Book 2 – Text Updates 021

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:15 pm

If Wanda can decrypt units not in the airspace the battle should be short and quick. Some dwagons accidentally get stabbed in the head, and then get decrypted on the tower and roast Slately. Wanda should definitly test that.


Jack's statement about Wanda needing to be quick to catch them as they fall implies that they need to be decrypted while still in the airspace.
Last edited by DoctorJest on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby HandofShadows » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:21 pm

splintermute wrote:
effataigus wrote:Also, I don't think it makes a difference if it's a natural ability or spell - the archons were able to use their illusions, but their attacks/magic couldn't cross the zone boundary. A caster (if the archons happened to be carrying one at the time) would have been in the same situation.


While attacks/magic cannot cross a boundary it seems that things CAN fall through the boundary (bodies). What would happen is a yellow dwagon started dropping battle crap as it flew but was not making an attack with it? Would it vanish or would it still hit the ground and either croak what it hit or serve as a barrier to enemy units?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby djones520 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:43 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
If Wanda can decrypt units not in the airspace the battle should be short and quick. Some dwagons accidentally get stabbed in the head, and then get decrypted on the tower and roast Slately. Wanda should definitly test that.


Jack's statement about Wanda needing to be quick to catch them as they fall implies that they need to be decrypted while still in the airspace.


Or he just doesn't want them decrypted were ground units can get at them.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby gazes_also » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:55 pm

I think Jack is thinking survival not counter attack, he's also not proposing to get croaked, just that Wanda decrypt his dwagon if it gets shot out from under him.

The problems as I see it are numerous. Does Wanda need to be at the lowest level to 'catch' the falling dwagons while Jack veils her? Kind of risky.
He's counting on forces staying as they are and having to kill everything twice will exhaust the resources of the defending forces before they can eliminate the leadership, but if Trammenis returns with additional archers AND the Dittomancer, that seems less likely.
If it does work they will still be left with a significantly reduced force and still have to get through Charlie's turn on the next day before they can move.
If they get through all that how will Stanley react to Wanda using up his tool-derived units and converting them into hers.
Seems like clutching at a Jack straw (sorry, couldn't resist it)

Finally, couldn't help noticing the allusion to the quote from which I take my username:
Lady Firebaugh sat straighter in the saddle, staring at him in a way she often used to make others shrink away. But he held her gaze. The chasm behind her eyes did not intimidate him. Could she look as long into the abyss of his own?


"When you gaze into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you"
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Dunham » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:02 pm

It's safe to say that a battle will take place, that Wanda and her's will be attacked in the airspace, but I don't think it's going to happen yet, because as it stands, if Trammenis returns with his forces and the dittomancer, Wanda doesn't really have a chance, decrypting and cloaking and everything. The Dittomancer and CW bonus would see to that, which leads me to believe that that isn't going to happen.
There's a lot that can happen, and Jillian's already got one of her heart throbs. I don't see Wanda and co. dying, and I definitely see a surprise coming.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:15 pm

Dunham wrote:It's safe to say that a battle will take place, that Wanda and her's will be attacked in the airspace, but I don't think it's going to happen yet, because as it stands, if Trammenis returns with his forces and the dittomancer, Wanda doesn't really have a chance, decrypting and cloaking and everything. The Dittomancer and CW bonus would see to that, which leads me to believe that that isn't going to happen.
There's a lot that can happen, and Jillian's already got one of her heart throbs. I don't see Wanda and co. dying, and I definitely see a surprise coming.


Sorry, but I'm not sure how you can make that assertion given that we don't really have any hard data or other way to compare apples to apples? All of the mechanics are somewhat vague, after all. And Tramennis' CW bonus will be more than nullified by Ossomer or Sylvia's CW bonus, I imagine.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby djones520 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:20 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Dunham wrote:It's safe to say that a battle will take place, that Wanda and her's will be attacked in the airspace, but I don't think it's going to happen yet, because as it stands, if Trammenis returns with his forces and the dittomancer, Wanda doesn't really have a chance, decrypting and cloaking and everything. The Dittomancer and CW bonus would see to that, which leads me to believe that that isn't going to happen.
There's a lot that can happen, and Jillian's already got one of her heart throbs. I don't see Wanda and co. dying, and I definitely see a surprise coming.


Sorry, but I'm not sure how you can make that assertion given that we don't really have any hard data or other way to compare apples to apples? All of the mechanics are somewhat vague, after all. And Tramennis' CW bonus will be more than nullified by Ossomer or Sylvia's CW bonus, I imagine.


If they are made CW in time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Squishalot » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:24 pm

splintermute wrote:
Squishalot wrote:Anyway, it's my view that Wanda and the dwagons will be able to return fire if attacked from the ground and the tower, but not move from their aerial position, based on the evidence. This means that the dragons will be able to use their breath attacks (limited usage per day/encounter, based on what we've seen in the past) but not melee. This still opens up a wide array of possible defences - blow-popping entrances to parapets and so forth.

It'd be interesting to see if decryption is a 'natural ability' or a 'spell' - after all, the Archons could use natural abilities to influence the battle for Gobwin Knob, so...

Where have we seen dwagons with limited breath attacks?

Also, I don't think it makes a difference if it's a natural ability or spell - the archons were able to use their illusions, but their attacks/magic couldn't cross the zone boundary. A caster (if the archons happened to be carrying one at the time) would have been in the same situation.

GK's situation right now is most analogous to that of the archons at tBfGK after Charlie ended turn - whatever limitations applied to them also apply to Wanda's dwagon squad now.

Certain comments, certain fight scenes. Jillian's comment when she's engaging Stanley - "get that out of your system" - when her gwiffons get roasted, seems to imply that there's either a limit on breath attacks or a long cooldown. But in the context of TBS games, it's more likely to be a turn/encounter-based limit.

Also, consider that we've never seen dwagons use more than one breath attack in a single turn. Jillian's assault on the wounded dwagons would have been much shorter lived if they could have just burst the archons and gwiffons down with breath attacks.

I agree that whatever limitations applied to the archons apply to Wanda's squad. But by the same token, the archons seemed to take somewhat... liberal views of the game mechanics. I mean, they applied a dance-fighting leadership bonus to troops in a different city area to them (it was specifically identified as foolamancy and leadership in one of the Summer Updates).

Still, probably the biggest game-flaw is that Parson, Maggie, Wanda and Sizemore were able to move to the Magic Kingdom, I think.

trotsky wrote:However, you must also consider that the Archons attacking GW in book 1 could not directly assist Ansom by attacking the ground force, despite parson having Maggie casting disruption spells on them. You could argue that only the Archons being targeted could fight back, but that seems overly complicated and rather silly (which does not mean it couldn't be the case). Taking that into consideration, the evidence seems to point more towards Archers being limited in some fashion as to the damage they can deal to Wanda's group and that it is insufficient to guarantee her death, requiring the direct attack of flying units.


No, any archons in the airspace would reasonably be capable of fighting back, I agree. They're one giant stack, as far as we know. But sending a Thinkagram to someone wouldn't entitle them to start acting or casting off-turn - perhaps the disruption spells were similar? If someone is concentrating hard on something, you can disrupt them by talking to them, for example.

That doesn't explain the lack of reaction to the air defences, though I don't think they had much left. But consider the fact that the archons weren't obliged to volunteer any services, Ansom was required to ask them to perform actions. So the lack of reaction might simply be because Ansom didn't request any. (pushing it a bit...)

Anyway, with that in mind, one would suggest that if Jillian doesn't get involved, there won't be sufficient flying units on Jetstone's side to do anything serious to Wanda's group, given Jack's planning. He could aim to be the last unit to die and be revived if necessary - they could wipe out all the other dwagons twice before he needs to be decrypted.

djones520 wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:
If Wanda can decrypt units not in the airspace the battle should be short and quick. Some dwagons accidentally get stabbed in the head, and then get decrypted on the tower and roast Slately. Wanda should definitly test that.

Jack's statement about Wanda needing to be quick to catch them as they fall implies that they need to be decrypted while still in the airspace.

Or he just doesn't want them decrypted were ground units can get at them.


Exactly. There are a number of reasons why it's bad:

1) We've already established that dead units that fall through are likely to be disposed of very quickly by Trammenis and co, who won't be certain (like us) of whether decryption works across city boundaries;

2) Dwagons on the ground will be susceptible to attack by melee forces; and

3) Dwagons on the ground will mean that Wanda loses her air cover.

It's not necessarily purely due to not being able to decrypt.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby kriss » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:05 pm

HandofShadows wrote:
splintermute wrote:
effataigus wrote:Also, I don't think it makes a difference if it's a natural ability or spell - the archons were able to use their illusions, but their attacks/magic couldn't cross the zone boundary. A caster (if the archons happened to be carrying one at the time) would have been in the same situation.


While attacks/magic cannot cross a boundary it seems that things CAN fall through the boundary (bodies). What would happen is a yellow dwagon started dropping battle crap as it flew but was not making an attack with it? Would it vanish or would it still hit the ground and either croak what it hit or serve as a barrier to enemy units?


Hmm seems like a sort of variation of the brick idea Parson had. Be interesting to see if sombody came up with it.

On a compleatly unrelated tangent, I can forsee Parson just calling them and handing them a solution we never thought of that keeps them all (especialy Jack) alive.
I think therefore I am. This leaves you in a bad spot.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Dunham » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:56 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Dunham wrote:It's safe to say that a battle will take place, that Wanda and her's will be attacked in the airspace, but I don't think it's going to happen yet, because as it stands, if Trammenis returns with his forces and the dittomancer, Wanda doesn't really have a chance, decrypting and cloaking and everything. The Dittomancer and CW bonus would see to that, which leads me to believe that that isn't going to happen.
There's a lot that can happen, and Jillian's already got one of her heart throbs. I don't see Wanda and co. dying, and I definitely see a surprise coming.


Sorry, but I'm not sure how you can make that assertion given that we don't really have any hard data or other way to compare apples to apples? All of the mechanics are somewhat vague, after all. And Tramennis' CW bonus will be more than nullified by Ossomer or Sylvia's CW bonus, I imagine.


Well, if they couldn't take out Wanda's forces, then what's the point? Admittedly, Stately had assumed Jillian's help in the matter, if not her outright killing them altogether, but I think it's safe to say that the willing forces there could defeat Wanda's, if for flavor reasons alone. If they can't, then there wouldn't be much reason to worry; Wanda just takes some losses and bails next turn.
So yes, it is speculation, and I lack hard data, but it's more predicting the flavor than the mechanics. Either way, I look foreword to watching it play out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:39 am

Dunham wrote:Well, if they couldn't take out Wanda's forces, then what's the point? Admittedly, Stately had assumed Jillian's help in the matter, if not her outright killing them altogether, but I think it's safe to say that the willing forces there could defeat Wanda's, if for flavor reasons alone. If they can't, then there wouldn't be much reason to worry; Wanda just takes some losses and bails next turn.
So yes, it is speculation, and I lack hard data, but it's more predicting the flavor than the mechanics. Either way, I look foreword to watching it play out.


I don't know about the bonuses, I guess it depends on what Trem can bring back to Spacerock with him. Can either/both his army and Haggar head back there? And Jillian is a wild card.

Still, I think you're right. I imagine chances of victory are far more in the RCCII favour then Wanda's. The only reason she rushed in with the dwagons like that is because Parson didn't like their chances if she gave the RCCII forces the chance to get into place. And that was Wanda with the GK ground forces. So they were trying to take out Jetstone in one fell swoop. Now it is just Wanda and the dwagons above their enemies capital city.

Plus Parson is worried about the situation now, presumably most of the calcs he is running at the moment back up his concerns.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Ditto » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:29 am

Either/both can definitely return to the capital this turn. They're only a hex or two away and haven't spent any move this turn .That's what Wanda's team is afraid of - when the full archery complement + casters + CWL arrive, the numbers turn rapidly to suck for GK.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby effataigus » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:02 pm

splintermute wrote:I was thinking of something similar. The problem is, even if everything is decrypted, the one corpse RCC II is going to need to see and touch is Wanda's.

Good point! Well good, I'd rather not have a best-case scenario where Jack ends up decrypted. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:28 pm

Dunham wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
Dunham wrote:It's safe to say that a battle will take place, that Wanda and her's will be attacked in the airspace, but I don't think it's going to happen yet, because as it stands, if Trammenis returns with his forces and the dittomancer, Wanda doesn't really have a chance, decrypting and cloaking and everything. The Dittomancer and CW bonus would see to that, which leads me to believe that that isn't going to happen.
There's a lot that can happen, and Jillian's already got one of her heart throbs. I don't see Wanda and co. dying, and I definitely see a surprise coming.


Sorry, but I'm not sure how you can make that assertion given that we don't really have any hard data or other way to compare apples to apples? All of the mechanics are somewhat vague, after all. And Tramennis' CW bonus will be more than nullified by Ossomer or Sylvia's CW bonus, I imagine.


Well, if they couldn't take out Wanda's forces, then what's the point? Admittedly, Stately had assumed Jillian's help in the matter, if not her outright killing them altogether, but I think it's safe to say that the willing forces there could defeat Wanda's, if for flavor reasons alone. If they can't, then there wouldn't be much reason to worry; Wanda just takes some losses and bails next turn.
So yes, it is speculation, and I lack hard data, but it's more predicting the flavor than the mechanics. Either way, I look foreword to watching it play out.


You said, "If Tramennis returns with his forces and the dittomancer, Wanda doesn't really have a chance." I just don't think we have nearly enough data to support that belief. On the contrary, I think we're being set up for Tramennis returning with all of his forces after a quick mop-up of the GK ground troops, and then Wanda using Jack's decrypted-dwagon gambit to survive all of the ammo and spells that the RCC2 can throw at them.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Reclaimer » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:19 pm

Here's a good question: Will Trem actually go back to the city? Even without him (And consider he has no knowledge of Jack's plan), he knows that there's more than enough anti-air to wipe Wanda's whole taskforce. If he does return, he leaves Haggar (Who just payed a bloody, horrible price for RCII's benefit) with their dicks hanging out, right in front of a ravening army of the undead, since they have no move left. Most, if not all, of Ansom's warlords are gone (If not with Wanda, then prolly 'cause they died in battle with Haggar), so the remaining units would most likely pursue and kill the closest enemy, which would be Haggar.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby ftl » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:36 pm

Reclaimer wrote: so the remaining units would most likely pursue and kill the closest enemy, which would be Haggar.


Unled units automatically engage other units in the same hex; but movement between hexes is done only when given orders from a commander or their overlord/ruler. So they wouldn't automatically go attack an army in an adjacent hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby ftl » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:44 pm

Reclaimer wrote:Here's a good question: Will Trem actually go back to the city? Even without him (And consider he has no knowledge of Jack's plan), he knows that there's more than enough anti-air to wipe Wanda's whole taskforce.


I don't think there's enough Anti-air without him - if there was, then there wouldn't have been that big worry about Wanda taking the city by air! No, I think that without Tramennis's support, Wanda's got a pretty good chance of living and possibly even taking the city on her next turn, and Tramennis knows it. He might try to finish off Ansom's unled forces and then go back to the city, or just leave them and then go back to the city, but I don't think he'll end another turn with all of those casters and himself and that giant army doing something other than defending their capital.

If he does return, he leaves Haggar (Who just payed a bloody, horrible price for RCII's benefit) with their dicks hanging out, right in front of a ravening army of the undead, since they have no move left.


Remember, Tramennis knew perfectly well that Haggar was planning on betraying them. I think he'd be perfectly happy to let GK and Haggar's forces beat each other up - after all, that's exactly what Haggar wanted to do to them!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby Dunham » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:16 pm

So, question i don't think has been addressed yet: Exactly what strategy were Wanda's generals providing that were supposed to please her, yet not work?
The 'my father will offer ceremonial surrender terms" doesn't seem like it would please anyone or work, so what was Jack talking about?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby ftl » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:02 pm

Dunham wrote:So, question i don't think has been addressed yet: Exactly what strategy were Wanda's generals providing that were supposed to please her, yet not work?
The 'my father will offer ceremonial surrender terms" doesn't seem like it would please anyone or work, so what was Jack talking about?


I don't think we need to read too deeply into that.

Perhaps strategies that are heavily loaded with "I am always ready to give my life for you, mistress! We will stay with you and fight until our last breath!" Sure, sounds impressive, very nice to promise to put your life on the line for someone you love, but completely devoid of tactical planning and mostly empty bravado. Or maybe plans that come down to "we could croak two-thirds of their army before they croak us all!" Sure, again, sounds impressive - it's flattering to hear that even with a specialized strike force, you have the power to take down most of the army of a kingdom like Jetstone - but it's not *useful*, a plan that involves croaking nearly nothing and in exchange staying alive is better.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 021

Postby ftl » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:13 pm

Speaking of which, I suspect the key insight is going to be something like - they DON'T need to inflict maximum casualties on the enemy. Just survive.

Something like spending the entire time doing evasive maneuvers instead of fighting.

Ooh, here's a crazy plan - Create a bunch of foolamancy dwagons. HOWEVER - have NO DWAGONS EVER ATTACK! Then, the archery on the ground will have no way of seeing which dwagons are real and which aren't, since Jack can happily make it look like some of the fake ones got arrows stuck in them too, or make it look like the real ones didn't. (If the archery successfully croaks some of the Dwagons, decrypt immediately. The decrypted ones, if they get croaked, get dusted and leave no bodies - immediately create a fake dwagon in their spot! Thus, for the duration of the entire battle, the archers will *never* have any idea whether they're firing at the right dwagons, and will never have any idea whether they hit any of them.) (I like this idea, actually! Maybe even possible! And it does take a crucial unusual insight that's worthy of Parson - that you can survive a battle by never firing a single shot, and that sitting there and taking hits is, in fact *preferable* to fighting back if it means you get to keep up the disguise.)
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