Book 2 – Page 31

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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri May 07, 2010 6:24 pm

DevilDan wrote:I quickly decided that I don't care what Rob shows us: He's doing a fine job and I'm not going to sit here and say "I want more of this character" or "I don't want too many strips about this character."

Please.

Either you like the story or you don't. Either you trust Rob or you don't. To appropriate a line from a movie, it's Rob's barbecue and it tastes good.

...
DevilDan wrote:When I say I trust Rob, I mean that he's too canny to let her become a Mary Sue anyway. And everyone's current accusations will be so much egg, crow, and humble pie. Oh, look, I just happen to have a for ready. How fortunate.


I'm not really sure why you have apparently felt the need to become combative about this. There is a healthy contingent of readers who apparently either don't care for Jillian, or at least for the way she has been fawned over (my take) so far in Book Two. And that's about it. I love this story and support it with my money, time and interest. And one of the benefits (?) of the serial format is the ability to provide real-time reactions and feedback. I would think that is a great benefit to an author, who can use those reactions and feedback as a barometer to see if he's accomplishing within his readers what he's intending with his prose. And given the fan-centric nature of these boards (which is only natural, given that we all like the story, or at least have sufficient interest in it to actually post here), the fact that a healthy contingent apparently either don't care for Jillian, or at least for the way she has been fawned over so far in Book Two, is somewhat telling, IMO.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby MKBG » Fri May 07, 2010 7:15 pm

the fact that a healthy contingent apparently either don't care for Jillian, or at least for the way she has been fawned over so far in Book Two, is somewhat telling


Or, perhaps, those of us who really do love the character and her devil-may-care exterior and easily wounded interior are just not spending a great deal of time posting on the boards right now because 1) we are happy with the current Jillian-centric plotline and 2) we are avoiding arguments with those of you who disagree.

It's the old 'voluntary feedback' problem. The only one's who bother to give feedback are the ones that are really unhappy with the situation, thus skewing the results.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri May 07, 2010 7:25 pm

MKBG wrote:Or, perhaps, those of us who really do love the character and her devil-may-care exterior and easily wounded interior are just not spending a great deal of time posting on the boards right now because 1) we are happy with the current Jillian-centric plotline and 2) we are avoiding arguments with those of you who disagree.

It's the old 'voluntary feedback' problem. The only one's who bother to give feedback are the ones that are really unhappy with the situation, thus skewing the results.


I match you with the "silent majority" of Jillian haters who are unhappy with the plotline (but not feeling strongly enough to post) or are avoiding arguments with Jillian supporters.

Certainly, feedback alone is not going to be a foolproof method, given the small sample size and various issues relating to selection bias (both for and against). That said, I think it's more accurate than you apparently are maintaining. I used the term "healthy contingent" quite deliberately, in that I am not seeking to quantify or claim one is more than the other.

I think a number of people have presented reasonable points for why they find Jillian-as-currently-presented at least somewhat unpalatable. Perhaps that is a deliberate choice by the author and he is looking forward to taking her down a peg or two, in which case he would probably be pleased to know that he is accomplishing what he intends. Or it might be a good check for him to think about why a healthy contingent just doesn't see her the way he does, or wants us to.

Only he's going to know the answer to that, although we might get a hint as the story plays out. I am content to wait for that and reserve judgment.

But in the meantime, I'm pontificating and speculating, just like most of the rest of you. Because I hear that's what we do here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Menas » Fri May 07, 2010 7:28 pm

Jillian's a loose cannon.

But I like her anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Reclaimer » Fri May 07, 2010 8:15 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
ShieldOfAthena wrote:Stanley doesn't like her, does that count?


But Stanley is an unlikable idiot. So no, I don't think he counts under the previous poster's formulation.


You say "unlikeable idiot", I say "coolest native Erfworlder". He's a badass under-dog, and his speech to Parson upon being referred to as the "bad guy" is still one of the most insightful things any Erfer's had to say about their lot in life. He's not a genius, he's not an entitled little boop; he's worked his ass off for everything he's got, and his actions just might lead to the breaking of Erfworld, which itself is a total, inhumane mess (arguably making him an anti-hero).

He's low-brow and self-centered, easily distracted by naked Croakamancers (but who isn't?), and he has an unhealthy fascination with destroying all those who oppose him. I love the hell out of the little bastard. I know I'm supposed to hate him, but he's the underdog with big, sharp teeth. Even if he is a giant Tool.

Jillian wishes she was half as bad-ass. Some dislike her because she's very well-liked and plot-centric, but everybody's unanimous in hating Stanley. Pff.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri May 07, 2010 8:47 pm

Reclaimer wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
ShieldOfAthena wrote:Stanley doesn't like her, does that count?


But Stanley is an unlikable idiot. So no, I don't think he counts under the previous poster's formulation.


I know I'm supposed to hate him,
...
but everybody's unanimous in hating Stanley.


The part of your post I quote above is pretty much all I'm saying. I'm not disputing that some people are going to like Stanley, just that it's mostly in spite of how he's been written, and that it's a minority view, essentially.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby effataigus » Fri May 07, 2010 9:37 pm

Hmm...

Seems to me that there are 2 sets of objections here:

1. That Jillian is, for now, the main character.

2. That Jillian is getting success against great odds without personally doing anything impressive (Parson by contrast seemed to have mostly catastrophes against great odds despite doing many impressive things).

I agree with both of these statements, but I'm sure that many forumites and many readers would disagree with one or both. (EDIT, and some would agree with one or the other without finding it to be a problem.)

I'm thinking that it is a moot point either way. For raison d'plot Jillian has just sailed off into the sunset and willingly given up the spotlight right when things are getting interesting (again).

Let the schmuckers hit the fan :twisted:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Kozbot » Fri May 07, 2010 9:41 pm

gazes_also wrote:Actually, I think Antium is a dig at all the Jillian haters in the forum who don't think she's a "proper" heroic character.

She is being a bit smug in this page but it's understandable; she's just turned the whole situation around. The RCC was facing certain defeat from GK and disintegration from internal treachery, the enemy and the traitors have been spanked. She saved the kingdom of an ungrateful little prig who gave her nothing but distrust and insults. She managed to re-establish Charlie's cred with the royals while keeping his involvement hidden from GK, without actually fully trusting him. She is also the only leader not to have lost a Chief Warlord in this turn.
She doesn't give a flying fadoo what anyone else thinks and she will do what is right in her own eyes. She will protect her kingdom, she is intensely loyal to her friends (in her own way) and she wants to defeat Stanley.
She is a polarizing character, you either love her or hate her, I'm unabashedly in the former camp.

Her advice to Tramennis is biased, but she states that bias, she thinks that Wanda will ditch Stanley if the right pressure is used, because she is not a True Believer in Stanley. She assumes that Wanda will survive whatever happens so JS should do as much damage to the GK as possible by smashing the column. I also think T should ignore her advice and get back and go after Wanda.

This page also confirms that at least some parts of Charlie's contracts are magically binding.

Tramennis is a bit giddy here, but come on, not long ago he was covered in dragon goo expecting to be croaked without being able to raise a hand in self-defence.

I've been reading "The Girl with The Dragon Tattoo" and I see some similarities between Jillian and Lisabeth Salandar: Discuss.


I'm not sure I agree with your assessment, I haven't seen much of Jillian's loyalty, let alone calling it intense. I've seen more of "I like this person in a very selfish way" attitude, first towards Wanda then Ansom. I haven't seen her show much loyalty to the Don or to any RCC2 faction. I also haven't seem much of Jillian's concern for her kingdom, but then no one in erfworld seems concerned with their kingdom in the traditional sense of protecting the people or any of that, kingdoms exist solely to wage war.

I will agree that she doesn't care what anyone else thinks and does whatever she wants, or at least can get away with, sadly these traits fail to win me over despite the fact that I usually enjoy the uncouth barbarian with a huge sword types.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Zavion » Fri May 07, 2010 10:31 pm

I think my problem with Jillian isn't so much that she gets away with everything she does (even though she totally does) as I could deal with that if it was written as if she was very cunning, or even that everyone luuuvs her (which could be justified if she wasn't so selfish), it's the fact more that everyone that hates her seems to only do so because because she's uncouth. Like that was her only personality flaw. Or they happen to be greedy buttmuches themselves and only dislike her because they're villains trying to use her.

Like the worst anyone sees in her is the fact she eats apples while talking to people.

She does absolutely whatever she wants to get what she wants and doesn't care who she hurts, but she's portrayed as the golden child, and everyone else, readers included, are expected to fawn over her, and the closest thing the comic will admit to as a flaw, is supposed to come off as charming or, even really the right thing to do.

She reminds me, honestly of Bella.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby effataigus » Fri May 07, 2010 10:41 pm

Zavion wrote:She reminds me, honestly of *****.


:o
Can't believe you just dropped a B-bomb on this forum...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby MonteCristo » Sat May 08, 2010 12:01 am

Zavion wrote:She does absolutely whatever she wants to get what she wants and doesn't care who she hurts, but she's portrayed as the golden child, and everyone else, readers included, are expected to fawn over her, and the closest thing the comic will admit to as a flaw, is supposed to come off as charming or, even really the right thing to do.

Thing is, why should any characters in erfworld not like jillian?
-Selling out Jetstone to Wanda? nobody knows about it so nobody can hate her for it. She can't even suffer consequences since nobody knows about it...
-heading to the column right after kingsworld, instead of fighting wanda? Well ya Charlie doesn't exactly seem pleased but he can't really afford to chew her out over it as long as she's he's only chance... and slately hasn't given a reaction... same kind went for Trem since he knows that if wanted any chance of getting Jillian to work with him, getting angry with her was nt the way; that's just good diplomacy.
-Leaving instead of helping fight wanda? Well ya some people probably ARE angry but most of those people haven't shown any reaction yet... such as Don, and Slately... However, considering how she already managed to completely turn around a doomed situation, their angry will be rather mild... hard to criticize someone who already saved your ass (sure that was thanks to charlie, but again, nobody but charlie knows that). And by all appearances the RCC2 does STILL have the advantage over Wanda and the dwagons even without Jillians help; so people like Trem are not willing to begrudge her for leaving early.
- The ONLY thing people could hate her and make her suffer the consequences of her actions is IF shit goes poorly at the battle of spacerock; Don is likely gonna be pissed... but ofcourse that fight hasn't happened yet... The results of Jillian's decisions NEED to play out completely before you can say whether or not she ever suffers consequences.

This is kinda like when people were trying to call out plotholes and say rob was re-writing the story when people pointed things... most of these accusations were wholly inaccurate because they never waited for the story to finish to see if those really were plotholes or see how rob was gonna let things play out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat May 08, 2010 12:04 am

effataigus wrote:
Zavion wrote:She reminds me, honestly of *****.


:o
Can't believe you just dropped a B-bomb on this forum...


Bella... Bella... nope, I've got nothing. Wait, was she the female lead in Disney's Beauty and the Beast? Oh, I thought she was a very kind and compassionate girl in that movie. Not like Jillian at all.

Anyways, I see Jillian as a female Stanley in terms of personality. Maybe smarter and with less of an ego, but neither of these is saying much. What sort of set her tone for me was way back in book 1 when she got into a fight with Webinar after "escaping." He informs her she is expected to stay with their advanced force to help protect it from Dwagon retaliation. She flatly refuses and insults Webinar due to his lower level and then proceeds to insult his girlfriend as well due to her even lower level. It's one thing to be a free spirit and not like rules, its another thing to be a complete jerk to those who are mainly trying to do their job, which in this case was helping out Jillian.

As a person whose had to both work in groups and lead groups, the jerk who can't maintain a working relationship with their peers makes my life harder and him or her the scum of the earth. Not as bad as the boss who doesn't know how to do his job so he thinks he knows how to do mine better and constantly lets me know.

Now, Book 2 has lowered my opinion of Jillian even lower. Not because of any "Mary Sue" like qualities. But because of the decisions shes made, especially the offer to Wanda to turn and capture Jetstone. That has to be the most "douche-bag," a term I never use lightly, thing I've seen in the comic so far.

That being said, I'm sort of hoping somebody, such as Parson gets a chance to call her out on her bad behavior. She might not be putting herself on a pedestal, but she's perfectly willing to kick everyone else into the mud.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat May 08, 2010 12:21 am

@Monte

You make some good points as to why the RCC2 and Charlie shouldn't logically be overly upset at Jillian, since she did a lot to make their position more tenable, though Slately did figure out that she was negotiating Jetstone's fall with Wanda, and when he called her on it she didn't deny it.

However, her behavior sort of reminds me of a guy who used to play for my Cleveland Indians named Milton Bradley. He was a very solid hitter. However, he apparently was an absolute pain to work with. Since his Major League career began in 2000, he's played for eight different teams. It's not his ability to play baseball which causes him to be so often traded, its his attitude and behavior.

Jillian is cut from very similar cloth. She might have gotten the job done, but the insults, the keeping her allies in the dark, the demands without explanation, and the general unwillingness to be a good ally makes her seem like more of a burden then an asset.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby DevilDan » Sat May 08, 2010 12:26 am

Haha, I was just having a bit of fun, Anson. Sorry it distracted you from the rest of my post, which you didn't address.

DevilDan wrote:"None of her admiration is deserved."

Yes, but most of what you call "admiration" is just that: admiration of some or another part of her character, not the utter slavishness or adoration that you seem to imply is most everyone's due to the character. She gets some measure of admiration from some, some loyalty and duty from others, and she's getting used by the rest. Compared to Tramennis's brothers, Jill is refreshingly direct.

Besides, Jill isn't a regular Mary Sue because she relies so thoroughly on so many others: Don't money, Charlie's smarts, Wanda's love, and on Ansom (when he rescued her from being stabbed in the dwagon battle over the lake).


Oh, and I shudder at the suggestion that Rob actually change the story in a significant manner to satisfy readers. It seems like the shortest path to sinking this comic.

By the by, I'm no particular fan of Jill. Past her chafing at her duties, I find both Wanda, Jack, and--even now--Ansom more interesting and, yes, compelling characters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Altima » Sat May 08, 2010 12:28 am

Lord Kasavin wrote:Anyways, I see Jillian as a female Stanley in terms of personality. Maybe smarter and with less of an ego, but neither of these is saying much. What sort of set her tone for me was way back in book 1 when she got into a fight with Webinar after "escaping." He informs her she is expected to stay with their advanced force to help protect it from Dwagon retaliation. She flatly refuses and insults Webinar due to his lower level and then proceeds to insult his girlfriend as well due to her even lower level. It's one thing to be a free spirit and not like rules, its another thing to be a complete jerk to those who are mainly trying to do their job, which in this case was helping out Jillian


Hmm, I always saw Jillian as the traditional male action hero. But with breasts. And over the course of months instead of compressed into a two-hour flick.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby name lips » Sat May 08, 2010 3:15 am

Dr Pepper wrote:
AllPurposeNerd wrote:For real though, did Tramennis just come out?


No. He was just being Trem.

It makes me wonder... what do Erfworlders think of homosexuality? Most of our historical, real-world perception of sexuality are tied in with reproduction, family units, social control, or whatever. But in a world where units simply pop, would anybody care? Would they even classify it differently, or have special terms for it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby name lips » Sat May 08, 2010 3:18 am

DevilDan wrote:Haha, I was just having a bit of fun, Anson. Sorry it distracted you from the rest of my post, which you didn't address.

DevilDan wrote:"None of her admiration is deserved."

Yes, but most of what you call "admiration" is just that: admiration of some or another part of her character, not the utter slavishness or adoration that you seem to imply is most everyone's due to the character. She gets some measure of admiration from some, some loyalty and duty from others, and she's getting used by the rest. Compared to Tramennis's brothers, Jill is refreshingly direct.

Besides, Jill isn't a regular Mary Sue because she relies so thoroughly on so many others: Don't money, Charlie's smarts, Wanda's love, and on Ansom (when he rescued her from being stabbed in the dwagon battle over the lake).


Oh, and I shudder at the suggestion that Rob actually change the story in a significant manner to satisfy readers. It seems like the shortest path to sinking this comic.

By the by, I'm no particular fan of Jill. Past her chafing at her duties, I find both Wanda, Jack, and--even now--Ansom more interesting and, yes, compelling characters.

I still have a soft spot for PARSON. Remember him? The main character from the last book, of whom we've seen almost nothing recently? Erfworld is fascinating because we see it through the eyes of a normal person, somebody from our world with whom we can relate. But he doesn't seem in the middle of the action anymore. It doesn't seem like his story anymore.

I worry that he's not the main character this time around.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 08, 2010 3:44 am

DevilDan wrote:Oh, and I shudder at the suggestion that Rob actually change the story in a significant manner to satisfy readers. It seems like the shortest path to sinking this comic.


Hear hear, we agree here.

Things to disagree with below.

gazes_also wrote:Actually, I think Antium is a dig at all the Jillian haters in the forum who don't think she's a "proper" heroic character.


Heh, exactly!

But, ya know, maybe she IS a heroic character after all, by the Discworld definition (a sociopath that can get away with anything). (However in Discworld, you at least have the cool people like Sam Vimes and Susan call out heroes for what they are).

I've been reading "The Girl with The Dragon Tattoo" and I see some similarities between Jillian and Lisabeth Salandar: Discuss.


Dear God please no. I was planning to read those books soon!

MonteCristo wrote:This is kinda like when people were trying to call out plotholes and say rob was re-writing the story when people pointed things... most of these accusations were wholly inaccurate because they never waited for the story to finish to see if those really were plotholes or see how rob was gonna let things play out.


DevilDan wrote:When I say I trust Rob, I mean that he's too canny to let her become a Mary Sue anyway. And everyone's current accusations will be so much egg, crow, and humble pie. Oh, look, I just happen to have a for ready. How fortunate.


Nope. When you say "trust Rob", you mean praise the Titans or shut yer pie-hole.

Anyway- Cleveland Indians. Steven Seagal. Twilight. Garth Marenghi's Darkplace. Millenium Trilogy. Which other recent reaction thread was this much fun? Would it be better if all posts were a variation on "cool story"?

In fact, this thread may have enough momentum to surpass 200 posts, and Rob and Xin are probably getting a kick out of that.

Not because they need the reactions to know what to do next. Not because reaction counts are a perfect indicator of reader interest.

But they are a pretty good indicator of reader interest. If people care enough to argue -*cough*I said ARGUE- about your story, surely you're doing something right.

Now, I agree that we can only judge Book 2 once it's done (and generally I refrain from comparing Book 2 to Book 1, except that one time), but as I said, here are the pages, here is what's going on, react!

And what if the reaction ain't positive? What if the authors intend to modulate the audience's feelings? Would they not be pleased to know they're doing a good job?

In two months, when Book 2 is over, something awesome will happen. Something which will not only please Jillian fans, but also satisfy us critics. Until then, can't we enjoy arguing?

MonteCristo wrote:{Jillian displayed a lot of battlefield competence and saved Jetstone}


Lord Kasavin gave a good reply to that, to which I'd add that it should be clear by now that Jillian has been receiving Charlie's assistance. Together with the already known fact of her Transylvitan backing, as well as the fact that the Decrypted Steamroller was not headed her way for a while now, makes her ability to bring troops to assisst Jetstone much less impressive.

DevilDan wrote:Yes, but most of what you call "admiration" is just that: admiration of some or another part of her character, not the utter slavishness or adoration that you seem to imply is most everyone's due to the character.


Duncan, for instance, is as slavish as they come; Don and Charlie've been very serving too. As for Trem, the line between respect and fawning over may be a fuzzy one, but when he belittles himself ("I hope to be half the") to praise her ("Queen she is") that's not just admiration or respect.

Besides, Jill isn't a regular Mary Sue because she relies so thoroughly on so many others: Don't money, Charlie's smarts, Wanda's love, and on Ansom (when he rescued her from being stabbed in the dwagon battle over the lake).


Yeah ... why do all those others rely on her mmm? I won't employ the term you did about Jillian, but suffice to say that many characters at which it is thrown also receive lots of support from other characters. Indeed, they are the center of everyone's concerns.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby mastigo » Sat May 08, 2010 3:49 am

fruityjanitor wrote:Well I liked this page.

I don't think "Like I'd hope to be half the queen she is" is supposed to be interpreted as "Hey readers! Isn't Jillian the greatest character in this comic?!". He just sees that she does things differently from most royals (doesn't care about manners, willing to deal with non-Royals and supposed Toolists, etc.) and she gets results. Wanda & the Decrypted (as well as Parson and his unorthodox strategies) are like no force the Royals have ever faced before. To defeat them, they need to be willing to do things they wouldn't be willing to do before. I think Trem realizes that and I hope this is foreshadowing that he will soon be the ruler of Jetstone.

So I guess the reason people say that Jillian is Rob's favorite character is because lately, she is always getting what she wants. But during Book 1, it seemed like Ansom would always get what he wanted (Parson would get minor victories here and there, and then Ansom would absolutely crush him) but we all know that Book 1 didn't end very well for him...


It's also important to remember the prince really likes tweaking people's noses. He could have just been saying it to irritate the guy lecturing him. That, or just trying to play a bit of politics to try to help cement Jillian (and thus FAQ) into a long term alliance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 08, 2010 3:52 am

mastigo wrote:That, or just trying to play a bit of politics to try to help cement Jillian (and thus FAQ) into a long term alliance.


Good thinking, but I don't think she heard.
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