Book 2 – Page 29

[Altima]

Could someone refer me to something officialish stating that you don't need a Thinkamancer for a link if there is such a thing? I thought that was necessary, but people are speculating like it's not.

The pre-www.erfworld.com pages made it pretty clear that a Thinkamancer is flat-out required for link-ups -- see Sizemore's explanation in Book 1, Page 54, Panel 8:
"It's a trick only Thinkamancers can perform. A caster's will is subsumed into a ... kind of a psychological alloy with the Thinkamancer."

As for the current page ... I feel lame for not seeing that coming, given how Jillian captured Duncan in the Summer Updates. But hey, it's one more wrench in the gears of the catastrophe this battle is rapidly becoming, so ... net win for the readers!

Linking does require a Thinkamancer. Are people discussing that it doesn't? The only time we're shown it might possibly be done without is when the Kingsworld spell was cast--and it's been heavily implied that the reason there weren't any casters there is because she was linked with Charlie and his Arkendish. After all, the spell drained Vanna's juice for two turns (though she strangely had enough left to 'try' to turn Ansom, but I suppose it's possible because Jillian told her to).

It's also possible that a Master-class Thinkamancer may be able to do long-range links (remember, Maggie's 'only' an Adept class).

All of this complaining reminds me strongly of all the complaining about Ansom's awesome counters to Parsons equally brilliant plans.

At least Ansom had a plan! From the beginning of their war, GK was crippled with Stanley's ineffectiveness, until, by the end, RCC had four times the forces to capture GK. Still, even along the way, Ansom was screwed over by Parson over and over (in fact, Parson's first strategy would have worked if Jillian hadn't suddenly and miraculously discovered the wounded dwagons--or had Stanley not recalled the dwagons when they would have eaten Ansom and Jillian and all the others).

Jillian has no plan. She doesn't even really have much in the way of forces, in comparison, and she has taken NO losses while she's been single-handedly screwing over GK effortlessly. In what is a comic heavily based on war-gaming, the character whose tactical finesse can be summed up in 'beat it until it stops moving' should not have the sort of power Jillian has within the story.

[Ansan Gotti]

Jillian has no plan. She doesn't even really have much in the way of forces, in comparison, and she has taken NO losses while she's been single-handedly screwing over GK effortlessly. In what is a comic heavily based on war-gaming, the character whose tactical finesse can be summed up in 'beat it until it stops moving' should not have the sort of power Jillian has within the story.

QFT. This sums up my view better than I could say it.

[ftl]

Jillian has no plan. She doesn't even really have much in the way of forces, in comparison, and she has taken NO losses while she's been single-handedly screwing over GK effortlessly. In what is a comic heavily based on war-gaming, the character whose tactical finesse can be summed up in 'beat it until it stops moving' should not have the sort of power Jillian has within the story.

Jillian might have no plan, but Don King and Charlie do. All the tactical brilliance of Jillian has been through the two of them, and all of her power comes from her backers. Pretending that all this has been done "single-handedly" is, well, exactly what Charlie and Don King want - the only one who knows better is, I think, Tramennis, and even he assumes that hiring Charlie was Jillian's idea rather than the other way around.

[Reclaimer]

Ansom was doomed effectively due to Wandas judgement, it's always been a matter of how/when. Wanda may have made the right call here, no one can really be sure. Also, if anyone stops to think about the flow of this comic you'll realize that on GK's next turn they're going to start pulling boop out of their collective boops like nobody's business, and turn the scales back on Jetstone.

Wanda could just, I'unno, enter the airspace above Trem's hex while GK's ground forces cross the bridge. Then, it's all-out war, with Ansom's CW bonus all over everyone on top of Wanda's artifact and Croakamancer bonuses, and it's just a total, bloody (er, gummy) mess for all sides involved. This is a thing that could conceivably happen.

She could blitz her way to GK, but I don't see that happening as GK would be virtually defenseless and we wouldn't have much of a story after that.

GK's not defenseless by any stretch. It's still the most well-funded side on Erf, and they've got thousands of units in reserve that weren't even with the main attack force. Otherwise you bet your ass Charlie would steamroll them with Gobwins and/or Archons at the first opportunity.

In what is a comic heavily based on war-gaming, the character whose tactical finesse can be summed up in 'beat it until it stops moving' should not have the sort of power Jillian has within the story.

But Stanley does, and always has.

Does nobody see that Jillian's completely analoguous to him?

[Black]

It is easy to interpret a situation to support your thesis.

[Glenn]

Actually, Jillian has lots of plans to choose from: she has Charlie's plan, Don's plan, her chief Warlord Duncan's plan, King Slately's plan, and her own plan. Her problem is not a lack of tactical or strategic ideas, it's finding a way to keep her allies sufficiently happy while obtaining her own goals. She switches back and forth among these many plans, depending on which she thinks are most to her own long term advantage. Just like every other Ruler on Erfworld, Jillian ultimately puts her goals first. She wants to continue to receive support from Charlie and Don, but she's not their pawn. Like Haggar, she's willing to break an alliance in a heartbeat if it's necessary to achieve her goals. She tried to join forces with Wanda, a move that would have totally changed the whole balance of power on Erfworld, if Wanda had agreed. Why does Jillian want Wanda and Ansom? Sure, they are both her former lovers, but they are also the two individuals who could do the most to strengthen Faq, if their loyalties could be turned. I think the personal, emotional issues and the cold pragmatism of power are both part of what motivates Jillian.

[Altima]

But Stanley does, and always has.

Does nobody see that Jillian's completely analoguous to him?

The difference is that Stanley has lost. Repeatedly. In fact, he would have been croaked if not for Parson and, funnily enough, his own selfishness (if he had stayed at GK, the side would have croaked because Stanley would not have been able to enter the Magical Kingdom portal). Stanley isn't micromanaging everything, either. He's genuinely giving Ansom what he needs. Jillian, on the other hand, makes Duncan tertiary, and she reduces Faq's Chief Warlord to a convenient bonus-maker.

[Black]

Jillian is a very experienced warlord, who has fought not only as a side, but as a barbarian, which is presumably much more difficult. Her strategic goals are unorthodox, reckless, impassioned, and completely out of sync with everyone else's, but she is still competent enough to execute it. Tactically, she is the most experienced air commander on either side of this conflict. She has experience fighting from all sorts of postures, as a dominant force as well as an outnumbered barbarian force. It is certain that no one can match her in the air at the tactical level. I would say, no not even Parson. As a soldier, she is one of the strongest fighters- perhaps even the strongest on the Royal side.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Jillian has no plan. She doesn't even really have much in the way of forces, in comparison, and she has taken NO losses while she's been single-handedly screwing over GK effortlessly. In what is a comic heavily based on war-gaming, the character whose tactical finesse can be summed up in 'beat it until it stops moving' should not have the sort of power Jillian has within the story.

I don't think Ansom's position as commander of the RCC is really comparable to Jillian's current position. Jillian is more of a warrior/warlord now in possession of a small kingdom which can't do much by itself and to survive needs to serve the bigger players - Charlie has a plan, Don King seems to have a plan and so on.

Of course Jillian also has things she wants - Ansom, Wanda, Stanley's head - and the only way she has a shot at any of them is to be of use to sides like Charlescomm and TV. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how you look at it) it seems when what she wants clash with what her backers want her goals take priority. Why has Jillian been able to "screw over GK effortlessly"? Because she had Charlie's resources, smarts and the element of surprise. And of course Wanda helped out as well.

But one could also why GK hasn't been screwed over as much as it could have been, and that would be because Jillian hasn't been prepared to do everything wanted of her.

And looking at things her role in Charlie's plan looked primarily to be the muscle. She'd be the Trojan Megalogwiff that would allow Charlie to influence the battle in a place he wasn't welcome and then she'd help Jetstone kill Wanda - perfectly suitable for a character who usually focuses on beating something "until it stops moving". Of course at it turns out Jillian has taken advantage of Charlie, she helped him influence things and then used the opportunity to pursue her own goals.

Wanda could just, I'unno, enter the airspace above Trem's hex while GK's ground forces cross the bridge. Then, it's all-out war, with Ansom's CW bonus all over everyone on top of Wanda's artifact and Croakamancer bonuses, and it's just a total, bloody (er, gummy) mess for all sides involved. This is a thing that could conceivably happen.

Perhaps, although Jetstone hasn't done much moving this turn yet - I think the only sensible thing for them to do is to return to Spacerock. They don't have much reason to stay in the field now. I don't know how much move Haggar and Faq's forces have. I'd assume Jillian could still get back to Spacerock if she wanted to, but I'm wondering if she won't bail on the battle now that she has Ansom and hightail it back to Faq. Who knows with Haggar.

Still Parson didn't like Wanda's chances of victory if Haggar and Jetstone where given the choice to join together (with Ansom and Sammy out of it I don't know how the odds change), although at the moment Wanda is still in position to burn the tower down and presumably kill Slately unless the Trem/Jillian's forces do something to make her leave when GK next turn starts.

[Sonic Screwdriver]

Every fight I've seen of Jillian has been to use her units as a shield so that she can personally smack her target. In fact, that's the ONLY tactic I've seen her use, even on a strategic level; and too many sides seem to blindly encourage this behavior out of her.

In retrospect, there is a decent likelihood that Ansom's hex is drastically lighter in terms of archery compared to when they attempted to nab'n'grab Ossomer, since they've got a perfectly fine airforce to handle that stuff. This makes Jillian's casualty list on her capture attempt seem much more plausible.

I'm still amazed by how much of a bonus the capital must give to defenders, for Jillian to actually be on par with the armada that was planned; unless megalogwiffs just happen to be unfairly more powerful than dwagons.

If I were Parson and was in the situation of effectively being Chief Warlord again, I know my first priority after survival would be to take Jillian out of the picture.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Looking at the page again got me wondering - I wonder what Ansom would have said to Jillian if she'd agreed to go and talk again?

I'm still amazed by how much of a bonus the capital must give to defenders, for Jillian to actually be on par with the armada that was planned; unless megalogwiffs just happen to be unfairly more powerful than dwagons.

I didn't think they were on par, being outnumbered as they were. Wanda was going to go straight through them after all to burn the tower, and she had great odds on succeeding from Parson's calc (the caster was more of a variable). Wasn't it even said during the parlay at some point by Wanda or Jillian that Jillian didn't have the forces to stop Wanda if they fought?

[Zavion]

I got to admit, I was onboard with every update, and fine with every new mechanic and spell. I didn't blink with Kingworld. But.. this is bothering me how easy it is to just pluck up and capture somebody, and presumably kill them.

I don't know Ossomar's level, but his capture at least revolved around several costly tactics that made it seem like it might fail at any moment. Involving different magics, and 2 types of units produced by an artifact. This one just seemed way too easy, especially if Ansom is supposed to be of such a high level that there are few like him

I honestly don't see how bonus assassination isn't all that anyone does if you can just flop down on somebody and suck them up, or swoop down with mongbats and just spirit any leader away.

[Black]

I think it would be easier to accept this maneuver if you concede that Ansom's hex wasn't as strong as you thought it was.

[Dunham]

Spose even if it was weaker, it was rather anticlimactic and, whether the stats support Jillian's actions or not, it was just another "Yeah I win" move from her. She's had a string of them. The one city she captured Duncan from, The Kingworld spell, and this. I'm sure there's been more.
Even if it's all justifiable, she's unlikable enough that watching her do nothing but win gets old, especially when she acts so undeserving.

[Lamech]

I got to admit, I was onboard with every update, and fine with every new mechanic and spell. I didn't blink with Kingworld. But.. this is bothering me how easy it is to just pluck up and capture somebody, and presumably kill them.

I don't know Ossomar's level, but his capture at least revolved around several costly tactics that made it seem like it might fail at any moment. Involving different magics, and 2 types of units produced by an artifact. This one just seemed way too easy, especially if Ansom is supposed to be of such a high level that there are few like him

I honestly don't see how bonus assassination isn't all that anyone does if you can just flop down on somebody and suck them up, or swoop down with mongbats and just spirit any leader away.

Ossomer: Used the displacement to get in close
Ansom: Got in close because he wanted to parly
Ossomer: Had craptons of archers and the dittomancer
Ansom: Had craptons of pikers
Ossomer: Was captured by two powerful melee units.
Ansom: Was captured by one powerful melee unit that was specialized for capturing. Also Ansom was injured.
Ossomer: Jack was hit and an archon lost
Jillian: Lost it appears two riders, and unknown as too what else.

So... both suffered two causalties, and we really arn't sure if Jillian lost more than that, since we havn't gotten another chance to see all the gwiffions lined up. Of course, Wanda was using much more valuable units, which meant she lost more when they went down. Still this makes perfect sense to me, also this seems a heck of a lot quicker because it was just one page.

And people do try bonus assassination quite a bit, its one of the key points, but most of the time you don't wander around with out air cover. Also if things had gone the other way FAQ would have lost its "bonus" and we don't know how likely that would have been... Anway, this is at least on-par for what we have seen before.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Spose even if it was weaker, it was rather anticlimactic and,

I don't know, I liked the climax (not sure climax/anticlimax is the right word though - I think whatever happens with Wanda will be "The Climax")

whether the stats support Jillian's actions or not, it was just another "Yeah I win" move from her. She's had a string of them. The one city she captured Duncan from, The Kingworld spell, and this. I'm sure there's been more.

The city and Duncan - thanks to a clever move involving Charlie turning their natural allies to Faq.
Kingworld Spell - thanks to a clever move involving Charlie...
Capturing Ansom - well yeah, although foreshadowed with Duncan. And only after her distance turning failed, Haggar got banged up and Ansom went out and signaled for a parley in his apparently archer-lite hex.

I guess there was her throwing off Wanda's control (with some Archon guidance) and messing up Parson plan, with Ansom's help, as a win in book one, but getting captured in the first place, failing in killing Stanley and loosing Ansom would losses.

Even if it's all justifiable, she's unlikable enough that watching her do nothing but win gets old, especially when she acts so undeserving.

Well, only if you think she is unlikable.

But.. this is bothering me how easy it is to just pluck up and capture somebody, and presumably kill them.

Well killing Oss was easy as well once he was captured. Oss was a hard catch because he was strong as was his position. Wanda's only choice was to knock him out so he could be hauled back to safety. Wanda could only knock him out by getting Ansom in close. Ansom could only get in close by... Well, we saw.

Ansom's position wasn't strong against flyers and he was exposed once those pikers were squashed, which Oss wasn't. As I said earlier if Jillian replaced Wanda and her forces in trying to capture Oss and tried a similar tactic to this I imagine it would end badly for her. She'd have failed were GK succeeded because she'd lack the tools needed to extract Oss without getting shot to pieces. Likewise if Ansom had been on a dwagon or his carpet it might have been far harder as well.

I don't know Ossomar's level, but his capture at least revolved around several costly tactics that made it seem like it might fail at any moment. Involving different magics, and 2 types of units produced by an artifact.

Because Oss's position was so strong. They needed the displacement to get close because of how dangerous Jetstone's anti-air capabilities were, they needed the Archons in order to shock away Oss's support, they needed Ansom in order to knock Oss out so he could be hauled out in a net.

I honestly don't see how bonus assassination isn't all that anyone does if you can just flop down on somebody and suck them up, or swoop down with mongbats and just spirit any leader away.

I imagine because it isn't that easy. Situations where a unit suddenly finds itself without any support (Duncan) or temporarily exposed (Ansom) while facing a unit very good at capturing (like Megalos - produced by one small kingdom) aren't common. Of course Duncan didn't even try to fight and already injured Ansom didn't really have a chance (what with a marshmallow whale landing on him).

For some reason GK's pink dwagons spring to mind - one of the weaker types yes, but that gum attack it pretty damn good. If you can get close enough to use it then it seems it can incapacitate a unit for the duration of that turn at least, and almost certainly would make them rather easy to kill I imagine.

[BLANDCorporatio]

In what is a comic heavily based on war-gaming, the character whose tactical finesse can be summed up in 'beat it until it stops moving' should not have the sort of power Jillian has within the story.

But Stanley does, and always has.

Does nobody see that Jillian's completely analoguous to him?

That is so wrong I'm not believing it.

Let's look at Jillian's place in Erfworld, shall we.

She is loved by almost everyone who knows her better than a mere name (Wanda; Jack; former Ansom; Vinnie; Duncan; probably Vanna too). She is receiving the, arguably foolhardy (was she really the best ally now come on!), support of Charlie and Don. Both are putting significant resources to back her up. Even the plot favours her. Presumably, Book 2 is mostly about exploring her relationship with the many people who fawn over her, romantically/sexually/respectfully whatever.

Jillian is, in fact, the main character of Erfworld.

Jessus Booping Christ, WHY?!

What had she done to deserve the support of Charlie or the Don? Oh sure she gets results now that she got the money for the Megs, the Turnamancer and the Archons, what did she do to deserve the support in the first place?

I will ask, what has she done, what is she, beyond a 2D sword-thumper, to deserve the love of all those characters? Love is blind, but come on, everybody has the exact same blindness?!

And you think Jillian and Stanley are equivalent?!

Stanley is not very tactful and so on. The difference is that Stanley is, at best, a tragic side-player in all of this, doomed to fail because he stepped way out of his league.

You can say, so did Jillian; she's no cleverer than Stanley, but instead Fate makes her win time and again. Annoying.

[HandofShadows]

Has Jillian really won anything though? Oh she captured Ansom, but what will it get her in the end? My bet is she will in the end gain nothing and end up loosing something further down the line. The same thing happend to Ansom in the first book. He kept on winning but in the end what did he get? He got croaked by a twoll. Don't judge things in Erfworld until things have played out.

[HailGreen28]

Well, the maybe-wounded-warlord plus half of Haggar's army and their Chief Warlord croaked. Don't forget that - as Sammy said, they were going in as the first wave, and so they did. First wave to soften up the position, second wave to deal the killing blow.

And, even before the first wave, Jillian was attacking a far weaker position - a Chief Warlord, no casters, either no or little archery and other warlords (we certainly didn't see any, though apparently there were a few), compared to a hex with three casters, a stack full of noble warlords, the Chief Warlord AND the next-in-line for CW status.

Heck, you can compare it shot for shot. The damage to Ansom was done because the pink goop could only disable one of the two of Oss and Trem; in Jillian's assault, she only needed to disable Ansom. The damage to the archons and Jack was done by the arrows - quadrupled by a dittomancer, whereas Ansom had little archery and no dittomancer.

As Parson said, Ansom going down was just a matter of time, and it was a question of how much damage he could do before being taken. He successfully killed a CW and Royal Heir from Haggar before being captured - that's MORE than Ossomer's capture cost.

Ansom Gotti put it a lot better than I did. But to summarize: Jillian PAID FAR LESS OF A COST THAN WANDA DID. And also WITH PRACTICALLY NO PREP AND PLANNING LIKE WANDA HAD TO.

I spelled it out for you earlier, again a recap:

Wanda's losses: 1 Archon killed, 1 Caster disabled, other dwagons and archons wounded and possibly killed. And that was after they had completely disabled the escorting infantry when going in.

Jillian Sue's losses: A crying mego-gwiff, other gwiffs wounded and possibly warlords and other gwiffs killed or wounded. And that was barging into an infantry hex that WASN'T worn down much if even negligibly. We saw Twolls with battle damage, but JS even called off Haggar's first wave after Sammy went down. Still plenty of active and able infantry still escorting Ansom, yet Jillian Sue wins with no problem.

HUGE difference there. And the careful planners had to work for it, the Mary Sue didn't. And like AG said, she didn't even pay for what little prep work WAS done.

Now I'm not saying it's a bad story or bad writing. There are plenty of good Mary Sues out there. Jack Sparrow, James Bond, Wonder Woman, Superman, etc. I like the current story a lot, Jillian Sue included. Just call it what it is, she's a Mary Sue. I'm fine with that, just like you need a good villain sometimes, this story is good with her, like it was with Ansom in the first book.

Hell, in some ways she *is* a villian. Kinda like Catwoman. Not all bad, but not a hero. Typically a villain is strictly in it for themselves, screw everybody else, and maybe some megalomania or other psychotic behavior. Jillian isn't the nicest person in the world, the way she threatened Webinar and Caesar over insults and bad news, but it describes Jillian Sue pretty well.

And we've seen this before, last book Ansom was making the ass-pulls, and it turned out to be a great story. Just laughing at comments that Jillian isn't doing kinda the same here.

And yeah, maybe some people need to review what a Mary Sue is: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Hell, Jillian Sue even fits most of these descriptions and offshoots:

* Black Hole Sue — Everything is about me! - the whole story
* Purity Sue — Love me! - pines over whether to bag ansom in the tent, later does it in the open field
* God Mode Sue — Power overwhelming! - 2nd book
* Mary Tzu —I knew you would do that. In fact, I knew you would do that before I even met you, cuz I'm JUST THAT GOOD! - playing wanda this book
* Jerk Sue — I'm mean and obnoxious...love me! - the whole story
* Possession Sue — My favourite character is an even better version of me! - not yet
* Copy Cat Sue — I'm just like my favorite character, but even kewler! - not yet
* Relationship Sue — You're my boyfriend now! - wanda, ansom, vinnie, back to ansom
* Sympathetic Sue — Feel sorry for me! - whole book
* Anti Sue — I'm genuinely useless, but everybody still loves me! - kinda the first book, everybody except webinar loved her (so of course he meets a grisly graphic end soon afterwards)
* Villain Sue — I have you now, my beautiful slaves! Ahahahahahahaha! - Lobot and the rest of her minions 2nd book
* Fixer Sue — No, that's not how it's supposed to go! - whole story
* Parody Sue — Why don't they fall for my buxom charms? - whole story
* Thirty Sue Pileup — We are Legion. - pretty much Jillian Sue to a T.

It's not bad writing. Jillian's a well written character, and I think a good character to root against. Just call her what she is: Jillian Sue.

One more thing, anybody who says Charlie, Don, or Slately "controls" her is delusional. Yes Don and Charlie have invested heavily on her, but from all three characters perspective it's pretty laughable that she'd do anything for them that she doesn't want to do for her own reasons. That's part of her charm or reason to dislike her. You don't so much order her, as just point her in the general direction and hope she decides to do for herself that will also benefit you. Kinda like taking a spastic beagle out hunting and hoping he'll decide to have fun jumping a rabbit, rather than having fun running with the local dogs playing instead.

[HailGreen28]

Of course Duncan didn't even try to fight and already injured Ansom didn't really have a chance (what with a marshmallow whale landing on him).

I would love to see Ansom or another high level character burst OUT of a Mego-Gwiff in that situation. Like an Alien Chestburster, LOL.