Book 2 – Text Updates 021

[JustDoug]

Regarding the whole "a side can't cast during the enemy's turn" thing, I suppose I should ask some questions regarding turn-based RPGs (my own experience is related only to dungeon-crawling adventurere parties, and is about 28 years out-of-date anyway, so please bear with my ignorance):
...

If you don't mind a semi-sizeable download, have some spare time and are curious about what Turn Based Strategy is like: http://www.wesnoth.org/ It's a Free and runs on just about anything. It's also not at all flashy, being on the somewhat primitive and Old School end of things but might be worth checking out. It's also mildly hackable if you're of a technical bent.

If nothing else, play through the tutorials. You'll develop a much greater understanding and appreciation of what Erf's TBS "physics" is all about and why things are done the way they do them there. It's not in any way a perfect anaolgue for Erfworld - there are likely games that come much closer - but the essentials translate very well. Just imagine those icons skittering around as groups of real people while wondering what it would look like to them, and things will be much clearer when reading the comic here.

[The Shadow]

Nobody's mentioned the line I find the most fascinating in the whole update:

Habitually, he sought out the lines and dots of the scenery, the little hooks that other minds used to build their idea of the world around them.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it almost sounds like Jack sees the world in a totally different way - well, of course, but I mean beyond his bizarre, semi-sane individual outlook. :) Are foolamancers like Neo, seeing the code behind the world?

If killed by a bastard sword, the target tastes key lime pi.

Oh, that is BAAAAAD! I salute you, sir!

In most respects dungeons and dragons plays out in the same way as real time combat.

I got a good, long, hearty laugh out of this one. I know what you *meant*, but still. :)

[BLANDCorporatio]

If you don't mind a semi-sizeable download, have some spare time and are curious about what Turn Based Strategy is like: http://www.wesnoth.org/ It's a Free and runs on just about anything. It's also not at all flashy, being on the somewhat primitive and Old School end of things but might be worth checking out. It's also mildly hackable if you're of a technical bent.

Oh, yes. Armed with Notepad, I was a God of Warfare. Take THAT, insanely difficult campaign, how'd you like it when I do the mind boop on ya instead?

Seriously, Notepads are terribly imba in that game. Once you can summon them, it's pretty much over.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Heh, Sylvia looks so unimpressed with Jack.

"Love is in the air - everywhere I glare around"

{clarified} whether is Sylvia source of ideas or just bonuses and intense glares.

*eye-daggers*

Wh-, huh? Pff! Fine, but one of these days GK will have to win a staring competition, and even Jack may need some help. And then we'll see, I tell ya!

[Menlo Marseilles]

Habitually, he sought out the lines and dots of the scenery, the little hooks that other minds used to build their idea of the world around them.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it almost sounds like Jack sees the world in a totally different way - well, of course, but I mean beyond his bizarre, semi-sane individual outlook. Are foolamancers like Neo, seeing the code behind the world?

I think this was discussed in Jack's previous "viewpoint" Text Update. Basically, Foolamancy involves looking at the world as objectively as possible - without assigning any meaning to it or trying to create any narrative out of it - and then, at the same time, being able to look at it from another person's viewpoint, the way they would see it. (The vast differences that become apparent with this approach is cited as one reason why so many Foolamancers seem a bit off their rockers to others.)

[SteveMB]

Heh, Sylvia looks so unimpressed with Jack. And it does look rather bad for her and Oss - Jack pointing out most of the units there are alive and can be preserved, maybe, if Wanda can decrypt them fast enough.

If Wanda does escape using that strategem, and ends up with a large number of decrypted dwagons, Stanley's reaction should prove most interesting....

[technojunkie]

While I don't wanna see Jack croaked/decrypted. I am faced with the probable awesomeness of Jack being restored to perfect condition (including his mind). The possibilities raised by being again in full control of his faculties with a full tank of juice AND newly learned tactical applications are, to put it bluntly, mind blowing.

This assumes of course that Jack will be able to cast after decryption.

[Ansan Gotti]

Also, Charlescomm gets another turn before GK

Can I just say right here in advance that I will be tremendously annoyed if Wanda staves off the RCC, only to be blackmailed into joining Charlie "or else" right afterward?

Other than that hopefully unlikely speculation, AWESOME update!

[teratorn]

But although it must have happened during the retaking of the previously held cities and any new conquests, we have not yet seen an example of a former living GK unit which has been decrypted. Unless I've missed something?

Yep, you do miss stuff, and in the comic not in the text updates. Book 1, page 159 panel 2, page 160 panel 6. Decrypted gobwins.

[technojunkie]

Something just hit me (yes it hurt).

Jack's interior monologue refers to picking which group of archers get to shoot at them... All units in the city can switch zones without using any move... basically every archer in the city has an opportunity to shoot at the fliers... Just maybe not at all once.

I can't wait to see how they get dug out of this.

[Anias]

If deploying to the airspace above the tower or the walls determines who can shoot you...hmmm...
So, theoretically, they could use dwagons as meat shields and decrypt them as they fell, getting more meat shields - seems to be what they're planning
But I have to wonder - the tower, for example, is a relatively small area - if you covered the entire tower with dwagon corpses (shouldn't require more than half a dozen or so, I'm guessing) would the archers even be able to get to positions in the tower where they could shoot?
Or for that matter, we know that arrows stick in hex boundaries (see the capture of Ossomer) so (as mentioned on previous threads)...could they create a wall of gum/battlecrap, augmented by the disguise of foolamancy, the smoke/gas of the dwagons, constant movement, decryption of the croaked...they've actually got a lot of options!

P.S. Yes, I know I'm rambling and not all of what I'm saying makes any sense at all. But that's about normal for me.

[Tiger]

For anyone still arguing over the casting rules: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... ost5931853

Also, the "Word of the Titans" wiki article has a complete index of everything the creators have said about the rules, ever.

[Reclaimer]

Archers: If unlimited ammo and can always target you, you need to kill if possible. If limited ammo then run odds on whether try to kill or try to dodge arrows.

Unlimited ammo would equate to infinite attack power; there would have to be a hard limit on ammunition or else you could just post up a few archers and waaait to change the turn until everything in the square's dead. That or relative time progresses with each shot fired. The physics are kinda weird, but I hope you get what I'm saying. Three shots are fired in the same time it takes for a leader in another hex to give detailed combat plans to a lieutenant, for example.

A unit with a set damage output can only put out that much damage in a turn, regardless of how much flavor text is involved in the description of his attacks.

Also, Charlescomm gets another turn before GK

Good point. I stand by my earlier prediction that he won't be getting directly involved in the actual fight. Still leaves a lot of options open for him though...

Can I just say right here in advance that I will be tremendously annoyed if Wanda staves off the RCC, only to be blackmailed into joining Charlie "or else" right afterward?

Hear, hear.

[Hatu]

Where are these exceptions?
The only thing I can think of that was a bit confusing was the Archons in the courtyard, but that was explained by Rob as being due to them having allied, and sharing the Alliance's turn. (Though their move was still at 0).
You seem to be clutching at straws that don't exist.

Depending on what you call "casting" the original trimancer setup might count. It was able to detect enemy units in unengaged hexes and project a display of those units in Gobwin Knob, which was not engaged at the time, either. In fact, during the "donut of doom" event, the Eyemancers were able to monitor Jillian's progress across the mab even when no GK units (as far as we know) were in enemy-occupied hexes.

It's quite likely that Thinkamancy and Lookamancy are intended to be exceptions to the "can't cast outside your turn" rule, but that still leaves the Foolamancy tactical display. Perhaps that was only possible due to the trimancery, or perhaps simple displays like that don't qualify as "casting." Personally, I consider the entire rule to be as flexible and misleading as any other "rule" in Erfworld, so I'm not too worried about just how the exceptions are classified.

A bastard sword could do 3.14 hit points of damage but we just ignore the decimals most of the time.

If killed by a bastard sword, the target tastes key lime pi.

Actually, I think that would be a magnificent bastard sword.

-H

[regisminae]

While I don't wanna see Jack croaked/decrypted. I am faced with the probable awesomeness of Jack being restored to perfect condition (including his mind). The possibilities raised by being again in full control of his faculties with a full tank of juice AND newly learned tactical applications are, to put it bluntly, mind blowing.

This assumes of course that Jack will be able to cast after decryption.

Interesting... there's been enough commentary in the comic and text updates about the process of Jack regaining his sanity that I could actually see it as foreshadowing of said sanity returning...though decryption.

So, while I as well would not actually want to see that happen, it would be interesting, to say the least, to see what happens if our erstwhile Foolamancer is replaced by a cognitively cogent version of himself, with a fanatical loyalty to Wanda to boot.

Unless, of course, the Foolamancer's prerogative (to necessarily see the world unlike others) would cause Jack redux to have an as-yet-unforeseen perspective on his Mistress.

[gameboy1234]

If they weren't flying, I would have liked to have them try making a barricade between them and the archers using the dwagons(poor little dearies...) -and subsequently their corpses. Then after they have soaked as many arrows as possible on- if it happens to work- the innate bodies, Wanda goes and decrypt the lot of them.
So in short, have the enemy forces wasting arrows on the physical barrier provided by the dwagon bodies before decrypting them, thus saving their HP.

Why not make a flying barricade? They should be able to bubble gum glue dwagon corpses (dead-precrypted or alive). They could also scavenge the dwagon armor and build a little bunker for Wanda.

I'm pretty sure Erfworld mechanics don't allow dead things to fly, or float in the air at least. Also I kinda doubt that Erfworld mechanics allow corpses of any sort to give a defensive bonus (i.e., act as a barricade). That'd just be cheesy.

If magic, battle crap or breath weapons can hit the archers that should be high on the list of options. Decrypted archers could then use the arrows on the still living archers.

Stuff like this weirds me out. See, either Wanda can counter-attack, or she can't. If she can counter-attack, then she should be able to do damage and kill units, inflicting terrible losses with those dragons. I realize she doesn't have a lot of ranged attacks, but aren't dwagon breath weapons ranged? It seems like most should be. And if Wanda can attack regular like, then she sure as heck can use those pliers. I can't think of a good reason why not.

I guess we'll find out. I'm sure a pile of corpses in Jetstone might be destroyed by a quick thinking warlord (Tramennis) to prevent decryption. It will be interesting to see what mechanics Rob shows us during the actual fight. I bet Wanda could decrypt across the zone, as long as she's being attacked, but that Jetstone will be alert to that idea and take some action to prevent it. Thus, it'll be necessary to decrypt dwagons as the fall in order to decrypt at all. If you wait until the dwgons fall, Jetstone will just destroy the corpse on the ground.

The dead decrypted flyers will not fall on Jetstone troops, but arrows that miss will.

I really doubt both of these. GK fliers will surely hit the ground, just like Stanley's mount in the pass to Faq. (Admittedly that was foolamancy, but no one thought it strange what happened.) And I'd really really doubt that any attack in Erfworld can hurt the attacker just because it was pointed "up." That sort of mechanic just never happens in any sort of TBS game.

[kaylasdad99]

Many thanks to all who have take the the time to offer me instruction. You've all given me a lot to think about...

[Ditto]

I'm pretty sure Erfworld mechanics don't allow dead things to fly, or float in the air at least. Also I kinda doubt that Erfworld mechanics allow corpses of any sort to give a defensive bonus (i.e., act as a barricade). That'd just be cheesy.

I'm sure it could be done, but it's pretty tough to find the opportunity for that tactic to be useful. Remember, unless a corpse is attended to it will disappear by next turn. If Haggar dragged it's dead folks back to the edge of the bridge, that would make a wall hindering the advance of any GK forces that tried to charge across the bridge. But when their turn rolls around tomorrow, poof, gone. (Or decrypted, if Wanda makes it out that way. Oops! Angry barricade fights back!) No reason dead flying units would stay floating, though.

I think it makes sense that units can counter attack, but only within their own hex. So they could flame back if Jillian's megalos tried to nom on a dwagon, but couldn't shoot battlecrap into the city wall's zone where archers would be attacking from. If they were in an open field, I imagine they could shoot back when provoked. But it's all about who starts the fight.

I imagine there's such a thing as friendly fire in Erfworld, so they better hope the arrows hit! I think the archers would know enough to make a good crossfire, though, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Squishalot]

Why are so many people assuming that the dwagons can't fire back?

Consider:

a) The entire city area is still just one hex.

b) The idea that city boundaries are one-directional isn't in keeping with TBS games - if the archers can shoot at the dwagons, then the dwagons should be able to shoot at the archers.

c) Wanda and co's concern isn't necessarily that they're sitting ducks for defensive spells and whatnot, they also have a concern that Jetstone will send flyers and warlords after them. Why would they be thinking about that if archers could just pepper them with arrows without fear of retribution?

[Aster Azul]

(off-topic; copied to Wesnoth thread in "General Gaming" --mod)