Book 2 – Page 31

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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Menlo Marseilles » Sat May 08, 2010 3:56 am

name lips wrote:I still have a soft spot for PARSON. Remember him? The main character from the last book, of whom we've seen almost nothing recently? Erfworld is fascinating because we see it through the eyes of a normal person, somebody from our world with whom we can relate. But he doesn't seem in the middle of the action anymore. It doesn't seem like his story anymore.

I worry that he's not the main character this time around.
I think it's just because of the way Book 2 began (or rather, the way the Intermission ended). Remember, Parson has willingly left the spotlight - he doesn't want to be the main character in this war anymore - so before he takes up that mantle again, something needs to happen, out of his hands, to force him back into the foreground. Hence the need for "Meet the Jetstones" - the first issue of Book 2 - being focused on a battle in which he has little or no stake, a battle which, if Janis's Predictamancy is worth anything, will cause disarray and provide grounds for Sizemore and Maggie to push Parson back into a leadership role. So, tl;dr, hang tight; we should be seeing a lot more of Parson very soon. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby imgran » Sat May 08, 2010 9:28 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Yes, but most of what you call "admiration" is just that: admiration of some or another part of her character, not the utter slavishness or adoration that you seem to imply is most everyone's due to the character.


Duncan, for instance, is as slavish as they come;

Duncan is a subordinate unit. We already know from the Summer Updates last year that subordinate units do not have total free will.

Don and Charlie've been very serving too.


Serving their own ends. Jillian, for both of them, is merely a means to those ends. Convenient for them, convenient at the moment for Jillian, but for Jillian, taking advantage of their strategically-motivated largesse is either like living like a king off a newly-issued credit card, or like trying to set up a lifestyle based on a lump-sum payment -- at some point the piper's bill will come due or the money will run out -- from both Charlie and Don -- and that might be a very bad day for the Kingdom of FAQ. I think she knows that and has decided to use the time she has before the boom drops to her own best advantage.

As for Trem, the line between respect and fawning over may be a fuzzy one, but when he belittles himself ("I hope to be half the") to praise her ("Queen she is") that's not just admiration or respect.


Or maybe a joke to rile up the somewhat stuffy Duke Adam Antium and a pointed reminder by Tramennis to his subordinate to stop trying to push him into the box marked "Generic Prince #3."

Besides, Jill isn't a regular Mary Sue because she relies so thoroughly on so many others: Don't money, Charlie's smarts, Wanda's love, and on Ansom (when he rescued her from being stabbed in the dwagon battle over the lake).


Yeah ... why do all those others rely on her mmm? I won't employ the term you did about Jillian, but suffice to say that many characters at which it is thrown also receive lots of support from other characters. Indeed, they are the center of everyone's concerns.


What... are you even...? That... makes... no.... aaahggh, brain hurts from reading that. It has no bearing on the quote it responds to, and seems to assume that strategic alliance = genuine affection, an element we've been constantly told (had it ground into our faces even) has nothing to do with the realities of Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Salvage » Sat May 08, 2010 9:46 am

Jillian is a great example of a real person. I feel she has more depth, emotion , and personality than many of the other characters and I am glad she is seeing alot of "screen" time. She is brash and foolish often but that is who she is the barbarian queen. I enjoyed the apple touch.
I can see some peoples points about the tactics of attacking the GK column but it seems to me to be a typical erfworlder tactic based on being in "battle mode". It seems all of the characters get overly focused on attack and croaking when they are very near a combat especially if this combat is near to your side leader or a town(or both here).On top of this Tremennis has a large column of his own, casters, leadership and they are one hex away from a fair sized unled(mostly) column of mostly infantry. I see it as good excuse to level some of my troops , if the decrypted dust when wanda dies no one gets xp for them. Also Jillian and Charlie and Haggar have all spent time and resource attacking the column now and Tremennis is feeling the itch after seeing his brothers fight while he could do nothing. Emotions are just as guiding as the rules in fact the emotions of erfworlders seems to be IN the rules for the world. Its not a good idea but I can see it being an idea to consider from an erfworld perspective.
I have very few complaints and I am always awaiting the next update. So I say keep it up! Thank you.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 08, 2010 11:37 am

imgran wrote:Duncan is a subordinate unit. We already know from the Summer Updates last year that subordinate units do not have total free will.


We also know that units, while constrained in action, are free in thought- as in, they can dislike their commander; affection/admiration is not a given.

imgran wrote:Serving their own ends. Jillian, for both of them, is merely a means to those ends. {...} at some point the piper's bill will come due or the money will run out -- from both Charlie and Don -- and that might be a very bad day for the Kingdom of FAQ.


It better. For now, despite Jillian's known unreliability to Don, and complicated involvements with Wanda/Ansom (as known by Charlie), she's been made the "tool" of those sides. But really, they've been using her as a window to throw money out of so far. That piper better show up already.

imgran wrote:Or maybe a joke to rile up the somewhat stuffy Duke Adam Antium and a pointed reminder by Tramennis to his subordinate to stop trying to push him into the box marked "Generic Prince #3."


Nah. Tremmennis' jokes involve dog bowels. Double the amount even.

imgran wrote:What... are you even...? That... makes... no.... aaahggh, brain hurts from reading that. It has no bearing on the quote it responds to, and seems to assume that strategic alliance = genuine affection, an element we've been constantly told (had it ground into our faces even) has nothing to do with the realities of Erfworld.


:lol: Very funny. Now pull yourself together and I will explain it to you.

Every once in a while in some stories, a character shows up and everybody else loves them. Not literally everyone, and not literally love, mind. But you do notice that plenty either pine for said character, or give said character large gifts, or are concerned for that character, or wish they could be more like that said character. When a good chunk of the story is dominated by how everybody else relates to that character, you may have a problem.

I will NOT use a certain term, because by now it is meaningless. Back in the days when it meant something, it was (among other things) the problem that the entire world seemed to revolve around one person.

So to return to what you were responding to. DevilDan contrasted Jillian to a certain class of characters, because she possesses a trait that is, allegedly, not common to that class.

I countered that quite the opposite, that trait is among the traits defining that class. I'd say we were having a relevant conversation in which people actually answered what the other person said.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Black » Sat May 08, 2010 12:55 pm

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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Sat May 08, 2010 1:02 pm

Salvage wrote:Jillian is a great example of a real person...


Actually no. Even if you assume that this is a non-fiction historical account, Jillian is an erf person.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Fug » Sat May 08, 2010 1:38 pm

I think part of the annoyance is that we are reading these a few at a time. Jillian has had a lot of space the last few updates but is now flying off into the sunset with Ansom to live happily ever after.

When the whole book is done, the space devoted to her will be put into perspective. It really took a lot of updates to get to anything, which was a bit annoying when you wait a week for an uneventful plot update, but looking back it reads pretty well and I think the Jillian part will be fine too.

We should expect Parson to reenter now that Ansom is out (and maybe after Ossomer, Sylvia and a few others get promoted and croaked). However if the comic continues to focus on Jillian and her having tea with Ansom then there will be a strong basis for discontent.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby MonteCristo » Sat May 08, 2010 1:42 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:{Jillian displayed a lot of battlefield competence and saved Jetstone}


Lord Kasavin gave a good reply to that, to which I'd add that it should be clear by now that Jillian has been receiving Charlie's assistance. Together with the already known fact of her Transylvitan backing, as well as the fact that the Decrypted Steamroller was not headed her way for a while now, makes her ability to bring troops to assisst Jetstone much less impressive.

Thing about charlie is none of them necessarily understand the level of involvement... Normally, Charlie keeps himself out of the battle; his major contribution is usually providing troops at the right place and right time; clients then use those troops in their own plans... in short, charlie normally keeps himself out of the planning phase. When people hire charlie they are usually working with their own plans just using his troops.

When Haggar showed up and mentioned charlie, Trem seemed like he was crediting Jillian for getting Haggar to fight. It's like he was under the impression that it was HER plan to get haggar to fight and she just hired charlie to carry it out. He doesn't fully understand how personally invested Charlie is in the operation (this is part of why he was so surprised that Jillian did not know of sammy's 'objectives')... same can go for kingsworld; even if he understands that Charlie helped with that, he falls under impression that it may have been Jillian's idea. These plans that jillian takes no credit for, but gains it anyway due to circumstances, is why Trem likes her, not the units that trasilvito helped her build.

Though i think her independent way of thinking is what attracted much of Trem's admiration. Trem is one who must have spent many turns just following the orders of his father and brothers. Most royals including himself were more than willing to just follow slately; they bought his stories about toolism hook, line, and sinker. Jillian however chose to challenge those ideas, and she was willing to actually talk to charlie. She knew she could not trust him, but took the risk because she knew she needed his help... She ended up shading a bit more light on "toolism" and finding a powerful and life saving ally for the RCC2. In a way, saving spacerock stems from her willingness to challenge the beliefs of other royal rulers and follow her own thinking
We also know that units, while constrained in action, are free in thought- as in, they can dislike their commander; affection/admiration is not a given.

Jillian earned his admiration with the way she beat him... again, Duncan like most others does not know of the level of charlie's involvement
Not to mention he might find her a refreshing change from other royals he may have encountered since she has made her only non-royal warlord her chief warlord

Every once in a while in some stories, a character shows up and everybody else loves them. Not literally everyone, and not literally love, mind. But you do notice that plenty either pine for said character, or give said character large gifts, or are concerned for that character, or wish they could be more like that said character. When a good chunk of the story is dominated by how everybody else relates to that character, you may have a problem.

Well there are good reason as to why she is gaining so much of that attention...
some of it has to do with herself (vinnie, formerly ansom, formally wanda, possibly Trem)
Some of it has to do with how others find her to be a useful tool (Don, charlie)
Much of it has to do with misunderstandings and giving her credit where it's not due (Duncan, Trem, most members of the RCC2)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Angband » Sat May 08, 2010 5:54 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:For real though, did Tramennis just come out?


You're thinking of the next Prince that Jetstone will pop, "Fabulis."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Reclaimer » Sat May 08, 2010 6:17 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:I'm not disputing that some people are going to like Stanley, just that it's mostly in spite of how he's been written, and that it's a minority view, essentially.


Agreed, it's a minority view to the point where I'm the only person I've seen espousing it. Honestly, though, I was just hoping to derail the Jillian hate-train. Both sides have given every possible point to support their arguments, and I'd love to see the conversation move on to something else.

Even if Rob cares about all the negative talk about Jillian, he can't exactly write her out of the story at this point, so it just seems a little mean-spirited (and unnecessary) after a while.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby doran » Sat May 08, 2010 6:49 pm

Why don't we just create a page on the wiki and shove all the Jillian arguments there. Then whenever someone mentions old arguments we just point them to it.
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We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby HailGreen28 » Sat May 08, 2010 9:30 pm

Salvage wrote:Jillian is a great example of a real person. I feel she has more depth, emotion , and personality than many of the other characters and I am glad she is seeing alot of "screen" time. She is brash and foolish often but that is who she is the barbarian queen. I enjoyed the apple touch.
I can see some peoples points about the tactics of attacking the GK column but it seems to me to be a typical erfworlder tactic based on being in "battle mode". It seems all of the characters get overly focused on attack and croaking when they are very near a combat especially if this combat is near to your side leader or a town(or both here).On top of this Tremennis has a large column of his own, casters, leadership and they are one hex away from a fair sized unled(mostly) column of mostly infantry. I see it as good excuse to level some of my troops , if the decrypted dust when wanda dies no one gets xp for them. Also Jillian and Charlie and Haggar have all spent time and resource attacking the column now and Tremennis is feeling the itch after seeing his brothers fight while he could do nothing. Emotions are just as guiding as the rules in fact the emotions of erfworlders seems to be IN the rules for the world. Its not a good idea but I can see it being an idea to consider from an erfworld perspective.
I have very few complaints and I am always awaiting the next update. So I say keep it up! Thank you.
Jillian Sue is just like a real person..... at ages 10 - 14. In the *real* world, no way a personality like hers would cope or survive without a lot of help.

Of course, her character works in Erfworld. While as Queen of FAQ, she's gotten tons of help, Jillian Sue seemed to have survived pretty well as a merc before then, even though she was down to her last few Gwiffons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby DevilDan » Sat May 08, 2010 10:07 pm

Thank you very much, Imgran. Your reply adroitly addressed others' comments, a few of which seem to purposefully miss the point. C'est la vie. Oh, and you made some very interesting points, MonteCristo.

As to BlandC's aversion towards a specific term, I will just say that Jill has obvious and serious flaws--even to the point of being something of an antihero. That makes her at the very least an uncommon you-know-what.

The whole world doesn't revolve around her either: she just walked about from a critical turning point in the whole war, simply because she'd accomplished her own fairly selfish goal.

Charlie may be smart enough to fix her screw-ups, but his patience isn't infinite. Sooner or later she'll become more of a liability--or a headache--than an asset. I'm sure Don King is even less likely to feel charitably towards what can only be described as a serious betrayal.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Wender » Sat May 08, 2010 10:19 pm

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'm going to talk about Jillian, because apparently what I see about the way she operates isn't seen by at least many of the people who've posted here. So either I'm right, or I'm crazy. :) This doesn't have anything to do with liking or not liking the character. I go back and forth. But it should be obvious by now that she, Wanda and Parson are the prime movers. Not all at once, and not all in the same way, but they're all clearly bound to Fate.

I don't understand how she's seen as a passive character. Someone even compared her to Bella--assuming that's the character from Twilight, and assuming the accounts I've read about her are accurate, Bella has the personality and the initiative of a sea sponge. But has that ever described Jillian? She has always been brash, confident, and uninterested in doing things on any other than her own terms. She has changed since becoming Queen, but what's more important is how she's pivoted off the changes in the world around her.

In particular, look at her alliances. It's widely assumed, and to an extent true, that Charlie and Don King are using her for their own ends. But Charlie is desperate, and Jillian knows it. Transylvito is in trouble, and Jillian knows that, too. She wouldn't have allied with the Charlie of Book One, because she knows that she'd be screwed regardless, but this Charlie? She's used him perhaps even more than he's used her, and more than she used Ansom to try to get at Stanley in Book One. She is as actively opportunistic as she has ever been, but now that she is a ruler the opportunities present themselves in alliances as well as in battles.

This goes some way toward explaining why her Chief Warlord and Trammenis admire her. But the other reasons also fall out straightforwardly: She uses bold, unorthodox tactics and they work. Not only that, they work with far fewer casualties than conventional tactics would have required. Why wouldn't her Chief Warlord admire her? As for Trammenis, he has just witnessed a Queen who: defies the stultifying rigidity that he likely assumed came with Rulership, and; changed the course of an entire battle while taking only trivial casualties (fighting intelligently, making ample use of targeted attacks and force multipliers), and; did so by manipulating allies that she didn't trust (Trammenis would be comparing her use of Charlie to Jetstone's use of Haggar), and; helped an ally while transparently and openly protecting her own interests, and; made it look easy. Trammenis just got a taste of how he could rule Jetstone, effectively, without becoming like his father or his brothers. Why wouldn't he admire her?

Parson is transforming battle. Wanda is transforming the idea of what constitutes a side. Jillian is transforming royalty. All three are charmed in their own way. And, love them or hate them, all three act boldly and leave a broad wake, which makes them obvious candidates for main characters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby StClair » Sun May 09, 2010 3:41 am

Well said, Wender.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Sun May 09, 2010 3:42 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DevilDan wrote:I quickly decided that I don't care what Rob shows us: He's doing a fine job and I'm not going to sit here and say "I want more of this character" or "I don't want too many strips about this character."

Please.

Either you like the story or you don't. Either you trust Rob or you don't. To appropriate a line from a movie, it's Rob's barbecue and it tastes good.


Only Decrypted think you must enjoy all meats at a barbecue.

Some are overdone. Some are still twitching. Each to their own for the barbecue is big. And I may complain when an ultra-crispy slice lands on my plate.


There had better be a vegan option! :!:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun May 09, 2010 7:02 am

atalex wrote:Trammenis: Even assuming Jack swings that way (and I suspect he might), they're on opposite sides and have had no screen time together.

Given the development of the plot so far, there is no other character for Jack to realistically be in love with.


Parson! :o

Urf wrote:If the Arkentools are meant to rebuild Erfworld, the last Tool should be in the hands of Jillian. Each Tool is going to a class type, and is changing how that class behaves.

Jillian is Royal, and is changing what Royal means in Erfworld.

Wanda = caster
Stanley = piker/warlord
Jillian = royal heir
so if Charlie's not a caster, then what is he?

I don't really believe this, but I'm amusing myself to imagine that he's a barbarian courtier, as if the Marquis somehow survived the film The Emperor and the Assassin:
Stephen Holden wrote:Of all the film's treacherous characters, the most vivid is Changxin (Wang Zhiwen), a wily, androgynous-looking marquis who plays the clown to Ying Zheng and is the queen mother's lover as well as her servant. His glittering false smiles and air of frivolity conceal the heart of a traitor and go-for-broke rebel leader. In the high-stakes imperial politics of ''The Emperor and the Assassin,'' every appearance is a deception.


With respect to Jillian, two points:
1. She owes Jetstone nothing, and Slately less than nothing.
2. Attacking Wanda's airforce was what Charlie wanted, but not necessarily Don's preference. Don wants Wanda croaked, but he'd probably rather see Jetstone take casualties than the Faq strike force he effectively paid for. And Jillian should be more concerned about Faq than about Don, and more concerned about Don than about Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby robak » Sun May 09, 2010 8:27 am

Reclaimer wrote:You say "unlikeable idiot", I say "coolest native Erfworlder". He's a badass under-dog, and his speech to Parson upon being referred to as the "bad guy" is still one of the most insightful things any Erfer's had to say about their lot in life. He's not a genius, he's not an entitled little boop; he's worked his ass off for everything he's got, and his actions just might lead to the breaking of Erfworld, which itself is a total, inhumane mess (arguably making him an anti-hero).

He's low-brow and self-centered, easily distracted by naked Croakamancers (but who isn't?), and he has an unhealthy fascination with destroying all those who oppose him. I love the hell out of the little bastard. I know I'm supposed to hate him, but he's the underdog with big, sharp teeth. Even if he is a giant Tool.

Jillian wishes she was half as bad-ass. Some dislike her because she's very well-liked and plot-centric, but everybody's unanimous in hating Stanley. Pff.

+1 for Stanley-fans. I still think that statement he made there about good and evil will turn out to be the most important quote of book 1 in the end.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Fiendishrabbit » Sun May 09, 2010 8:39 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:so if Charlie's not a caster, then what is he?


My personal pet theory.

Spoiler: show
Charlie is a McGuffin.
He isn't controlling the Arkendish. He IS the Arkendish (self-aware thinkamancy artifact isn't that much of a stretch). Why else would he never use warlords?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby gazes_also » Sun May 09, 2010 1:27 pm

Fiendishrabbit wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:so if Charlie's not a caster, then what is he?


My personal pet theory.

Spoiler: show
Charlie is a McGuffin.
He isn't controlling the Arkendish. He IS the Arkendish (self-aware thinkamancy artifact isn't that much of a stretch). Why else would he never use warlords?


So the real '70s TV reference for Charlie is "Knight Rider" not "Charlie's Angels"? Interesting theory.

On Duncan's loyalty to Jillian.
Comparing it to Ansom's loyalty to Wanda, Duncan's loyalty is increasing while Ansom's is coming into question. When a unit is turned to another side a certain level of Duty and Loyalty are established, the highest level of this would obviously be for a decrypted towards Wanda.
After that, for high level units with a degree of autonomy (warlords) the level of that loyalty will change based on experience. This may include success in battle, while not sacrificing troops unnecessarily, degree to which warlords are trusted to lead their own groups, level of agreement with strategy they are expected to follow and other ways in which the units consider themselves 'valued' by their overlord.
As we've seen, Jillian achieves her objectives with minimal casualties to her troops, Duncan agrees with her tactics, and his tactical match-up analyzer gives objective validation of that rather than being based on blind duty, which gives him confidence in her. Ansom, as a CWL is able to perform high-level tactical and strategic analysis and this leads him to question Wanda's leadership and resent that she doesn't listen to him at all. Loyalty is not a fixed property, Leaders have a huge effect on it, and not just by brainwashing their followers.

So. as has been pointed out before; Duncan actually likes working for Jillian.
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