Book 2 – Page 31

[Kozbot]

I already like Jillian, but it is never a bad idea to stop a character getting to big for their boots (unless that is how it is meant to be), so not a bad point, although timing is important for such things, otherwise it looks forced. I guess this page would have be a chance for Trem to say it, but he doesn't really know Jillian or her track record and could only have chided her for leaving like that. Charlie could I guess, but that isn't his style. Ansom well could, I look forward to seeing some turner/turnee conversations.

The person I could best see something like that coming from and have the right impact would be Vinnie. He knows about loyalty and duty (the concepts, not the stats) - he could question Jillian risking so much for Ansom and leaving the battle like that.

Vinnie calling Jillian out once she gets back to Faq, especially after Wanda's probable survival and how that would please Jillian would be great. That would really reverse the "everyone thinks she's awesome" vibe that's going on and Vinnie knows her well enough to really get some good cutting remarks without being an unreasonable jerk about it.

[AllPurposeNerd]

For real though, did Tramennis just come out?

[effataigus]

I first started disliking Jillian when it was revealed Jack loved her, that to me crossed the line from having a female character in a classic love triangle, which I thought was incredibly well done, to giving Jillian the apparent special ability "Everyone likes/loves me" which may very well be one of her bonuses the way everyone reacts to her.

Reading this made me realize that that was also the moment that I started looking for reasons to dislike her. Nevermind the numbers of her crushes, Jack is one of my favorite characters and he can do so much better. Can you imagine their dinnertime conversations?

Jillian: "Salt."
Jack: *passes salt* "Does the food need salt, does the salt need food, or do the hands just need work while the jaw catches up?"
Jillian: *nom nom nom nom nom grunt*
Jack: "I should have known, for your eyes are like the seas, and the seas ask not why they seek salt."
Jillian: "...honey, just shut up."
Jack:

At least he seems to recognize this himself: "Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise."

[DevilDan]

I quickly decided that I don't care what Rob shows us: He's doing a fine job and I'm not going to sit here and say "I want more of this character" or "I don't want too many strips about this character."

Please.

Either you like the story or you don't. Either you trust Rob or you don't. To appropriate a line from a movie, it's Rob's barbecue and it tastes good.

[teratorn]

For real though, did Tramennis just come out?

It looks like...

[BLANDCorporatio]

Well, on the same page Duke Antium isn't liking her

Ah, so that's his name. And how did he come across? Like a stuck-up pillock, amIrite? Between Antium's scorn and Tremmennis' praise, which do you think was the reaction we were supposed to judge as "correct"?

Whatver, I sure hope, as others suggested, that Vinnie may know and care enough to remind Jillian that reliability is sometimes needed.

I quickly decided that I don't care what Rob shows us: He's doing a fine job and I'm not going to sit here and say "I want more of this character" or "I don't want too many strips about this character."

Please.

Either you like the story or you don't. Either you trust Rob or you don't. To appropriate a line from a movie, it's Rob's barbecue and it tastes good.

Only Decrypted think you must enjoy all meats at a barbecue.

Some are overdone. Some are still twitching. Each to their own for the barbecue is big. And I may complain when an ultra-crispy slice lands on my plate.

[atalex]

Jack is one of my favorite characters and he can do so much better.

Can he? What other characters are there for him to hook up with?
Maggie: She's practically hitting on Parson.
Wanda: Ewww. Probably not.
Sylvia: Totally fixated on Wanda.
Janis: Hasn't been on screen enough to interact in any way.
Trammenis: Even assuming Jack swings that way (and I suspect he might), they're on opposite sides and have had no screen time together.

Given the development of the plot so far, there is no other character for Jack to realistically be in love with.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Can he? What other characters are there for him to hook up with?
Maggie: She's practically hitting on Parson.
Wanda: Ewww. Probably not.
Sylvia: Totally fixated on Wanda.
Janis: Hasn't been on screen enough to interact in any way.
Trammenis: Even assuming Jack swings that way (and I suspect he might), they're on opposite sides and have had no screen time together.

Given the development of the plot so far, there is no other character for Jack to realistically be in love with.

...

There is a witty retort to the above list. It is also so obvious I will not be making it.

Instead, more of a tinfoil hat theory- Jillian, inadvertently or otherwise, kills off rival female characters around her. A very Queen Bee thing to do, btw.

[atalex]

And how did he come across? Like a stuck-up pillock, amIrite? Between Antium's scorn and Tremmennis' praise, which do you think was the reaction we were supposed to judge as "correct"?

"Correct" about what? This debate seems to be between people complaining that Jillian is a Mary Sue that everyone inevitably and irrationally falls in love with VS people who don't really see that and are baffled by the fury directed towards both her and the author.

I do not see Trem's praise as indicative of personal affection for Jillian but has admiration for a Royal monarch who is unconventional and who does things her own way. I strongly suspect that Tremmenis, despite being the oldest brother, has been relegated to third in line for succession precisely because he himself is very unconventional and likes to do things his own way, often in ways that shock the "stuck-up pillocks" of his father's court. Now, events have made him the sole heir (de facto, at least -- I assume Slately will make him the official heir this turn), and there remains a serious likelihood that his father will die in such a way that he becomes the new king of Jetstone, and at the same time, he is confronted by this brash, uncouth Barbarian Queen who is what she is and doesn't give a damn about what courtiers think about her behavior. How could he not view her as, at the very least, inspirational.

[effataigus]

Either you like the story or you don't. Either you trust Rob or you don't. To appropriate a line from a movie, it's Rob's barbecue and it tastes good.

If A then A. If not B then not B. Unless... waiiiit.... we're you trying to...Oh, I see what you did THAR. This one of those "If you're opposed to the patriot act" things, isn't it??!!

The forum is entitled "reactions." Some peoples' reactions are to nerd rage against Jillian (mine included). If anything raging against Jillian is a sign of my (probably unhealthy) level of involvement with the story (which I'll say again that I love (nice art again while I'm at it!)) I wasn't on the forums back then, but I used to nerd rage against Ansom and boy did I love it when Bogroll wiped that smug expression off of his face.

I like (put mildly) the story. I trust Rob. I'm a vegetarian, but vaguely recall having liked BBQ once. I love (the United States of) America in a complicated way. I don't like Jillian.

My anti-Jillian sentiments are 1 part her standing in opposition to the characters I really like and one part her upstaging the characters that I really like. This is less of a story criticism for me and more of "man I can't wait until Jillian playing fast and loose with the fortunes of the people that support her and rely upon her comes back to bite her."

Not to imply I'll never criticize the things I like/love. America has done some shady stuff in (collectively) my name. BBQ has a high free radical content. Rob never put the crayons back in the box in the right order when he was a kid.

On that note I'll echo a criticism for this story that I've seen on the forums: that the plot hasn't been conducive to graphic novel format. There just hasn't been much for Xin to draw. The two scenes that needed a picture, the Megalo-smoosh and the Hagar battle were done *brilliantly*... I learned a lot about Jillian and Wanda's relationship from their expressions too... I just think that while a picture can save a thousand words, these 200 pictures haven't saved 200,000 words... more like 20,000. I love having the pictures, but if I were Xin, I'd be going crazy drawing people gabbing in front of armies. I hope there will be more *edit: visually* dynamic stuff going on in the future. Alternately, If book 3 were a novel, I'd definitely read it!

[BLANDCorporatio]

And how did he come across? Like a stuck-up pillock, amIrite? Between Antium's scorn and Tremmennis' praise, which do you think was the reaction we were supposed to judge as "correct"?

"Correct" about what? This debate seems to be between people complaining that Jillian is a Mary Sue that everyone inevitably and irrationally falls in love with VS people who don't really see that and are baffled by the fury directed towards both her and the author.

Don't be willfully dismissive, you know well enough what correct means. You explain it in the very next paragraph of your post!

Antium is oh so upset that Jillian went away with nary a fare-well, to say nothing of her appalling eating habits. This of course is made to be a silly complaint.

In contrast, as you say Tremmennis "has admiration for a Royal monarch who is unconventional and who does things her own way"; in light of Jillian's recent successes, this is obviously meant to be the more evidence-based and well-adjusted reaction.

Now for the anger bit. None of that admiration is deserved, none of Jillian's support is deserved, and even with all limited evidence Trem should know better.

Rob never put the crayons back in the box in the right order when he was a kid.

The monster!!

[effataigus]

Jack is one of my favorite characters and he can do so much better.

Can he? What other characters are there for him to hook up with?
Maggie: She's practically hitting on Parson.
Wanda: Ewww. Probably not.
Sylvia: Totally fixated on Wanda.
Janis: Hasn't been on screen enough to interact in any way.
Trammenis: Even assuming Jack swings that way (and I suspect he might), they're on opposite sides and have had no screen time together.

Given the development of the plot so far, there is no other character for Jack to realistically be in love with.

You make a good point. I suppose the dating pool in Erfworld is pretty limited if you factor out all of those units with more loyalty than intellect.

Maybe there's an Eyebook dating chatroom? Hmm... the predictamancer was female. Oracles are generally loopy, but never dull.

[BLANDCorporatio]

*cough*Limits may not apply. I've said too much.

[dirocyn]

Jillian's turn just changed the entire tactical situation dramatically. That's something I love about this comic--the other sides are smart and capable of pulling out surprises, and each turn is a whole new world.

With Ansom and Jillian's air force gone, and Sammy of Hagar croaked, Jetstone now has to decide what to do. Jillian's tactical advice--wipe out the ground force--at first glance seems like a foolish and unnecessary risk. But Jetstone really only has 2 options:

1: Draw back into the walls and attack Wanda's air force from the walls/tower. With what? Just archers & spells? Without air force (Jillian's air force was a match for Wanda's) they're seriously lacking in attack power. An all-out attack on Wanda may leave the archers out of ammo and the casters out of juice on GK's turn. With no air force of their own, Jetstone might seriously injure that group but is not likely to wipe them out--remember Parson's gloom and doom calculations were including Jillian in the attack. If Jetstone croaks Wanda it's over, but that's not likely to happen.

2: Mop up the ground column. That force is lacking Ansom's +10 chief warlord bonus, AND Wanda's croakmancer bonus AND the artifact bonus, and they're caught in the open field not dug in. Also, this is the "usual infantry" Jetstone's force was designed to counter. Defeating the ground column should be a relatively low-risk operation, though juice, arrows, and lives spent here can't also be spent attacking Wanda or defending next turn. The real determining issue here is move--if Jetstone can make this attack and move back to the city (which would require move 4 or higher) they probably should. Which would mean both Jillian and Ford were right.

My personal hope? That Jetstone commits its casters and chief warlord across the bridge, at which point Sizemore (who we've not seen lately) collapses the bridge supports.
Option 3: pull out some trick we haven't seen before, such as attack with units we don't know exist.

[Dr Pepper]

For real though, did Tramennis just come out?

No. He was just being Trem.

[Sygerrik]

Ugh. This has always been one of my favorite reads because of the depth and complexity of the characters... Jillian has been on the road to Mary Sue since the summer updates and this is just more of the same.
-She's a powerful fighter
-She's tactically very sharp
-Everyone seems to like/love her
-She never faces consequences for her actions
-She has the ability to pull any resources or knowledge out of her rear whenever necessary, and it's all explained by her "backers."

Whether or not it makes sense in context, having a character this central is damaging to the integrity of the story, because a plot that revolves around her too much comes to rely on her; and not only do more interesting characters get eclipsed, but the author finds himself unable to extricate her without doing damage to the plot. Characters like this just sit there-- they can't be removed, so they simply gain new abilities and behave in whatever way is required to move the story along, making them even blander and more potent.

I seriously hope Jillian's one actual flaw (her overconfidence) explodes in her face soon. That's the hallmark of Mary Sues: they have flaws, but their flaws are never crippling and never seriously hinder them. I'd like to see whether this is the case with Jillian. I have faith in Rob's ability as a writer to avoid this scenario. I am just starting to lose faith in his will to do so.

[Altima]

Can he? What other characters are there for him to hook up with?
Maggie: She's practically hitting on Parson.
Wanda: Ewww. Probably not.
Sylvia: Totally fixated on Wanda.
Janis: Hasn't been on screen enough to interact in any way.
Trammenis: Even assuming Jack swings that way (and I suspect he might), they're on opposite sides and have had no screen time together.

Given the development of the plot so far, there is no other character for Jack to realistically be in love with.

Stanley.

[gazes_also]

Actually, I think Antium is a dig at all the Jillian haters in the forum who don't think she's a "proper" heroic character.

She is being a bit smug in this page but it's understandable; she's just turned the whole situation around. The RCC was facing certain defeat from GK and disintegration from internal treachery, the enemy and the traitors have been spanked. She saved the kingdom of an ungrateful little prig who gave her nothing but distrust and insults. She managed to re-establish Charlie's cred with the royals while keeping his involvement hidden from GK, without actually fully trusting him. She is also the only leader not to have lost a Chief Warlord in this turn.
She doesn't give a flying fadoo what anyone else thinks and she will do what is right in her own eyes. She will protect her kingdom, she is intensely loyal to her friends (in her own way) and she wants to defeat Stanley.
She is a polarizing character, you either love her or hate her, I'm unabashedly in the former camp.

Her advice to Tramennis is biased, but she states that bias, she thinks that Wanda will ditch Stanley if the right pressure is used, because she is not a True Believer in Stanley. She assumes that Wanda will survive whatever happens so JS should do as much damage to the GK as possible by smashing the column. I also think T should ignore her advice and get back and go after Wanda.

This page also confirms that at least some parts of Charlie's contracts are magically binding.

Tramennis is a bit giddy here, but come on, not long ago he was covered in dragon goo expecting to be croaked without being able to raise a hand in self-defence.

I've been reading "The Girl with The Dragon Tattoo" and I see some similarities between Jillian and Lisabeth Salandar: Discuss.

[MonteCristo]

1: Draw back into the walls and attack Wanda's air force from the walls/tower. With what? Just archers & spells? Without air force (Jillian's air force was a match for Wanda's) they're seriously lacking in attack power. An all-out attack on Wanda may leave the archers out of ammo and the casters out of juice on GK's turn. With no air force of their own, Jetstone might seriously injure that group but is not likely to wipe them out--remember Parson's gloom and doom calculations were including Jillian in the attack. If Jetstone croaks Wanda it's over, but that's not likely to happen.

No, based on everything that has been said, Jetstone has more than enough anti-air troops to wipe out the dwagons
The Decryption however, may even the fight out

Stanley is known too after all, but not much liked. And Charlie is known and respected/feared (and every 10 strips or so we are reminded why). Meanwhile, Jillian is liked because? ... If love is blind (but I repeat, why do so many people suffer from the same blindness?!) then respect at least should be earned, and a good chunk of what Jillian is now doing is only possible because of Don's and Charlie's massive support. Any idiot can be a good captain in good weather, as Faq has had, and as Jillian is.

You really can't see what Jillain does that neither of them do?

If you look at the reasons why each person likes Jillian its obvious why charlie and Stanley do not get the same treatment
- Jillian is NOT actively looking to conquer anyone else other than Stanley who everyone else hates... this is why Charlie(mistakenly) and Stanley are hated
- Jillian appears to be very competent on the battlefield... sure this is actually charlie's work, but nobody else but charlie knows that... Stanley however is an idiot
- Jillian is willing to allow herself to be used by others... she's grown to dislike Don, and never trusted charlie, but she is willing to let them use her for their own ends... this is how she earns favor from Charlie and Don... Hell in charlie's case, Jillian is giving him his only shot at getting back into the royals favor
- Jillian may be self serving but she is not out to intentionally screw anyone over.. She may be leaving at this moment, but she is leaving under the belief that Jetstone and Haggar can take care of themselves... Charlie however, not so much, he can be a real pain to deal with

Some may hate Jillian for being selfish and leaving when she could contribute more, but as far as everyone else is concerned she already did A LOT to help save Jetstone... Ending GK's turn saved jetstone and gave them every chance they needed to stop the dwagons... Trem nor vinnie are gonna begrudge Jillian for leaving after doing so much to help them... Don and Charlie however are probably pulling some hairs at the moment since they don't like it when things don't work as planned, but even then they won't completely hate her; that is unless everything at spacerock DOES turn sour

[DevilDan]

"None of her admiration is deserved."

Yes, but most of what you call "admiration" is just that: admiration of some or another part of her character, not the utter slavishness or adoration that you seem to imply is most everyone's due to the character. She gets some measure of admiration from some, some loyalty and duty from others, and she's getting used by the rest. Compared to Tramennis's brothers, Jill is refreshingly direct.

Besides, Jill isn't a regular Mary Sue because she relies so thoroughly on so many others: Don't money, Charlie's smarts, Wanda's love, and on Ansom (when he rescued her from being stabbed in the dwagon battle over the lake).

When I say I trust Rob, I mean that he's too canny to let her become a Mary Sue anyway. And everyone's current accusations will be so much egg, crow, and humble pie. Oh, look, I just happen to have a for ready. How fortunate.