Book 2 – Page 31

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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby MonteCristo » Sun May 09, 2010 1:58 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:With respect to Jillian, two points:
1. She owes Jetstone nothing, and Slately less than nothing.
2. Attacking Wanda's airforce was what Charlie wanted, but not necessarily Don's preference. Don wants Wanda croaked, but he'd probably rather see Jetstone take casualties than the Faq strike force he effectively paid for. And Jillian should be more concerned about Faq than about Don, and more concerned about Don than about Charlie.

Ya i think its easier for people to not begrudge Jillian for trying to sell out Jetstone when you really look at her situation...
She effectively had loyalties to both sides. On GK she had Ansom, Wanda and Jack people whome she cared about, who cared about her, and has a very strong personal history with. though ofcourse they are working for Stanley whome she hates and despises. On the RCC side she had her financial backers Don and charlie; and also Vinnie who has been a source of genuine personal support. When she went into the battle she had no idea what she was gonna do; she even thought she might fight wanda... it ain't easy fighting a lover... When it comes down to it, no matter what side she took, she was gonna look like a traitor to someone and end up croaking a lot of people

Jetstone... Jillian owes them nothing, Slately and his royals have done nothing but insult and talk down to her. the ONLY jetstone that ever really cared for her was Ansom. Charlie and Don don't really care for her, just what she could do for them if given the proper resources. When it comes down to it, she tried to side with the people that actually seemed to care about HER personally. and ya, Don and Charlie might see it as treason for her to sell out jetstone and turn wanda to her side, but when it comes down to it she isn't dealing them any real physical damage as she is Jetstone, just reputation (less so for charlie due since no one knows of his involvement with her)... there would not really be anything stopping her from working with them in the future if they are willing to let jetstone slide; not to mention that be turning wanda she ended the threat of GK's world domination and she still plans to wipe out GK...

So the treason to Don and Charlie is pretty minimal... the only serious treason is to Slately whom she owes NOTHING too
And again, the opposite of selling out Jetstone would have been to pretty much croak Wanda and the rest; or atleast force them into a position where they were very likely to get croaked by someone else. Could you do that to people you have long personal history with? when Wanda rejected Jillian's offer, she was out of her favorite option and thus ended up needing to betray wanda (leaving her to a high chance of croaking) and instead try her best to atleast save Jack and Ansom... either way she was gonna betray someone, she just tried to side with those who she thought actually cared about HER; it's like choosing between old friends and her Employers, and she tried to go with the friends
Last edited by MonteCristo on Sun May 09, 2010 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun May 09, 2010 2:09 pm

Wender wrote:At the risk of beating a dead horse


If you beat a dead horse for long enough, there'll be candy coming out!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon May 10, 2010 4:16 am

Fiendishrabbit wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:so if Charlie's not a caster, then what is he?


My personal pet theory.

Spoiler: show
Charlie is a McGuffin.
He isn't controlling the Arkendish. He IS the Arkendish (self-aware thinkamancy artifact isn't that much of a stretch). Why else would he never use warlords?


That theory has been around since early in Book 1.

My theory is the opposite: there is no Arkendish. Instead, the inner circle of high ranking archons has devised a clever, dynamic network that allows the pooling of massive amounts of telepathic power without commiting to full links. Charlie is a fiction, a simulation projected by their collective efforts.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon May 10, 2010 5:11 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Wender wrote:At the risk of beating a dead horse


If you beat a dead horse for long enough, there'll be candy coming out!


It's true! No finer candy in the world.

Ah, so that's his name. And how did he come across? Like a stuck-up pillock, amIrite? Between Antium's scorn and Tremmennis' praise, which do you think was the reaction we were supposed to judge as "correct"?


Yeah, Duke Adam Antium if I remember rightly.

Your right, though that is what I was getting at earlier, with the reason for disliking her. There would certainly be good reasons for a character not to like Jillian or strongly disagreeing with her methods (Caesar probably has some good points), but Slately and Antium come from an already established position of dislike based on their royal biases.

Antium is oh so upset that Jillian went away with nary a fare-well, to say nothing of her appalling eating habits. This of course is made to be a silly complaint.


I suspect it is is more the total package deal that is Jillian - other then those things she also simultaneously insulted the King while advising the Prince to never become like him. Whether or not Jillian has a point it would still rankle a loyal soldier like Antium (well, I assume he is a loyal soldier and royalist).

Lord Kasavin gave a good reply to that, to which I'd add that it should be clear by now that Jillian has been receiving Charlie's assistance. Together with the already known fact of her Transylvitan backing, as well as the fact that the Decrypted Steamroller was not headed her way for a while now, makes her ability to bring troops to assisst Jetstone much less impressive.


Especially as troops weren't really what Jetstone needed, a little Charlescomm magic was.

It better. For now, despite Jillian's known unreliability to Don, and complicated involvements with Wanda/Ansom (as known by Charlie), she's been made the "tool" of those sides. But really, they've been using her as a window to throw money out of so far. That piper better show up already.


Thinking about it, Charlie has a checkered history with Jillian. Book one Ansom hires some Archons to save/assist her, only one of them really went beyond the call of duty to help her. Then he kind of screwed her and the RCCI over when they went to ambush Stanley (which could have led to her death). Then he only contacted her when Wanda's decrypted road show got rolling and she was a quenn and only supplied her with a real prize (Vanna) after Bea died. Then he helps get her to the battle undetected, casts the spell and tries to have Ansom dusted.

Of course it depends on how much Charlie knows about the Wanda/Ansom/Jillian situation. His plan, and backing of Jillian, actually did pay off. Just not as much as he/she/it seemed to have been suspecting because Jillian has her own objectives. And of course he might be thinking now he'll have a crack at a decrypted, so it might be worth his trouble to humor her a while longer.

Dear God please no. I was planning to read those books soon!


Don't worry, I don't think Jillian has much in common with the named character (good books by the way, what is it about the Swedes and writing good, gritty crime fiction?).

Kozbot wrote:Vinnie calling Jillian out once she gets back to Faq, especially after Wanda's probable survival and how that would please Jillian would be great. That would really reverse the "everyone thinks she's awesome" vibe that's going on and Vinnie knows her well enough to really get some good cutting remarks without being an unreasonable jerk about it.


Yep, and we already know Vinnie isn't the doormat type (since they have argued before) so it seems quite possible he'd call Jillian on something like this, and it would have added meaning since he cares for her.

MonteCristo wrote:No, based on everything that has been said, Jetstone has more than enough anti-air troops to wipe out the dwagons
The Decryption however, may even the fight out


Or make it more likely when all the spells have been cast and arrows fired at least one dwagon and rider will still be alive and capable of fleeing. Maybe a few more.

MKBG wrote:It's the old 'voluntary feedback' problem. The only one's who bother to give feedback are the ones that are really unhappy with the situation, thus skewing the results.


I like Jillian. :D

Menas wrote:Jillian's a loose cannon.


The Chief'll have her badge if she keeps it up. :D

Lord Kasavin wrote:Bella... Bella... nope, I've got nothing. Wait, was she the female lead in Disney's Beauty and the Beast? Oh, I thought she was a very kind and compassionate girl in that movie. Not like Jillian at all.


I though it was Bella from Supernatural - bad past (we find out in the end), but very selfish, self-centered, had a tendency to turn Sam and Dean into idiots and take advantage of them... I didn't have any real dislike her (I liked the rabbit foot episode and thought
Spoiler: show
her death was moving enough
, but I understand why a lot of people did.

Wender wrote:In particular, look at her alliances. It's widely assumed, and to an extent true, that Charlie and Don King are using her for their own ends. But Charlie is desperate, and Jillian knows it. Transylvito is in trouble, and Jillian knows that, too.


Well I think that to - are Charlie and Don supporting Jillian because "everyone likes her"? No, they are trying to use her. They have things they want her to do, need her to do. Of course I suspect they are just starting to find out that Jillian doesn't really do the puppet thing - she'll play along as long as their goals are the same as hers. When they clash her goals take priority, regardless of how much support other have given her.

The question is, is how much will they put up with?
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby DevilDan » Mon May 10, 2010 9:38 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:
DevilDan wrote:I quickly decided that I don't care what Rob shows us: He's doing a fine job and I'm not going to sit here and say "I want more of this character" or "I don't want too many strips about this character."

Please.

Either you like the story or you don't. Either you trust Rob or you don't. To appropriate a line from a movie, it's Rob's barbecue and it tastes good.

...
DevilDan wrote:When I say I trust Rob, I mean that he's too canny to let her become a Mary Sue anyway. And everyone's current accusations will be so much egg, crow, and humble pie. Oh, look, I just happen to have a for ready. How fortunate.


I'm not really sure why you have apparently felt the need to become combative about this. There is a healthy contingent of readers who apparently either don't care for Jillian, or at least for the way she has been fawned over (my take) so far in Book Two. And that's about it. I love this story and support it with my money, time and interest. And one of the benefits (?) of the serial format is the ability to provide real-time reactions and feedback. I would think that is a great benefit to an author, who can use those reactions and feedback as a barometer to see if he's accomplishing within his readers what he's intending with his prose. And given the fan-centric nature of these boards (which is only natural, given that we all like the story, or at least have sufficient interest in it to actually post here), the fact that a healthy contingent apparently either don't care for Jillian, or at least for the way she has been fawned over so far in Book Two, is somewhat telling, IMO.


I must have communicated poorly. My point wasn't "Don't complain," my point was "I don't think your complaints will be borne out: Given Rob's apparent chops, he's not going to make such an elemental mistake."

And we're already seeing that the panicking over Tramennis's alleged swooning over Jill was premature, alarmist. Criticism is fine, I think. I just don't see that the sky is falling. And I don't think Don King is such a "fan" of Jill at the moment either. And he will not be pleased if Wanda makes it out of Spacerock.

As for Jill's recent actions in another arena: I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that she advised Tramennis to take on the GK ground column with the express purpose of increasing Wanda's odds.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon May 10, 2010 12:40 pm

DevilDan wrote:I must have communicated poorly. My point wasn't "Don't complain," my point was "I don't think your complaints will be borne out: Given Rob's apparent chops, he's not going to make such an elemental mistake."
And we're already seeing that the panicking over Tramennis's alleged swooning over Jill was premature, alarmist. Criticism is fine, I think. I just don't see that the sky is falling. And I don't think Don King is such a "fan" of Jill at the moment either. And he will not be pleased if Wanda makes it out of Spacerock.
As for Jill's recent actions in another arena: I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that she advised Tramennis to take on the GK ground column with the express purpose of increasing Wanda's odds.


OK, thanks. I appreciate this response a lot more than your earlier one. Just so you know, none of my responses are ever intended as criticism a la "this story SUXXOR" or anything like that. It's intended as real-time feedback. I think that's one of the benefits and weaknesses of a serial format, actually. Benefits, I will go into further below. Weaknesses, in that it can be frustrating as a reader to see things develop slowly as things which are planned out ahead of time develop gradually. Case in point that I always cite, I HATED the Ansom one-upsmanship in Book One, but thought it was GENIUS in the sense of Parson playing against a world that was essentially cheating him (I had a long exposition about this in one of the past reaction threads).

DevilDan wrote:Oh, and I shudder at the suggestion that Rob actually change the story in a significant manner to satisfy readers. It seems like the shortest path to sinking this comic.


I agree to the extent that I'm not expecting Rob to change his plot or story based on real-time feedback. (That said, Charles Dickens himself, who often wrote in the serial format, changed his stories in response to real-time feedback quite often, including the endings to Great Expectations and The Old Curiosity Shop, and he is nevertheless one of the literary giants of our language.) What is easy to envision, however, is the ability to see, "Oh, I really hit it with that nuance." Or, "Oh, I really missed the mark on what I was going for versus what was taken from it." Things like characterization, humor, direction of a theme or subplot, etc. In cases like that, sometimes you can make adjustments on the fly, to the betterment of the prose and overall story. (And sometimes, you just shrug and move on, like a missed joke.)

DevilDan wrote:By the by, I'm no particular fan of Jill. Past her chafing at her duties, I find both Wanda, Jack, and--even now--Ansom more interesting and, yes, compelling characters.


I agree on all counts. And I also agree with another poster who said earlier, I really want to see more about PARSON. But I trust it will happen soon enough.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon May 10, 2010 1:21 pm

DevilDan wrote:And we're already seeing that the panicking over Tramennis's alleged swooning over Jill was premature, alarmist.


And thank God, I mean the Titans, for that.

But yeah, real-time "feedback"*. Stuff happens, we react. If I hate that some character seems to hijack the story, I will speak that thought.

Maybe you'd prefer that to be more like "boy I sure don't like how X seems to be hijacking the story right now". Meh. Shortcuts.

*: feedback in the sense that we don't passively sit and do nothing while Erfworld is poured upon us. Whether the feedback loop is actually closed, I don't know and I kinda hope it isn't.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 31

Postby CelebrenIthil » Mon May 10, 2010 11:29 pm

effataigus wrote:
Kozbot wrote:I first started disliking Jillian when it was revealed Jack loved her, that to me crossed the line from having a female character in a classic love triangle, which I thought was incredibly well done, to giving Jillian the apparent special ability "Everyone likes/loves me" which may very well be one of her bonuses the way everyone reacts to her.


Reading this made me realize that that was also the moment that I started looking for reasons to dislike her. Nevermind the numbers of her crushes, Jack is one of my favorite characters and he can do so much better. Can you imagine their dinnertime conversations?

Jillian: "Salt."
Jack: *passes salt* "Does the food need salt, does the salt need food, or do the hands just need work while the jaw catches up?"
Jillian: *nom nom nom nom nom grunt*
Jack: "I should have known, for your eyes are like the seas, and the seas ask not why they seek salt."
Jillian: "...honey, just shut up."
Jack: :oops:

At least he seems to recognize this himself: "Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise."


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