Book 2 – Page 30

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dunham » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:47 pm

Reclaimer wrote:
fruityjanitor wrote:\Another possible theory for "why did Charlie tell Hagar to kill Ansom when he apparently was interested in seeing if he could be turned?": Charlie just wants to see if Decrypted in general can be turned (possibly so he can try to get some of his girls back), but he doesn't care what Decrypted he tests turning spells on. So he needs ANY captured, decrypted unit to try it out on. Since there are plenty of decrypted besides Ansom, he didn't care if Ansom died. But, now that Jillian has Ansom captured, Charlie might as well try it out on him.


Yeah, I think you're right, because of a certain point everyone seems to have been missing: If Decrypted can be Turned, or rendered alive again, then that's the first instance of true resurrection that we've seen so far. You can literally bring back the dead that way, and that's pretty tremendous.


So, gotta wonder, if someone was turned from Decrypted to life, could they then be croaked without being dusted, and Decrypted again? Hopefully, it'll never get that far, but still.
Dunham
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:14 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby atalex » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:53 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Danetrix wrote:If the units don't dust when Wanda is decrypted, my bet is that they become sideless and attack at will. Raging zombies!


I just have to say... that could actually be REALLY cool. ;)


Why do they even have to be zombies? What if killing Wanda simply leaves them with free will? They don't have upkeep, and if they don't have any innate Loyalty or Duty, then they are the only real free agents in Erfworld. Barbarians and, I assume, independent casters still disband if they can't afford to pay upkeep, but Decrypted don't have that limitation.
atalex
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dunham » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:52 pm

[quote="atalex"
Why do they even have to be zombies? What if killing Wanda simply leaves them with free will? They don't have upkeep, and if they don't have any innate Loyalty or Duty, then they are the only real free agents in Erfworld. Barbarians and, I assume, independent casters still disband if they can't afford to pay upkeep, but Decrypted don't have that limitation.[/quote]

Well, zombies would fit the whole Croackamancer theme there.
Hmm.. if most of the Dwagons with Wanda are in fact alive, why was she preparing for Dance fighting?
Dunham
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:14 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:01 pm

Dunham wrote:Hmm.. if most of the Dwagons with Wanda are in fact alive, why was she preparing for Dance fighting?

Because the regular units (Archons, etc.) could still get the bonus, even if the Dwagons couldn't.
Stanley rocked out on a dwagon, after all.
User avatar
MarbitChow
 
Posts: 2510
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Aquillion » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:03 pm

build6 wrote:heh... what I really got from this page is that Duncan really likes working for his Queen. Good for 'em :-)
Uh.

Remember, he was Turned. He likes working for her because he's been mindraped to like working for her.
Aquillion
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 4:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dunham » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:04 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Dunham wrote:Hmm.. if most of the Dwagons with Wanda are in fact alive, why was she preparing for Dance fighting?

Because the regular units (Archons, etc.) could still get the bonus, even if the Dwagons couldn't.
Stanley rocked out on a dwagon, after all.


True, but I was referencing the rule Parson mentioned in the first book, where a master class Croakamancer could lead Uncroaked in dance fighting. which I'm assuming she's not capable of normally. I have no doubt that if the Dwagons were decrypted it would give them the bonus, but since the Dwagons are the main force there, it seemed negligible, though I do suppose every little bit helps?
Dunham
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:14 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby jabbersocky » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:42 pm

Dunham wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Dunham wrote:Hmm.. if most of the Dwagons with Wanda are in fact alive, why was she preparing for Dance fighting?

Because the regular units (Archons, etc.) could still get the bonus, even if the Dwagons couldn't.
Stanley rocked out on a dwagon, after all.


True, but I was referencing the rule Parson mentioned in the first book, where a master class Croakamancer could lead Uncroaked in dance fighting. which I'm assuming she's not capable of normally. I have no doubt that if the Dwagons were decrypted it would give them the bonus, but since the Dwagons are the main force there, it seemed negligible, though I do suppose every little bit helps?


The Dwagons are the main force but there are a large number of Archons as well. And as we saw when vinny was talking about the Stanley ambush Archon's seem to be devastating when the dance fight bonus is added.
My life for Jetstone!
Her vorpal blade went snicker-snack! as she croaked every dwagon in the stack.
jabbersocky
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:56 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby regisminae » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:52 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:There's also one more loose thread, barely visible with the corner of the eye- what's Sizemore (and/or Janis) up to?


My suspicion: Sizemore will be found in either Progrock or Brookstone, waiting after having helped with the razing and reconstruction of one or the other.
regisminae
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:07 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Anias » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:12 am

For the few people who've been wondering at the logic behind the Wanda - Decrypted dusting linkage, a quick summary:

No, we don't know if they'll dust if she dies: the two leading theories are that they'll either become free - like barbarians (who are similar in that they are troops whose leader/side was wiped out) or that they'll dust (like uncroaked are believed to do when the croakamancer dies).

No, we don't know if she can insta-dust any Decrypted at will, at any distance, though this is a logical assumption. They're her units, after all. Stanley can disband any of his troops at will, effectively removing them from Erf (as he's threatened to do to Parson on a few occasions), so it wouldn't be surprising if Wanda could do the same. Especially since it seems that the Decrypted are far more her units (in terms of loyalty, etc) than Stanley's troops are his units.

Really, what most of it comes down to is the nature of Decryption. Are the units tied to the attuned or the pliers themselves (so if someone else got the pliers or she didn't have them with her, would the Decrypted cease to be/cease to be hers)? Are the Decrypted truly "re-popped" or another type of uncroaked, or something in between? Do Wanda's troops count as part of her side, even though Stanley's her overlord (making her more of a natural side/natural ally with separate troops - like chief Vurp and his hobgobwin tribe)?

Normally, I'd throw in a bunch of my random speculation on each of these, but it's late and I'm tired...
Anias
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:12 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:57 am

I'm thinking of the following possibilities in the event of a croaked Wanda...
* Barbarian units with free will, forever
* Barbarian units with free will, until a new Arkenplier wielder arrives
* Rampaging zombies
* Dusted/disbanded
* Remain under Stanley's control/leadership
User avatar
Sonic Screwdriver
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:28 am

I just thought - Jillian's actions her likely won't won't make Slately think more of her. I hope we get to see a bit of the king raging about that unreliable barbarian Queen. :D

MarbitChow wrote:Re: Charlie's motives - I don't think Charlie said he wanted a chance to turn Ansom explicitly.
I think Charlie wanted Ansom dead, to eliminate the bonus and remove him as a distraction for Jillian.
I hypothesize that Charlie also speculated, in conversations w/ Jillian, that he'd like a chance to try to turn a (random) decrypted unit, to see if it's possible.
Jillian grabs Ansom and uses the "let's see if we can turn him" excuse to get exactly what she wants.


That actually sounds quite likely.

And perhaps Jillian's "But I don't..." would have ended with "think that'll be necessary". Maybe Jillian is all about the power of love and thinks having Ansom amongst friends (her and Vinnie) with Vanna doing her thing that will be enough.

atalex wrote:Here's an idea: an Erfworlder decrypted by the pliers has no cost. If the dish can be used to break Wanda's control, then the result is a living, independent being with no upkeep cost. In other words, a free person who is not dependent on the whims of a ruler for his or her existence. If Parson is prophesied to "break Erfworld" and bring about lasting peace, one way to do that would be to make Erfworlders fully independent beings not subject to disbanding the first time they refuse to fight in their rulers' wars.


Indeed. While it is all speculation I like the idea that a decrypted can be turned (if with much greater difficulty) or break free (or be broken free), rather then them be eternally loyal to Wanda. At least non-decrypted can turn it seems, if they want to, or with a little help.

Lamech wrote:So... lets see, the royals can know Jillian has: not attacked Wanda, somehow got Hagar to throw away units, then took the most valuable unit from the now weakened stack, and left. Sure they might assume that Hagar was a traitor, but I think Hagar has really good grounds to push the issue. The alliance can't really say, "We assume you were traitors, so we're okay with backstabbing you" and still expect Hagar's help.


Well Trem knows Jillian and Charlie have something worked out, though he might have been thinking Jillian had just hired him, not that it was more of a partnership (although Jillian and Sammy words might have changed his mind). He also knows Charlie was somehow involved in Haggar fighting as they did.

I'm not sure Haggar can really push back to much. Jetstone might only have (correct) suspicions about Haggar, but Charlie was spying on their column, how likely would it be for him to have recording of them discussing betraying the RCCII? Let alone the threat that got them to fight as they did. Still, I could imagine the Haggarites deciding to quit the field as well. Although they were rather good at shooting down Archons...

SteveMB wrote:It occurs to me that Charlie may have wanted his involvement to leak without being directly acknowleged -- the RCC2s suspcions (which he's trying to allay) make it impossible for them to sign him up as an open ally, but getting his foot in the door and letting word get out that he has done so serves his purposes nicely. Thus, the wink-wink-nudge-nudge loopholes in his non-disclosure contracts may be deliberate.


It would make sense.

Sonic Screwdriver wrote:I'm thinking of the following possibilities in the event of a croaked Wanda...
* Barbarian units with free will, forever
* Barbarian units with free will, until a new Arkenplier wielder arrives


That's the two I imagine seem the most likely. The decrypted seem far to alive to go zombie/auto-dust if Wanda croaks, and other casters seem to think the is life involved as well.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
User avatar
Dancing Cthulhu
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby robak » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:15 am

I don't think Wanda can die. It's fate. The Arkentools have to be united. Who knows if there can be other attuned than those designated by the Titans? Therefore I don't think we will find out what happens, should Wanda croak.
robak
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:31 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:32 am

robak wrote:I don't think Wanda can die. It's fate. The Arkentools have to be united. Who knows if there can be other attuned than those designated by the Titans? Therefore I don't think we will find out what happens, should Wanda croak.

Circular logic in "Who knows if there can be other attuned than those designated by the Titans?" Possible as well that many could attune or that any non royal could attune.

She seems a main character, so less likely to die, but we could always have a twist in plot where Wanda is croaked and someone else grabs pliers and decrypts her.

"The Arkentools have to be united." - from unknown source with perhaps hidden agenda, and nothing said so far shows the tools coming together requires separate attuned players. For all we know coming together could mean Parson gets them all and attunes to them in end, the first 2 after Wanda and Stanley croak.
multilis
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby effataigus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:09 pm

Ditto wrote:
3) Charlie has units in GW's battlespace (they had archons act this day in one of the text updates while within range of attacking GW) WITHOUT GW being aware that they were there (We have not seen GW act like they are aware someone has a turn before them).

Silverhorn, I'm not sure I understand your meaning. GW = Gobwin Knob? Where does Charlie have a unit in the same hex as Gobwin Knob? Being 'within range of attacking' probably means 'has the move to reach and engage target', not 'sitting in their hex'. Wherever you're getting that from, that is. The Archons we've seen were stalking Haggar's column.


I think I understand the logic...http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/144.jpg suggests to me that "battlespace" is defined along the lines of "near enough to attack." Charlie wouldn't have blackmailed Hagar's forces into attacking until after the post-Kingworld conversation he had with Jillian. If Sammy was within range of attacking by that point then Charlie's archons (near Sammy) should have been as well. This means that Charlie should have gotten a turn before Gobwin Knob and after dawn and therefore Gobwin Knob should know that Charlie (or another unaligned early-natural-turn side) is around. Now there are a lot of suppositions that go into this and so many ways that this logic could fail that I'm not going to even try to list them, but I'd buy it more often than not.

Silverhorn wrote:I personally think Charlie's plan all along was to have Jetsone wear itself out trying to destroy Wanda, then ride like the hero as the only one that can stop Wanda before she can escape. Then use a little foolamancy to make it look like he killed Wanda, when actually he captured her and road off with her. Then once she is under his thumb he was going to have her croak archon's, have a turnamancer turn them back to him, and then have bottomless source of costless archons.


I've been hoping that Charlie would find a way to get Wanda on his side for awhile... mostly so that there would be a Parson-sized challenge out there... I couldn't think of any extremely compelling reason that Charlie risk alerting Parson instead of just watching for now though. From what we know of his motivations, upkeep-free archons would be enough though. Sweet idea. I still don't really buy it though. Charlie seemed (I'm reading into this) exceptionally pissed that Sammy Hagar savaged his Archons... I'm guessing he might have some issues with killing them just so he wouldn't have to pay for them.

Awesome art, yet again! Panel 10 was fantastic as has been said, and I thoroughly enjoyed Jillian's mounting and dismounting of the Megalogwiff. Not that I condone either Jillian or Megalogwiffs... grrr.
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
User avatar
effataigus
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:49 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Decorus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:22 pm

Charlie probably told her that he thinks he could turn Ansom.
Charlie himself just sold her that line to try and get her to join up.
Since she had Vanna blow her remaining juice trying to turn Ansom and failed its likely that Jillian doesn't believe Ansom can be turned anymore at least not as long as Wanda is still living.
Decorus
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:12 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:24 pm

Aquillion wrote:
build6 wrote:heh... what I really got from this page is that Duncan really likes working for his Queen. Good for 'em :-)
Uh.

Remember, he was Turned. He likes working for her because he's been mindraped to like working for her.


I think this is a good reminder, and bears repeating.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby kriss » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:27 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
build6 wrote:heh... what I really got from this page is that Duncan really likes working for his Queen. Good for 'em :-)
Uh.

Remember, he was Turned. He likes working for her because he's been mindraped to like working for her.


I think this is a good reminder, and bears repeating.


Which means that Ansom possibly could be mindraped to turn...but would he survive turning?
I think therefore I am. This leaves you in a bad spot.

Army inteligence is sadly an oximoron these days. And no General, I did not just call you a cow.

I cut myself shaving with Occam's razor.
User avatar
kriss
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:58 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby djones520 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:31 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
build6 wrote:heh... what I really got from this page is that Duncan really likes working for his Queen. Good for 'em :-)
Uh.

Remember, he was Turned. He likes working for her because he's been mindraped to like working for her.


I think this is a good reminder, and bears repeating.


If you think of it in our terms then yes. But you and I don't have "leadership stats". You can't just appeal to the "greater humanity" with most erf worlders. There's really no such thing.
djones520
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:50 pm

djones520 wrote:If you think of it in our terms then yes. But you and I don't have "leadership stats". You can't just appeal to the "greater humanity" with most erf worlders. There's really no such thing.


Yes, the moral dilemma you implicate (what place does free will have in a strictly heirarchical world of constant warfare) is one of the things that makes this webcomic so great.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Ditto » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:09 pm

I think I understand the logic...http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/144.jpg suggests to me that "battlespace" is defined along the lines of "near enough to attack." Charlie wouldn't have blackmailed Hagar's forces into attacking until after the post-Kingworld conversation he had with Jillian. If Sammy was within range of attacking by that point then Charlie's archons (near Sammy) should have been as well. This means that Charlie should have gotten a turn before Gobwin Knob and after dawn and therefore Gobwin Knob should know that Charlie (or another unaligned early-natural-turn side) is around. Now there are a lot of suppositions that go into this and so many ways that this logic could fail that I'm not going to even try to list them, but I'd buy it more often than not.

Haggar was definitely NOT in the same battlespace as GK during that text update... they arrived at the hex with Jillian and Tramennis on-panel in the next issue of the comic. Battlespace means hex, since you can only attack someone in your hex. The term battlespace itself may mean something a little fuzzier when you're talking about a city, since the discrete number of hexes/zones therein depends on whether you are a friendly or not. In any event, I still don't understand why anyone thinks Archons were in a hex with GK folks.

Uh.

Remember, he was Turned. He likes working for her because he's been mindraped to like working for her.

That's not entirely true. Turnamancers affect a units loyalty. They jack it up artificially, but it's still a stat that was there to begin with. It's much more accurate to say Ansom was mindraped, since he was rebuilt from the ground up. Duncan was re-educated, or maybe brainwashed, but not hollowed out and started anew.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not
Ditto
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:32 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dystopianman and 9 guests