Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Reclaimer » Mon May 03, 2010 12:23 pm

Fiendishrabbit wrote:
Reclaimer wrote:
Fiendishrabbit wrote:If you're referring to the girl in frame 4 on page 27.
Haggar could have croaked her.
Or it's a good chance that she got splattered when those megalogwiffs decided that everyone near Ansom should end up between a rock and a hard place (the hard place being said megalogwiffs) on page 29 (Frame 9).


Or she's still alive, and right there in front of Captains Ford and Twenty in the image accompanying the update.

Maybe she's just a high-level stabber. *Shrug.*


Maybe she's knight class infantry? There has been speculation that only knight class infantry can use mounts (or that at least knights is the preferred type given that you probably want to pack as much punch as possible). And all of the megalogwiff riders seem to be caped as well so it would seem to apply to all to all riders of the type of pointy-helmeted infantry that Jillians FAQ and Jetstone uses (it does not seem to apply to Hobgoblin knights or to eastern style human infantry like old FAQ or UnaRoyal).


That's another possibility, but we know she's at least high level (Possibly the highest-level non-warlord in the hex, given her position of front-and-center), since Ford was specifically calling his few remaining high level units into that particular huddle. We also know she's a stabber, since she's been seen wielding a sword, and... stabbing people. The cape could indeed indicate knight status, though. It's a tiny distinction that could help us identify different units in massed combat in the future.
User avatar
Reclaimer
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:49 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby effataigus » Mon May 03, 2010 12:38 pm

Gorky wrote:Hahaha, Ford saying "may the Titans pardon us." I get it.

Hahah, good catch!

If I was in Trem's shoes I'm not sure what I would do. It does seem wasteful to spend any effort croaking a force that might mostly vanish once you get your primary goal. That said, I can see some bad stuff happening in the very short term if they pulled back without a fight and Wanda did survive the night:

1. Wanda flies to the "small" decrypted force.
2. Wanda decrypts the dead Hagarites.
3. Wanda dance-decrypt-fancy-fights and manages to beat out Hagar's forces (and I could see several reasons for Jetstone leaving them where they are or outside Spacerock).
4. Repeat step 2.

Now Wanda is at the head of a rather large force of decrypted Hagarites with a decrypted Sammy on Spacerock's doorstep and Jetstone has nobody left to help them. Faq went home, Hagar is dead, and Charlie isn't answering his calls.

Still not sure though... would depend on the relative numbers, multipliers, and how sure I was that I could win the fight with GK without risking the important bits. If I could, I would, and then I'd leave some infantry behind to guard the bodies and take the rest back with me... or carry the bodies with me if possible.
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
User avatar
effataigus
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:49 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby effataigus » Mon May 03, 2010 12:49 pm

effataigus wrote:If I could, I would, and then I'd leave some infantry behind to guard the bodies and take the rest back with me... or carry the bodies with me if possible.


Ummm, whoops. Nope, scratch that. I'd leave the bodies there. I don't think bringing a bunch of bodies to Wanda's feet would be the ideal test of whether she can decrypt across zones (from Trem's standpoint).
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
User avatar
effataigus
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:49 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon May 03, 2010 12:54 pm

gazes_also wrote:One thing that comes across in this page that no-one has commented on is that what would be best for Stanley and GK in general doesn't come into their plan.
They are ready to sacrifice themselves completely in the faint hope of helping save Wanda rather than fighting a defensive holding action to preserve as much of their force as possible so they can survive to retreat in good order or be reinforced on the next turn. What their supposed Overlord would have them do doesn't come into it.
Ford didn't contact GK for orders, he just came up with his Kamikaze plan.
Even Stanley has to realize after this that he is Overlord in name only and Wanda is really running the show. One of them is going to have to go.


This is an excellent point. I wonder if Stanley is even going to have a clue? It's entirely possible the battle could happen quickly enough that he wouldn't even have sent any contradictory orders, he could just figure the commander of the hex acted on his own initiative to do as much damage as he could. The intensity of the loyalty to Wanda (to the extent revealed in the text update, and to the absence of any loyalty to Stanley) might go unnoticed by Stanley for a bit longer.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Rosa Vernal » Mon May 03, 2010 12:59 pm

For all we know, there's some Arkentool link that makes her soldiers think like she does. Probably not directly, but I'm sure Wanda's will somehow manages to filter down.

Of course, "take out dangers" is probably not that hard to think of.
RIP, Grandma. <3
Mar '29 - Oct '10
User avatar
Rosa Vernal
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:21 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Mon May 03, 2010 2:01 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:This is an excellent point. I wonder if Stanley is even going to have a clue? It's entirely possible the battle could happen quickly enough that he wouldn't even have sent any contradictory orders, he could just figure the commander of the hex acted on his own initiative to do as much damage as he could. The intensity of the loyalty to Wanda (to the extent revealed in the text update, and to the absence of any loyalty to Stanley) might go unnoticed by Stanley for a bit longer.


Parson was already contemplating out loud who should be made chief warlord. Maggy is in mental communication with the field units. That counts as a clue. Keeping control of the pliers is important to Stanley.


The Black Hand wrote:Not simply by being in another hex, but by having two allied stacks on opposite sides of a hex containing an enemy stack.

Like so:

Code: Select all
    O O 
   A E A
    O O

    A O 
   O E O
    O A

    O A 
   O E O
    A O


Where O is an Open hex (one clear of units), A is a hex containing Allied units, and E is a hex containing Enemy units.

In the turn-based wargames I've played, all three of those examples are instances of a flanked unit (or stack thereof). Granted, there are more complex examples - generally involving the central hex having units/stacks in three of the hexes surrounding the central one - but I think that this example gets the point across.


Flanking might be useful. The battle mechanics are not that clear. In games that use measurements, most hex games, and also real combat enveloping an opponent allows you to attack with multiple units. We do not know, for example, that the stack bonus applies in all directions at once. Or if the stack bonus is both defense and attack. So flanking could have a lot of advantages.

However, a "hex" is a much larger unit. It could be square miles. Infantry can only march 9 in a day. 20 miles is standard for trained infantry. Some armies regularly marched 40 miles. A combat system using modern forces with rifles and artillery could effect enemies at that range. But not pikes. More important is the fact that things stop at hex boundaries when it is not your turn. For example at exposition bridge there is a hex boundary and arrows stopped and fell harmlessly to into the water.

There is a further problem that Wanda is flying. And they already flew over Tremenis.

It does say somewhere that unled units automatically engage enemy units. Inside of a hex that would effectively stop movement until combat finishes.
pSycHOtic chICkeN
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby splintermute » Mon May 03, 2010 2:36 pm

gazes_also wrote:One thing that comes across in this page that no-one has commented on is that what would be best for Stanley and GK in general doesn't come into their plan.
They are ready to sacrifice themselves completely in the faint hope of helping save Wanda rather than fighting a defensive holding action to preserve as much of their force as possible so they can survive to retreat in good order or be reinforced on the next turn. What their supposed Overlord would have them do doesn't come into it.
Ford didn't contact GK for orders, he just came up with his Kamikaze plan.
Even Stanley has to realize after this that he is Overlord in name only and Wanda is really running the show. One of them is going to have to go.

I don't see how Stanley's and Wanda's goals diverge here. To the decrypted, the most important unit is Wanda. To Stanley, the most important units are Wanda, Jack, Ossomer (his highest-level remaining warlord), the dwagons, and the archons. Anything the decrypted accomplish that helps preserve the GK air force will further both Stanley and Wanda's interests. Stanley has more than a dozen cities - any infantry or twolls lost here are easily replaceable, through either popping or decryption. Wanda and Jack are not.
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby gazes_also » Mon May 03, 2010 3:26 pm

splintermute wrote:
gazes_also wrote:One thing that comes across in this page that no-one has commented on is that what would be best for Stanley and GK in general doesn't come into their plan.
They are ready to sacrifice themselves completely in the faint hope of helping save Wanda rather than fighting a defensive holding action to preserve as much of their force as possible so they can survive to retreat in good order or be reinforced on the next turn. What their supposed Overlord would have them do doesn't come into it.
Ford didn't contact GK for orders, he just came up with his Kamikaze plan.
Even Stanley has to realize after this that he is Overlord in name only and Wanda is really running the show. One of them is going to have to go.

I don't see how Stanley's and Wanda's goals diverge here. To the decrypted, the most important unit is Wanda. To Stanley, the most important units are Wanda, Jack, Ossomer (his highest-level remaining warlord), the dwagons, and the archons. Anything the decrypted accomplish that helps preserve the GK air force will further both Stanley and Wanda's interests. Stanley has more than a dozen cities - any infantry or twolls lost here are easily replaceable, through either popping or decryption. Wanda and Jack are not.

Your missing the point, it's not whether Stanley and Wanda's objectives coincide, it's that Stanley's objectives are completely irrelevant.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon May 03, 2010 4:00 pm

gazes_also wrote:Your missing the point, it's not whether Stanley and Wanda's objectives coincide, it's that Stanley's objectives are completely irrelevant.


Exactly right, IMO.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby The Black Hand » Mon May 03, 2010 8:25 pm

MarbitChow wrote:In most of those games, I'd wager that you are able to attack (and thus threaten) adjacent hexes.
You can't do that in Erfworld - you have to move into the hex to attack.


Actually, that's only been true for two of the games I've played - Military Madness andMilitary Madness 2 - but even then, the attack animations for the games indicated that the attacking units moved into the hex where the defenders were, opened fire, and pulled back.

Then again, they don't exactly have artillery-type units (or, in Erfworld terms, "ranged siege"), so . . . yeah.

We've seen no indication of anything other than actual terrain that applies a penalty to movement.
We've seen lots of indications that units without move cannot threaten units in other hexes (Stanley vs. TV in the pass, for example).


Point taken. However, just because we haven't seen such indications doesn't mean that Erfworld doesn't have such mechanics - it may be that the mechanic exists, but there aren't any units capable of using it yet . . . and who knows? Maybe Parson's experimenting with just that sort of "what-if" scenario.

It's the kind of thing he'd do. "What if ranged units could attack stacks in adjacent hexes?"

The idea of flanking is common to battle simulations, but I'd wager that in Erfworld, flanking only applies to units that are in the same hex.
I'd even wager that it simple acts as a valid tactic (splitting the attention of the enemy and attacking them where they are weak) rather than existing as an actual world mechanic.


The only people who can answer that for certain would be the folks behind the comic.
The strength of our future lies in our past.
-VNV Nation

There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare.
-Sun-tzu, The Art of War
The Black Hand
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby kriss » Mon May 03, 2010 9:08 pm

The Black Hand wrote:The only people who can answer that for certain would be the folks behind the comic.


Right, I'm going past the Iwon Curtain to get the answer. I really think Rob can let this one be answered as it would make things a lot simpler when it comes to understanding the flow of battle.
I think therefore I am. This leaves you in a bad spot.

Army inteligence is sadly an oximoron these days. And no General, I did not just call you a cow.

I cut myself shaving with Occam's razor.
User avatar
kriss
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:58 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Trotsky » Mon May 03, 2010 11:23 pm

kriss wrote:He is also the first president to have an assasination attempt, the first president to survive an assasination attempt, and the only president to survive two assasination attemps! The second time became legendary, as his assailant purst out from hiding, leveled a pistol, and it missfired. He then pulled out a second, which also missfired. Later, the guns were tested multiple times, only to find that they fired perfectly every single time with deadly accuracy. This lead manny to belive that Jackson had divine protection.


Don't forget that Jackson also beat the man about the head with his cane. And was in his late 60s at the time.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:"Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


DoctorJest, if I weren't referentially married to my sig I'd use that instead.
User avatar
Trotsky
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:29 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby kriss » Mon May 03, 2010 11:41 pm

trotsky wrote:
kriss wrote:He is also the first president to have an assasination attempt, the first president to survive an assasination attempt, and the only president to survive two assasination attemps! The second time became legendary, as his assailant purst out from hiding, leveled a pistol, and it missfired. He then pulled out a second, which also missfired. Later, the guns were tested multiple times, only to find that they fired perfectly every single time with deadly accuracy. This lead manny to belive that Jackson had divine protection.


Don't forget that Jackson also beat the man about the head with his cane. And was in his late 60s at the time.


Oh yeah, he actually had to be restrained to keep from beating his would be assasin to death.
I think therefore I am. This leaves you in a bad spot.

Army inteligence is sadly an oximoron these days. And no General, I did not just call you a cow.

I cut myself shaving with Occam's razor.
User avatar
kriss
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:58 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby splintermute » Mon May 03, 2010 11:57 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
gazes_also wrote:Your missing the point, it's not whether Stanley and Wanda's objectives coincide, it's that Stanley's objectives are completely irrelevant.


Exactly right, IMO.

I know that Stanley's objectives are irrelevant to them - the point I was making was that, since they're still acting to incidentally further Stanley's objectives, Stanley wouldn't necessarily know or find out from this particular battle that his objectives are irrelevant to them - hence no grand reckoning between Stanley and Wanda just yet (at least not based on this battle - her actions over the Jetstone capital are something else entirely).
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue May 04, 2010 12:37 pm

splintermute wrote:I know that Stanley's objectives are irrelevant to them - the point I was making was that, since they're still acting to incidentally further Stanley's objectives, Stanley wouldn't necessarily know or find out from this particular battle that his objectives are irrelevant to them - hence no grand reckoning between Stanley and Wanda just yet (at least not based on this battle - her actions over the Jetstone capital are something else entirely).


Right. I think that's echoing my point as well, so I wholeheartedly agree. :)
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Tue May 04, 2010 2:30 pm

splintermute wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
gazes_also wrote:Your missing the point, it's not whether Stanley and Wanda's objectives coincide, it's that Stanley's objectives are completely irrelevant.


Exactly right, IMO.

I know that Stanley's objectives are irrelevant to them - the point I was making was that, since they're still acting to incidentally further Stanley's objectives, Stanley wouldn't necessarily know or find out from this particular battle that his objectives are irrelevant to them - hence no grand reckoning between Stanley and Wanda just yet (at least not based on this battle - her actions over the Jetstone capital are something else entirely).


The French knights that charged after/with Joan of Arc would have been highly offended by a suggestion that they were somehow disloyal to France, the king, or the church. At any given moment the knights would have been focussed on Joan and on killing or disabling any enemy that might pose a threat to her. Joan was not in possession of any nifty artifacts, it was just good tactic for focusing heavy cavalry. Joan was never a threat to Charles VII.
pSycHOtic chICkeN
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby splintermute » Tue May 04, 2010 5:52 pm

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:The French knights that charged after/with Joan of Arc would have been highly offended by a suggestion that they were somehow disloyal to France, the king, or the church. At any given moment the knights would have been focussed on Joan and on killing or disabling any enemy that might pose a threat to her. Joan was not in possession of any nifty artifacts, it was just good tactic for focusing heavy cavalry. Joan was never a threat to Charles VII.

I don't think the decrypted would care if they were accused of disloyalty to Stanley or Gobwin Knob, as long as no one accused them of not serving Wanda to the best of their abilities.
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby multilis » Wed May 05, 2010 1:47 am

splintermute wrote:
pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:I don't think the decrypted would care if they were accused of disloyalty to Stanley or Gobwin Knob, as long as no one accused them of not serving Wanda to the best of their abilities.

But that is an *assumption*. We don't really know.

We know they start with huge loyalty to Wanda, we don't know if that can erode with time, Wanda seemed to think it could in explaining her reason for leaving Ansom behind.

We know that non-decrypted have natural thinkomancy to their side and king, especially high level units, yet we didn't hear much mention of king of Jetstone by his men in book 1, only praise of Ansom.

We also have hints from TV that a conflict between a king (Don) and a high ranked unit (Caeser) risks loyalty problems with ordinary units.
multilis
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby teratorn » Wed May 05, 2010 3:50 pm

I've found this text horrifying, and I've wondered if Wrigley is one the decrypted in this hex. These guys already had horrid, abject deaths because of Wanda, and now are willing to be butchered in her name.
User avatar
teratorn
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:33 am
Location: Algarve

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 022

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed May 05, 2010 4:03 pm

Just a note on tactics. We know the Jetstone forces are adjacent to the remaining GK forces. I'm pretty sure we DON'T know how far the Jetstone stack is from the capital.

If we assume the attack on the remaining GK forces will be a cakewalk (as seems likely), and if we further assume that Jetstone believes it will have enough to take out Wanda after the cakewalk (as also seems likely), then it seems likely the right call is to mop up the remaining GK forces and return to the capital. Because we don't know that the low-move heavies and heavy infantry (and probably archers) will have enough movement to return to GK, kill Wanda's stack, and then return to mop up the remaining GK forces. And it would seem wasteful to leave them alive and provide an opportunity to escape, because they don't know they'll disappear if Wanda dies.

Of course, Jetstone doesn't know about Wanda's upcoming tactic. We do, but they don't. Hence, a perfectly logical course of action (mopping up the remaining GK forces before returning to the capital), will in retrospect seem like a bad decision. Especially if Ford takes out a caster, or some flyers and archery.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests