HailGreen28 wrote:Ansom Gotti put it a lot better than I did. But to summarize: Jillian PAID FAR LESS OF A COST THAN WANDA DID. And also WITH PRACTICALLY NO PREP AND PLANNING LIKE WANDA HAD TO.
And I think a number have people have pointed out the circumstances between the two captures are quite different. Why should Jillian have paid an equal or greater cost then Wanda and why did Ansom's capture require equal or greater complex prep/planning?
Ansom's position was weaker and he was more exposed. He didn't have to be knocked out because Megalos can incapacitate so it wasn't necessary to get a powerful fighter in there to disarm him. He didn't have tons of archers with caster support, so it wasn't necessary to use magic to cover the approach so the megalos/riders weren't shot out of the sky. Megalos are good at capturing, so Jillian didn't need to get extra forces with nets in safely in order to pick him up. And he wasn't in a stack of noble warlords, plus he was on a Spidew which, thanks to its size, would keep units from closing in to protect him, so it was only necessary to eliminate the few pikers to either side so Jillian could safely land on that rather large Spider-shaped target.
And that was barging into an infantry hex that WASN'T worn down much if even negligibly. We saw Twolls with battle damage, but JS even called off Haggar's first wave after Sammy went down. Still plenty of active and able infantry still escorting Ansom, yet Jillian Sue wins with no problem.
We don't know how great GK losses were, since the decrypted dust when they die. And yes - an infantry hex. Good for fighting other infantry, not for fighting flyers, unless archers are also present. We didn't see much in the way of missile troops (none in fact). And yes, there was still plenty of infantry - shame for Ansom he wasn't back with them when Jillian struck, he was out in front and only lightly protected by some pikers who had marshmallow whales land on them.
Plus Jillian only called Haggar off after she distracted Sammy to death and
found out their objective was to dust Ansom. She'd have known how costly their attack would have been before they went in.
HUGE difference there.
I think the huge difference that needs to be considered is the position Oss was in compared to Ansom, not the costs inflicted during the successful captures.
And re-read Wanda's attack again. MISDIRECTION: Wanda actually used misdirection, with Jack making it appear the attack was AWAY from where Ossomer was. With the displacement illusion. Meanwhile Jillian Sue used NO MISDIRECTION OF ANY KIND. She just barreled in a frontal assault, using her units as a meat shield in front of her similar to her attack on Stanley in the mountain gap. Ansom flatly called out that Jillian's fliers were "ENGAGING", so no misdirection or even subtlety there.
Why is misdirection or subtlety important or necessary here? Or that Jillian doesn't have it sign of... well, not good things? Wanda needed misdirection because they'd have been shot to pieces if they'd attacked without it and Oss and his warlords would have been on guard.
Jillian had the freedom to be direct. She's told Ansom is signaling, can see he is out in the open - she tells two megalo riders to hit the pikers on either side of Ansom spidew so she can safely grab him. Now complex plans are very nice, I like seeing them, but simple plans come up with on the spot when a character sees an opening are also nice. They can show initiative and quick thinking.
I would love to see Ansom or another high level character burst OUT of a Mego-Gwiff in that situation. Like an Alien Chestburster, LOL.
That would be pretty funny. I am wondering what Ansom was signaling Jillian for - I guess he could have been planning to preach toolism at her, but maybe he has a plan. Maybe he would have surrendered in order to get a bit closer to Wanda/Trem...
Well, I guess we'll wait and see.
Watsit Hoohow wrote:Frankly, I'm a little troubled at the ramifications of it being so easy to just capture an enemy warlord like that. No casualties, minor-to-moderate (and the latter's a bit of a stretch) damage, etc.
I think Chief Warlords are usually in a better position then this. BfGK at least Parson was safely inside the whole time, Oss was tucked away with his forces, Ansom is usually on his carpet or with his men. Plus only one side has Megalogwiff we know of, and for 700 turns hasn't been producing. Plus it for as long as we have known been fairly small.
Of course as I have been saying circumstances matter. The two times we have seen Jillian pull off a capture like this the warlords have been in bad positions. With Duncan it looks like capturing him was always the plan - get him in the open with a parley request and when he is unprotected nab him. With Ansom it looks like she saw an opening where he was exposed and took it.
Now their biggest warlord is out of the game. Something about that just doesn't jive for fairness. Sure, GK was lacking archers, but we've yet to see anything that causes legitimate damage to Megalo's.
I imagine certain flyers could. We know Wanda was going to be able to defeat them if it came to a fight. And they probably can't engulf a flyer like they do with someone on the ground.
Those things have spears in them like a pincushion (and I'm going to assume here that Spears are just as good as arrows for damage here) and the worst of it is only that one of them seems to be crying. Some archers here or there don't seem like they'd make a difference.
Well their riders, like a dwagons rider, are probably a lot more fragile. Take Jack for example - his dwagon wasn't really hurt, he was.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.