Book 2 – Text Updates 022

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Frogpop » Sun May 02, 2010 9:04 am

Flyer wrote:as for Ford's uniform and shield - he is the only American President to have served as a park ranger in the National Park Service and his shield looks like their logo - I don't know if thats been mentioned previously...

http://www.nps.gov/pub_aff/refdesk/GRFord.jpg and http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/workman1b/images/image109l.jpg

Even more so in the wooden sign version. Good catch! So the shield is based on an emblem that is based on an arrowhead.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby The Black Hand » Sun May 02, 2010 9:57 am

You know, I see a lot of naysaying going on here, people saying that Ford's plan is ill-designed.

But consider this . . . what if Jetstone does go after the GK column on the other side of Expository Bridge?

I can think of a very good reason to do that, and it can be summed up in two words:

PINCER MOVEMENT.

Consider: Jetstone's capital has likely been reinforced. Thus, the only sound tactical move for Wanda right now would be to fall back.

Jetstone likely knows this.

What better way to stop an enemy's retreat than by catching them in a pincer movement, thus restricting their options when it comes time to retreat?

In all the turn-based wargames I've ever played, if you have a unit (or stack thereof) that has two enemy units (or stacks) on opposite sides of it, it's considered flanked - and flanked units/stacks can only move one space a turn, and take double damage from enemy attacks while flanked.

Erfworld, being a world that works by the rules of turn-based wargaming, likely has similar rules regarding flanked units.

So, Ford's plan is actually a fairly sound one - lure the enemy forces across the bridge, then weaken them by taking out as many anti-air units as possible (and, hey, if they manage to croak some regular infantry as well, so much the better).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Lamech » Sun May 02, 2010 11:42 am

Destroying the column and then returning to Spacerock is the safer course of action that puts RCC2 in the advantage and GK on the retreat.
They'll be in a worse position compared to when this war started. They'll still be doomed.

It's actually not a great plan. So, yes they want to target units with anti-air capability, but their plan of action has two major flaws.
First, it gives up the bridgehead to the attacking force.
Jetstone probably won't move in the archers and casters till they have the bridge head.
Second, they are dividing an already inferior force to keep a tactical reserve for a counterstrike.
Flanking is considered an advantage almost... always. And the reserve forces are of course nessecary so useless unled infantry don't get themselves killed doing nothing useful.

The foot-soldiers will surge over the bridge basically unopposed; there would be no need to send higher level units against such a badly organized defense. They can push back the GK pikers and establish a secure perimeter before any archers cross over. the GK frontline would most likely be overwhelmed by the first rush and then the reserve will be picked off while their still trying to locate their targets, especially since there would be no flyers or casters in the attack and the RCC troops won't be being so picky.

[ GK piker:" Oh, I don't want to fight you, I'm after archery." RCC stabber: "Too bad mate, I'm after you."]
When the warlord is giving out priority I'm assuming that he isn't a complete moron and his archers will take free shots if they get them and his melee units will fight back if they get engaged. Priority only means who do you go after and attempt to engage when you can choose. But maybe your right and they'll sit there waiting to be croaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby shadowdemon_lord » Sun May 02, 2010 1:47 pm

I see Trem attacking the remaining forces. He already suggested the idea to Wanda, and there seems little reason for him to not attack. I expect Trem to fall into the whole overconfidence thing that seems to be Jetstones curse, and assume that with his forces back at the capital they will have the firepower to take out the GK forces. After all, on paper they definitely do. I don't think anyone on Jetstones side is going to stop and go "hey wait a minute, we need to kill all those Dwagons twice". Trem seems like the most likely one to do this, and he clearly hasn't yet. This makes destroying the GK forces a no brainer, an easy mop up job that also has advantages for a continued campaign against GK after they take out Wanda and the Dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby MarbitChow » Sun May 02, 2010 3:58 pm

The Black Hand wrote:Erfworld, being a world that works by the rules of turn-based wargaming, likely has similar rules regarding flanked units.

I'd be willing to bet that you cannot flank someone in Erfworld by being in another hex.
Each hex is distinct - time passes differently from hex to hex, but remains consistent within a hex, for example.
Units cannot cross hex boundaries when it is not their turn, as well.

Tactically, it makes the most sense to move all forces into Jetstone's capital immediately, and attempt to croak Wanda with overwhelming force.
It doesn't make any sense to me to spend units attempting to destroy forces that she might fall back to if she survives, when those forces could be used to make sure she doesn't survive in the first place.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby The Black Hand » Sun May 02, 2010 4:33 pm

MarbitChow wrote:I'd be willing to bet that you cannot flank someone in Erfworld by being in another hex.


Not simply by being in another hex, but by having two allied stacks on opposite sides of a hex containing an enemy stack.

Like so:

Code: Select all
    O O 
   A E A
    O O

    A O 
   O E O
    O A

    O A 
   O E O
    A O


Where O is an Open hex (one clear of units), A is a hex containing Allied units, and E is a hex containing Enemy units.

In the turn-based wargames I've played, all three of those examples are instances of a flanked unit (or stack thereof). Granted, there are more complex examples - generally involving the central hex having units/stacks in three of the hexes surrounding the central one - but I think that this example gets the point across.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby gazes_also » Sun May 02, 2010 4:56 pm

Lamech wrote:
The foot-soldiers will surge over the bridge basically unopposed; there would be no need to send higher level units against such a badly organized defense. They can push back the GK pikers and establish a secure perimeter before any archers cross over. the GK frontline would most likely be overwhelmed by the first rush and then the reserve will be picked off while their still trying to locate their targets, especially since there would be no flyers or casters in the attack and the RCC troops won't be being so picky.

[ GK piker:" Oh, I don't want to fight you, I'm after archery." RCC stabber: "Too bad mate, I'm after you."]
When the warlord is giving out priority I'm assuming that he isn't a complete moron and his archers will take free shots if they get them and his melee units will fight back if they get engaged. Priority only means who do you go after and attempt to engage when you can choose. But maybe your right and they'll sit there waiting to be croaked.


As Captain Ford said:
The led stacks must try only to engage unit types which can inflict harm upon our flyers in the city! Casters are therefore our primary target, followed by flyers, archery, and then leadership."



The longer they delay, waiting for some worthwhile targets to appear (remember, there will be no flyers) the worse their situation. It's a gallant plan, but doomed to failure.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby kriss » Sun May 02, 2010 4:58 pm

Most board games give an advantage to flanking true, but a unit if it survives can usual escape easily if its move is high enough as long as it's not surounded on all sides. And in Efr you can punch through, so even if surounded they don't have to beat them, just fly faster than they can get croaked. The end result is that a flanking position is less advantagious in Erf than in most turn bassed games AND less advantagious than in real life.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby One Skunk Todd » Sun May 02, 2010 5:01 pm

Heh, Captain 20. :) Can Captain Chesapeake be far behind? :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Kozbot » Sun May 02, 2010 5:11 pm

A lot of posts are saying how stupid Ford's plan is, and they may be accurate from the perspective of "I know you're going to do that and since I know that I can plan accordingly and crush you" however one would assume that as smart as Tram is he doesn't know exactly what Ford's plan is. Especially given that it's an 'unorthodox' plan of attack. When your opponent is doing something you didn't expect, even if it is doomed to failure they can end up inflicting far more casualties then you had expected due to their odd tactics.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby kriss » Sun May 02, 2010 5:25 pm

Kozbot wrote:A lot of posts are saying how stupid Ford's plan is, and they may be accurate from the perspective of "I know you're going to do that and since I know that I can plan accordingly and crush you" however one would assume that as smart as Tram is he doesn't know exactly what Ford's plan is. Especially given that it's an 'unorthodox' plan of attack. When your opponent is doing something you didn't expect, even if it is doomed to failure they can end up inflicting far more casualties then you had expected due to their odd tactics.


"The worst enemy for the grand master is an amature." I forget who said it, but I always felt it was nicely put. The expert knows all the conventions and tricks and tends to think squarly inside the box. An amature not knowing as much is more spontanious and inventive and can come up with some weird new ideas that just might turn the fight upsidedown.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby MarbitChow » Sun May 02, 2010 5:41 pm

The Black Hand wrote:In the turn-based wargames I've played, all three of those examples are instances of a flanked unit (or stack thereof). Granted, there are more complex examples - generally involving the central hex having units/stacks in three of the hexes surrounding the central one - but I think that this example gets the point across.

In most of those games, I'd wager that you are able to attack (and thus threaten) adjacent hexes.
You can't do that in Erfworld - you have to move into the hex to attack.

We've seen no indication of anything other than actual terrain that applies a penalty to movement.
We've seen lots of indications that units without move cannot threaten units in other hexes (Stanley vs. TV in the pass, for example).

The idea of flanking is common to battle simulations, but I'd wager that in Erfworld, flanking only applies to units that are in the same hex.
I'd even wager that it simple acts as a valid tactic (splitting the attention of the enemy and attacking them where they are weak) rather than existing as an actual world mechanic.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby splintermute » Sun May 02, 2010 6:49 pm

The plan isn't necessarily as bad as people make it out to be. "Max stacks" usually consist of 8 units - in this case we have a perfect number for two max stacks, Ford and Captain 20, each leading 7 heavies. Ford specifies "the led stacks" - i.e. Ford, Captain 20, and the heavies - should focus on targets of opportunity. The rest of the GK infantry should be free to stab whoever's in front of them, and I don't think Ford or 20 would let themselves and their heavies be attacked without retaliating.

They'll be standing on either side of the road, with the remaining GK infantry behind them, leaving a narrow corridor along the road. The approaching Jetstone infantry could attack them, but led stacks of heavies will likely be a more difficult target than unled infantry. If they pause to attack Ford and 20's stacks, the led stacks will probably hit them back, and the Jetstone infantry will take some losses. If Jetstone approaches the led stacks and sees that they're not initiating attacks for some reason, and then sees the "breach" in GK ranks along the road, the Jetstone infantry might (if they're particularly gullible) run past Ford and 20 and try to hit the more vulnerable GK units behind them, at which point some archers/casters/etc. may have crossed the bridge and be in range of the led stacks, and the infantry who ran into the breach would find themselves surrounded.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby gazes_also » Sun May 02, 2010 7:42 pm

One thing that comes across in this page that no-one has commented on is that what would be best for Stanley and GK in general doesn't come into their plan.
They are ready to sacrifice themselves completely in the faint hope of helping save Wanda rather than fighting a defensive holding action to preserve as much of their force as possible so they can survive to retreat in good order or be reinforced on the next turn. What their supposed Overlord would have them do doesn't come into it.
Ford didn't contact GK for orders, he just came up with his Kamikaze plan.
Even Stanley has to realize after this that he is Overlord in name only and Wanda is really running the show. One of them is going to have to go.


One of the problems with Ford's plan is that it is too balanced. If he put both led heavy stacks on the same side and all the un-led infantry on the other he would have a better chance. The un-led units would automatically attack any RCC units crossing the bridge, drawing the front to that side, fending off a spontaneous, chaotic attack. This would give the heavies the chance to delay engagement and pick some advantageous targets. It's really unimaginative and dull, rather than 'unorthodox'.
This isn't the case of the amateur surprising the grand-master, this is more like a 200th ranked player going against a top 10 ( pick your own sport). It will be over before the warm-up.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Lamech » Sun May 02, 2010 9:57 pm

The longer they delay, waiting for some worthwhile targets to appear (remember, there will be no flyers) the worse their situation. It's a gallant plan, but doomed to failure.
If no worthwhile targets show up nothing they do matters. Worthwhile units probably won't show until they have a semi-safe place to put them, which meanst they don't appear till the bridge head is lost. So protecting the bridge is throwing away units on being counter-productive.

And yes if Trem simply decides to not send casters, leaders or archers the plan fails, but if they're not sent every plan fails. So Ford therefore should plan for Trem screwing up.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Fiendishrabbit » Sun May 02, 2010 10:43 pm

Reclaimer wrote:
Fiendishrabbit wrote:If you're referring to the girl in frame 4 on page 27.
Haggar could have croaked her.
Or it's a good chance that she got splattered when those megalogwiffs decided that everyone near Ansom should end up between a rock and a hard place (the hard place being said megalogwiffs) on page 29 (Frame 9).


Or she's still alive, and right there in front of Captains Ford and Twenty in the image accompanying the update.

Maybe she's just a high-level stabber. *Shrug.*


Maybe she's knight class infantry? There has been speculation that only knight class infantry can use mounts (or that at least knights is the preferred type given that you probably want to pack as much punch as possible). And all of the megalogwiff riders seem to be caped as well so it would seem to apply to all to all riders of the type of pointy-helmeted infantry that Jillians FAQ and Jetstone uses (it does not seem to apply to Hobgoblin knights or to eastern style human infantry like old FAQ or UnaRoyal).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Sun May 02, 2010 11:54 pm

Maybe Xin has a sense of fashion and color and drew capes when a cape would look good. The pink blob does not have a rank or status and it may or may not have capes.

If king Slately decided that the troops should have capes for the glorious victory and paid the schmuckers then the capes would pop on the infantry.

I am not sure what would happen if Slately's sense of fashion clashed with Xin's.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Gorky » Mon May 03, 2010 7:54 am

Hahaha, Ford saying "may the Titans pardon us." I get it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Lord Kasavin » Mon May 03, 2010 9:17 am

I wouldn't read to much into the meaning of "capes" and gold armor. OK, we more or less know they signify Warlord status for Jetstone, with the exception of the Royal Heirs, but only for this battle as Webinar and his girl did not wear gold armor and capes.

Now GK is really odd in that most of their army was popped in other nations, and largely "repopped" with the same cut of clothing they had before, only now in black with skulls. Maybe Unaroyal let Knight class infantry wear capes, and she kept hers. This doesn't count the newer, living troops popped by Stanley. Point is GK forces are going to be a hodge podge of different uniforms.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby dirocyn » Mon May 03, 2010 9:23 am

Is this Ford the scout a reference to Gerald Ford, the president who pardoned Nixon--or is this Ford who will be made prefect? My money says he's Ford Ranger, late of Unaroyal, and he'll pickup where Ansom left off. Or, as is more likely in Erfworld, all three plus something else I haven't considered yet.

In any case his plan is as good a plan as anyone in his position could have. Without Ansom's leadership bonus this column is going to take very heavy losses if attacked. There is no holding the bridge, nor is there any strategic benefit in doing so. The most important thing this group can do, off turn, is to take out important units. Which means casters, flyers, archers, and leadership. We may quibble about the order of importance, but I think he's got it mostly right.

Attack casters first--they can potentially do the most damage, plus they're probably the easiest units to croak. If you can reach them.
Attack leadership last--the leadership stack is going to be heavily protected and hard hitting. GK's column can't afford to lose it's only two warlords going after leadership. If GK's warlords get dusted, this turns into a complete route. Also, Jetstone has no shortage of warlords, if they lose a few they can just promote more. There's no advantage to hitting leadership, except for the effect on leadership in this hex battle alone. Which is not important for GK's long term strategic needs.
Archers or flyers--I think the preference for attacking flyers over archers assumes flyers are more dangerous to Wanda's group (possibly true) and neglects the possibility that flyers croaked in Wanda's airspace may be decrypted. However, flyers can take multiple hits before croaked (see the crying megalo with all those spears in it) whereas archers will be croaked very quickly. Injured flyers will likely get healed (Jetstone has a healomancer) before being sent into battle with Wanda, so injuring a flyer is of little value. I would rather hit archers than flyers, in this situation.
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