Book 2 – Page 30

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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:17 pm

Ditto wrote:That's not entirely true. Turnamancers affect a units loyalty. They jack it up artificially, but it's still a stat that was there to begin with. It's much more accurate to say Ansom was mindraped, since he was rebuilt from the ground up. Duncan was re-educated, or maybe brainwashed, but not hollowed out and started anew.


It's not just a question of jacking up the Loyalty stat, it's diametrically changing WHO the Loyalty stat "reports to." Duncan went from enemy to loyal supporter. So I personally think "mindrape" is pretty accurate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby effataigus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:08 pm

Ditto wrote:Battlespace means hex, since you can only attack someone in your hex.

I'd be willing to believe your interpretation of battlespace given a source, but I'm not yet sold. You can certainly attack someone outside of your hex if it is your turn and you have remaining move. I'm thinking battlespace might refer to the greatest range at which a unit exists that could conceivably reach and attack you on your turn (EDIT this should read on *their* turn). This would mean that GK and FAQ (acronym for Faq-forces And Queen-Jillian) would be all up in everyone's battlespace because of their long-range flyers.

Take Ansom's recent perspective. By your definition the RCCII was not in his battlespace and therefore they wouldn't get a turn... clearly they did as he is being nom'd by a megalogwiff at the moment.

Now, I'd definitely accept that "battlespace" means "hex" if we're dealing with another Erfworld relativistic effect... something along the lines of "if Charlie had an Archon sit in the hex next to Ansom but never enter, then Ansom would get his turn at dawn... if Charlie's Archon ever entered the hex with Ansom then Ansom's turn would be later in the day than dawn." Only, why would Parson say "battlespace" instead of just "hex" then? Perhaps a city-zone thing as you mention?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Silverhorn » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:31 pm

Ditto wrote:
3) Charlie has units in GW's battlespace (they had archons act this day in one of the text updates while within range of attacking GW) WITHOUT GW being aware that they were there (We have not seen GW act like they are aware someone has a turn before them).

Silverhorn, I'm not sure I understand your meaning. GW = Gobwin Knob? Where does Charlie have a unit in the same hex as Gobwin Knob? Being 'within range of attacking' probably means 'has the move to reach and engage target', not 'sitting in their hex'. Wherever you're getting that from, that is. The Archons we've seen were stalking Haggar's column.


To me the most likely definition of battlespace is the area in which a side has an oppurtunity to interact with another unallied side. This would be based off the invididual unit movement. It does not matter if they actually meet, just that have the potential.

So if this definition is correct then it is logical to conclude that Charliescom is the same battlespace as GK. Archons are very high move units (from Book 1 and Summer updates they could outpace every other unit that was covered). So it logical to assume that the Archons that could catch up with Haggar (very slow moving infantry, only surpased by siege) could pass him by. So if Haggar was in the same battlespace as GK, then it was very likely so was Charlescomm. The only way that Charlescomm could not have been in the same battlespace is if they had been pruposely staying just out range for triggering such an event. But pulling off such a thing would have required a great deal of luck and insight to where GK's units were, because one unexpected unit movement by GK and Charlescomm enters GK's battlespace, then Parson pulls out the bracer and determines if Charlie is the reason why his side did not go first. Parson then advices everyone to act accordingly.

To me the more reasonable explaination is the Charlie knows of a way to make his turn appear shorter to other sides. After all time IS relative in every hex. If I can find a caster that can super speed up time in certain hex, I could get all my actions done before the other side is aware it happened. One second would pass in my enemies turn and he would assume that no one else was in his battle space.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Anias » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:48 pm

Silverhorn wrote:
Ditto wrote:
3) Charlie has units in GW's battlespace (they had archons act this day in one of the text updates while within range of attacking GW) WITHOUT GW being aware that they were there (We have not seen GW act like they are aware someone has a turn before them).

Silverhorn, I'm not sure I understand your meaning. GW = Gobwin Knob? Where does Charlie have a unit in the same hex as Gobwin Knob? Being 'within range of attacking' probably means 'has the move to reach and engage target', not 'sitting in their hex'. Wherever you're getting that from, that is. The Archons we've seen were stalking Haggar's column.


To me the most likely definition of battlespace is the area in which a side has an oppurtunity to with another unallied side. This would be based off the invididual unit movement. It does not matter if they actually meet, just that have the potential.

So if this definition is correct then it is logical to conclude that Charliescom is the same battlespace as GK...


Doesn't seem that likely; if 'battlespace' is just the area in which units CAN interact with units of another side then:
A)Every side would constantly be in 'battlespace' with all its neighbors. Battlespace implies the presence of a battle, just as 'battlefield' (so it fits for unallied units with a hex, but not so well for unallied units within a turn's move of each other)
B)Every side would constantly be in 'battlespace' with EVERYONE. Remember that this is a world where things (at least items) can be instantly teleported, relays can be used, and portals can be accessed. We don't know if teleportation works for units - so I'll set that one aside. But since GK can dwagon-relay its troops around, that would suggest that Ansom, while back in GK, was in various sides' battlespace (since he could and did dwagon-relay himself back to the front). So 'battlespace' for GK would be as far as the highest-move land unit could travel after riding a chain of all their flying units. It'd probably add up to a not-inconsiderable portion of the world. And with portals to and from the MK (and maybe to other places as well, since we don't know where all the portals in Portal Park lead) a unit (well, at least a caster) from GK could be pretty much anywhere in the world in a turn.

I'll say it again, 'battlespace' seems to imply a past, present, or (expected) future battle site, in the same general sense as 'battlefield' or 'battleground' does. Not every side is at war, constantly, with every side it isn't allied to, but can reach.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:40 pm

therealkami wrote:Is Ansom being shifted around inside of the Megalogwiff?



Yes, Rob confirmed on chat. Also notice that he entered the megalowiff from the bottom.

I think the army and the Megalowiff crossed the road while the commanders were looking at maps. I thought Rob had flipped the picture so that the text bubbles fit better. I was very wrong.

I gave up trying to estimate time lapse using shadows.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Silverhorn » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:49 pm

Time is relative in hexes. Always remember that. Here is an example of how turns would work with overlapping battlespaces.

Suposed that there is 3 sides. Side A, B, and C.

A can reach B, but not C.
B can reach A & C.
C can reach B, but not C.

While I do not know the factor that would determine turn order, lets say that A goes before B who goes before C.

As the start of the day A would go first and B would be aware of this. However whether A or B goes first does not matter to C, all they know is that they are not going first. Additionally, the wonky time flow of Erfworld would assure them that they have enough time to implement their actions in the afternoon like normal. So it does not matter if there is one or a thousands sides before me, all I know is they go before me.

Now lets shake up this logic and assume that A & C go before B. Since C can not interact with A, by my definition of battlespace, both of them in a sense would have turns going on at the same side and both start at dawn. But since they do not share a battlespace it does not matter that they have simultaneous turn. And to B it does not matter who is going first. He still gets his turn in the "afternoon" and since his fights with A can not effect those with C and vice versa (he placed his troops on yesterday's turn and that matter is settled) it does not impact him they seem to be going simultaneously to him. And because of the wonkiness of erfworld time, a ruler could probably armchair general both of them via thinkograms. :-)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:00 pm

Raza wrote:
I assume he mentioned that he'd like to try turning a decrypted; not necessarily Ansom. Considering she took a turnamancer to battle an army of them this might've reasonably come up.


We also can not be sure if decrypted are loyal to the pliers only, Wanda only, Wanda with pliers only, or the arkentools in general. It is conceivable that a decrypted unit could be turned from the pliers to the dish but still be decrypted. Since Wanda is in the chain of command under Stanley all possibilities would result in the same loyalty.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:56 pm

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
Raza wrote:
I assume he mentioned that he'd like to try turning a decrypted; not necessarily Ansom. Considering she took a turnamancer to battle an army of them this might've reasonably come up.


We also can not be sure if decrypted are loyal to the pliers only, Wanda only, Wanda with pliers only, or the arkentools in general. It is conceivable that a decrypted unit could be turned from the pliers to the dish but still be decrypted. Since Wanda is in the chain of command under Stanley all possibilities would result in the same loyalty.

Charlie *did* show Ansom in first thinkomancy to Jill, Jill may have almost said she doesn't trust Charlie, it is possible that turning Ansom has been Charlie's implied carrot.

Wanda when explaining to Ansom reason for leaving him behind left impression she thought his loyalty level was going down from when decrypted.

***

Parson's first Stupid Meal says there are 4 known Arkentools. 4 characters: Parson, Wanda, Jack and Jill have nearly normal eyes, 3 from Faq. On earth, Parson's gaming group had 4 members, normally Parson as GM would be out of game so 3 PCs but then Parson said he really wished he could be in such a game.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:15 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Ditto wrote:That's not entirely true. Turnamancers affect a units loyalty. They jack it up artificially, but it's still a stat that was there to begin with. It's much more accurate to say Ansom was mindraped, since he was rebuilt from the ground up. Duncan was re-educated, or maybe brainwashed, but not hollowed out and started anew.


It's not just a question of jacking up the Loyalty stat, it's diametrically changing WHO the Loyalty stat "reports to." Duncan went from enemy to loyal supporter. So I personally think "mindrape" is pretty accurate.


Although I also think it depends on the unit in question. We learnt back in book one that a unit turned can be expected to have lower then average loyalty (perhaps if a caster isn't involved), yet Jack has rejected the offer to turn twice from Jillian.

Duncan, when Oss was trying to psych him out with the whole "royalty is going down" bit got rebuffed since Duncan apparently doesn't care about such things. It is possible part of Duncan's make up as an individual is that he actually likes working for Jillian and she has impressed him (and considering how he was captured, if he thought it was all her doing that would be impressive)+ plus whatever turnamancy did. And since we have no idea how loyal he was to his former side or his relationship to its ruler/chief warlord...

Plus loyalty isn't a permanent/locked in thing (for an invisible stat). It can be affected, go down (and presumably up as well) depending on any number of things. I doubt getting turned by a turnamancer gives a unit a permanent/everlasting high loyalty towards the side they were turned to. At some point it has to come down to the characters in question and what they think of one another (as with Caesar and Don).

multilis wrote:I don't think Wanda can die. It's fate. The Arkentools have to be united. Who knows if there can be other attuned than those designated by the Titans? Therefore I don't think we will find out what happens, should Wanda croak.


Well... that is what Wanda believes. She believes Fate wants her to unite the Arkentools and nothing will happen to her because that is what Fate wants. Which works fine until something does happen to her.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:19 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
multilis wrote:I don't think Wanda can die. It's fate. The Arkentools have to be united. Who knows if there can be other attuned than those designated by the Titans? Therefore I don't think we will find out what happens, should Wanda croak.


I did not write those words but quoted them. Agree with you that Wanda could die. Many classic stories such as Macbeth involve a villain misinterpreting a prophesy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby kriss » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:45 pm

multilis wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
multilis wrote:I don't think Wanda can die. It's fate. The Arkentools have to be united. Who knows if there can be other attuned than those designated by the Titans? Therefore I don't think we will find out what happens, should Wanda croak.


I did not write those words but quoted them. Agree with you that Wanda could die. Many classic stories such as Macbeth involve a villain misinterpreting a prophesy.


Ywah, with the woods marching, a guy delivered by c-section, and everything going to Hell, he really got screwed over by the prophecy. Then again, he probably wouldn't have done any of the things he did if there wasn't a proophecy to motivate him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dunham » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:59 pm

kriss wrote:Ywah, with the woods marching, a guy delivered by c-section, and everything going to Hell, he really got screwed over by the prophecy. Then again, he probably wouldn't have done any of the things he did if there wasn't a proophecy to motivate him.


And, of course, what is the sole motivator of our little necro? I wonder if Parson will mention it to her, or tell her the story at all. Course, as far as we know her prophecy doesn't foretell her death, so she being a main character may last her for at least a while.

I for one, to slightly deviate the topic, hope that the wielder of the fourth arkentool isn't Sizemore, or on GK's side at all for that matter. Seems like they've got enough toys, giving it to Sizemore or Parson would just seem a bit much, like doting on the favorite characters.
Sure as hell hope it ain't Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Pointyleaf » Sat May 01, 2010 12:19 am

Dunham wrote:I for one, to slightly deviate the topic, hope that the wielder of the fourth arkentool isn't Sizemore, or on GK's side at all for that matter. Seems like they've got enough toys, giving it to Sizemore or Parson would just seem a bit much, like doting on the favorite characters.
Sure as hell hope it ain't Jillian.


Weeeeelll..
Wanda Tools makes pliers - http://www.wanda-tools.com/
Stanley Tools makes hammers (amongst other things) - http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp ... IL+HAMMERS
Charlescomm is a communications and public relations company - http://www.charlescomm.com/

"Ansom" is a company that makes sporting cutlery, while "Sizemore" was the name of an early patent holder for shovels. Who knows? It'd be interesting indeed if Ansom attuned to a tool..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby kriss » Sat May 01, 2010 1:02 am

Pointyleaf wrote:
Dunham wrote:I for one, to slightly deviate the topic, hope that the wielder of the fourth arkentool isn't Sizemore, or on GK's side at all for that matter. Seems like they've got enough toys, giving it to Sizemore or Parson would just seem a bit much, like doting on the favorite characters.
Sure as hell hope it ain't Jillian.


Weeeeelll..
Wanda Tools makes pliers - http://www.wanda-tools.com/
Stanley Tools makes hammers (amongst other things) - http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp ... IL+HAMMERS
Charlescomm is a communications and public relations company - http://www.charlescomm.com/

"Ansom" is a company that makes sporting cutlery, while "Sizemore" was the name of an early patent holder for shovels. Who knows? It'd be interesting indeed if Ansom attuned to a tool..


Well Ansom DOES know which fork to use for salads...and eyeballs.
I think therefore I am. This leaves you in a bad spot.

Army inteligence is sadly an oximoron these days. And no General, I did not just call you a cow.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby jabbersocky » Sat May 01, 2010 1:06 am

kriss wrote:
Pointyleaf wrote:
Dunham wrote:I for one, to slightly deviate the topic, hope that the wielder of the fourth arkentool isn't Sizemore, or on GK's side at all for that matter. Seems like they've got enough toys, giving it to Sizemore or Parson would just seem a bit much, like doting on the favorite characters.
Sure as hell hope it ain't Jillian.


Weeeeelll..
Wanda Tools makes pliers - http://www.wanda-tools.com/
Stanley Tools makes hammers (amongst other things) - http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp ... IL+HAMMERS
Charlescomm is a communications and public relations company - http://www.charlescomm.com/

"Ansom" is a company that makes sporting cutlery, while "Sizemore" was the name of an early patent holder for shovels. Who knows? It'd be interesting indeed if Ansom attuned to a tool..


Well Ansom DOES know which fork to use for salads...and eyeballs.


My money's on Jillian's heir seen as he/she is guaranteed to be a important character.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Menlo Marseilles » Sat May 01, 2010 1:29 am

Pointyleaf wrote:
Dunham wrote:I for one, to slightly deviate the topic, hope that the wielder of the fourth arkentool isn't Sizemore, or on GK's side at all for that matter. Seems like they've got enough toys, giving it to Sizemore or Parson would just seem a bit much, like doting on the favorite characters.
Sure as hell hope it ain't Jillian.


Weeeeelll..
Wanda Tools makes pliers - http://www.wanda-tools.com/
Stanley Tools makes hammers (amongst other things) - http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp ... IL+HAMMERS
Charlescomm is a communications and public relations company - http://www.charlescomm.com/

"Ansom" is a company that makes sporting cutlery, while "Sizemore" was the name of an early patent holder for shovels. Who knows? It'd be interesting indeed if Ansom attuned to a tool..

Shovel patents nuthin'... Sizemore is right up there in solvent modern corporation territory. ;)

(It would be interesting to see someone new or rarely-used get the fourth unaccounted-for Arkentool, though.)
and in despair i bowed my head
"there is no peace on erf," i said
for fate is strong and mocks the song
of peace on erf, good will to men
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby mindsword » Sat May 01, 2010 1:53 am

well, thats interesting. not sure if this has been discussed yet, but why would Charile (who I assume is the one whose taken an interest in the turning) want to see if Ansom could be turned? I only can come up with a few answers.

1) If they can be turned, then its a demension of the game he can implement. It might also suggest his archons can be turned.

2) If they can be turned, he can get his archons back. no upkeep means a lot of money for him. especially if he can get Wanda on his side. pop an archon, kill it, decrypt it, turn it. free archons.

3) Its not Charile.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby atalex » Sat May 01, 2010 2:55 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Ditto wrote:That's not entirely true. Turnamancers affect a units loyalty. They jack it up artificially, but it's still a stat that was there to begin with. It's much more accurate to say Ansom was mindraped, since he was rebuilt from the ground up. Duncan was re-educated, or maybe brainwashed, but not hollowed out and started anew.


It's not just a question of jacking up the Loyalty stat, it's diametrically changing WHO the Loyalty stat "reports to." Duncan went from enemy to loyal supporter. So I personally think "mindrape" is pretty accurate.


To the extent that Loyalty and Duty are supernatural influences plaguing every non-Royal in Erfworld from the moment of birth, I think everyone is born "pre-mind-raped" and turnamancy just changes the rapist to whom the victim feels an unnatural Stockholm Syndrome. I have theorized that even the Royals are subject to an unnatural Loyalty and/or Duty to the Titanic Mandate, since Stanley's threat to it has triggered wholly irrational responses in Slately, Ansom, Bea and Vito, the latter of whom has reconfigured his entire theory of rulership in response to TBoGK. I still think that the "breaking the world that leads to peace" that Janice keeps talking about is the breaking of the Duty/Loyalty compulsion and the introduction of free will into Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby HandofShadows » Sat May 01, 2010 8:54 am

multilis wrote:I did not write those words but quoted them. Agree with you that Wanda could die. Many classic stories such as Macbeth involve a villain misinterpreting a prophesy.


Wanda might well die if she just "followed prophesy" and expected it to take care of her. Wanda clearly does not do that. She is actively trying to stay alive and follow her fate. Not simply going "I am the Prophesized One!" She also clearly knows that prophesy and fate can be very cloudy and confusing (the last text update showed it clearly).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 30

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat May 01, 2010 9:47 am

multilis wrote:I did not write those words but quoted them. Agree with you that Wanda could die. Many classic stories such as Macbeth involve a villain misinterpreting a prophesy.


I know, and I agree as well. And never trust those prophesies. Personally I like Charlie take on toolism, though I guess Wanda escaping this situation (as I think she will) will reinforce her certainty (just not in Jillian).

Still, as long as no tool dies I guess it is quite possibly they have fate protection immortality, and when/if one dies...

HandofShadows wrote:Wanda might well die if she just "followed prophesy" and expected it to take care of her. Wanda clearly does not do that. She is actively trying to stay alive and follow her fate. Not simply going "I am the Prophesized One!" She also clearly knows that prophesy and fate can be very cloudy and confusing (the last text update showed it clearly).


Although still not quite to the level Ansom is at. Sure, think fate has your back, but plan, plan, plan like it doesn't.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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