thinking about them as comic figures or units in a game and start to consider them like real people. Then it's all the more horrible.



Right. Everything you try to swear gets "Boop"-ed, but it's alright to do what you want with an Archon you pay for and then send her out on a mission she's bound to die on because it's cheaper.

screwtape wrote:Merciful god, the art sucks. Please, someone, make it stop.


I got no problems with the art.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby multilis » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Squishalot wrote:Sammy really didn't stand a chance.

He probably did have a chance as same bonuses may go his way... eg possibly chief warlord at similar level to Ansom with similar number of units around him. "Rocking out" bonus *may* have been involved.

Looks like he was trying to make it 1 on 1 with a wounded but mounted Ansom and came very close before Ansom's slightly stronger personal stack gained enough edge on his stack to turn tide. I would guess that if Parson calculated his odds, was perhaps 30% chance of success and 70% chance of failure, a few lucky rolls at beginning of these battles can make a big difference in many games.

Given no distraction by Jill he may have realized his stack was losing sooner and retreated.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby Dunham » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:41 pm

Odd mention, deviating from the bigger topics, but was I the only one surprised to see Stanley's banner in the last panel? In truth, it took me a moment to figure out who's it even was.
I suppose it makes sense for the Dwagons and such to still be alive, but I don't think it had been shown on the troops until then.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby gazes_also » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:23 pm

elNabot wrote:If anyone still have some doubts about Charlie knowing that Jillian loves Charlie, check this :
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/068.jpg

She tells Ansom she loves him via an archon, and in front of two others. There is no way Charlie doesn't know.


Ahh, but a lot of water has been passed under the bridge since then.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 27

Postby wrecan » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:29 pm

multilis wrote:Given no distraction by Jill he may have realized his stack was losing sooner and retreated.

Only if half his forces were croaked. I'm pretty sure Sammy charged in the vanguard purposely exposing himself, figuring he'd either get ridiculously lucky and croak Ansom, or he'd be croaked. He was trying to end the battle with minimal casualties to his men. If my guess is correct, Sammy's men are allowed to retreat if Sammy gets croaked, so he sacrificed himself to save his men, who, presumably, will use all their move to get back to Haggar's capital for defense.
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