Book 2 – Page 31

[Fiendishrabbit]

Really I'd like Jillian a lot more as a character if some likable character said "I don't like you, I think you're a self absorbed idiot and I shall be waiting for your selfishness or stupidity to screw me over". It doesn't have to become the major viewpoint of her but having just one likable named character tell Jillian that she sucks would do a lot to make her a more well rounded character.

I'd guess Jaclyn didn't like Jillian a whole lot. And I'd say it was pretty obvious Sir Webinar didn't like her at all. Where are they now? They're croaked. That's where.

I'm fairly sure Sylvia wasn't too much of a Jillian fan either (at least from what you could see in her expressions). She's still around. Of course she's a decrypted Wanda-puppet now (which isn't that different from before, except then she was a non-croaked Unaroyal puppet).

[StClair]

Oh honey, you're a queen now.

[Kozbot]

I'd guess Jaclyn didn't like Jillian a whole lot. And I'd say it was pretty obvious Sir Webinar didn't like her at all. Where are they now? They're croaked. That's where.

That's true, I'd forgotten about Webinar, he was a great example of a random fairly cool character that didn't ever take a liking to Jillian, and really another scene like the one where Webinar called her out would probably move Jillian back to tolerable for me.

[the_tick_rules]

Wanda's eating talk was a bit unclear.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Finally, as a counter argument to Jillian's viewpoint always being right, I'd like to remind everyone of this viewpoint of her 'enemy' Slately.

But that's the point. Slately is the kind of character that might berate Steven Seagall or 50Cent, meaning the character is an unlikable* pretentious git self-inflated with his own sense of authority.

*: there was plenty of sympathy for Slately after that update, true. Right now though, general reaction to him as a character is exactly what I described above: an egotistical traditionalist. Why, this very thread contains posts that paint him so.

LOL@ the anti-Jillian hysteria. Just because she hasn't paid the piper yet doesn't mean she isn't going to guys.

I don't care that much for her either, but she's a main character getting main character screentime, if that's not your cup of tea there's plenty of other webcomics.

Well I never! How rude! *nervously flutters Jill R Us fan while searching for the ammonia salts*

I'm kind of puzzled about which characters you do like if you don't like Jillian.

...

I could just rest my case now. So, Jillian IS so central to Erfworld that not liking her implies not liking Erfworld? Or that she is obviously meant to be the most sympathetic character around, so finding fault with her implies all the other people around her will be even more hated?

Well, for now, fortunately, the answers to both questions are negative. Erfworld is sufficiently big, and sufficiently varied, to make for a good story with interesting characters, that we all love to follow. But the recent updates have been about Jillian, so that's what we're discussing. And anybody is well within their rights to express discontent, and annoyance at other people's (also freely expressed btw) flippant replies.

There is no rule on this forum that you have to be uniformly praising; it would be weird if it were. But there isn't and I'm not.

Charlie is "supporting" her. {...}

Don's flat out holding her kingdom as a vassal, and I expect him to take the heir to FAQ as a hostage. Charlie may have just intentionally attempted to croak one of her loved ones. (Or may have mistook Jillian's unclear directions.) {...}

Don sees Jillian as someone to use. Charlie either sees Jillian as the same or someone who would make a convient ally.

(There's more to the post, but imo that's the gist of the argument)

"They're using her" maybe, but so far they've given her plenty of support. Jillian would not be where she is were it not for Transylvito and Charlescomm sinking significant resources into propping up her kingdom. So far it's been (mostly) give-give-give for both Tv and Cc, and that doesn't sit well with a simple using-her explanation. Don admiratively watching Jillian's parley from Bat whoever for instance (while Caesar was being presented as a petulant brat afraid of losing the inheritance, since we're also tallying up who Said Bad Stuff About She Who Is Erfworld).

I get that Jillian is a Royal, and as such a convenient ally for Charlie and a convenient puppet for Don (as opposed to giving Faq to non-Royal Caesar), but it's all rather too convenient if you ask me.

We don't know a lot about what Charlescomm is thinking (apart from its resolve to always steadfastly pick up the pieces after Jillian botches a plan, which makes Charlescomm into Jillian's butler). But we seem to have seen Don's take, and it's not a Byzantine web of intrigue and mistrust. Quite the opposite.


I'm sure, and I hope, surprises are around the corner.

[elmagnifico]

So, I'm looking at this update again, laughing at Jillian's apple antics, and looking for some nice characters to focus on, when who do I find but Sammy's second-in-command, who shall henceforth be known as Captain Dreads. By the looks of it, Jillian and Faq should watch their collective backs, because those looks were aimed to kill, and who knows what archery shenanigans might come about between Spacerock and the Faq mountains.

[BLANDCorporatio]

You do have to be careful about Poe's law, though

So, I'm looking at this update again, laughing at Jillian's apple antics

Wait a minute ... that's brilliant, I didn't think of it.

Garth Marenghi's Darkplace; House M.D.- both, shows about jerks who everyone (in-universe) either loves or needs. Both rather good shows- why do they work?

GMDP is an obvious parody, and House M.D. never takes its title character as a serious model (House is rather tolerated than liked, or some new woman tries her best to repair him etc; plus, he's genuinely funny and way-over-the-top, also well-acted by Hugh Laurie).

So why would Jillian be ostentatiously nomming an apple for no reason just like that? Is this also an over the top antic meant to establish her as the funny churl?

Stuff to ponder while awaiting developments. (That will hopefully not include Jillian, for the love of the Titans, please!)

I can see it now-

Jillian M.D.- she knows which fork to use for your eye-surgery

or, how about

Jillian M.D.- an apple a day won't keep her away.

[Altima]

Units with high mental stats are more likely to be promoted. Generally because they don't die on the way doing something incredibly stupid.
If cities have some sort of control over what kind of stats a popped unit has it's likely that they focus on Brawn rather than Brains for Stabbers while something like a Warlord (or something you think might become a warlord) generally gets a more generous amount of points devoted towards brains.
May I present Evidence number 1 through 5 of what happens to your warlords if you don't follow the "promote the dude with the best mental stats" line of thought.
Book 1, Page 27

Actually, picking the 'most handsome' to promote to Warlord might not actually be a bad idea. After all, Signamancy being what it is...

[Fiendishrabbit]

Actually, picking the 'most handsome' to promote to Warlord might not actually be a bad idea. After all, Signamancy being what it is...

I on the other hand would pick a chief warlord that's still handsome 3 turns after being appointed chief warlord.
The choice between a very charismatic DEAD warlord and a moderately charismatic live one is fairly simple.

[DoctorJest]

Actually, picking the 'most handsome' to promote to Warlord might not actually be a bad idea. After all, Signamancy being what it is...

Lord Stanley is that you?

...

Yes, it worked so well for Stanley when he was doing it prior to the opening to Book 1.
So well that Wanda had to refuse a direct order because she believed continuing to do so would lead to Stanley's destruction.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Yay, a bit more Duncan/Jillian/Megalogwiffs in action and more grumpy Ansom. And now on to Trem and his battle against the GK forces. I really like everything about this page a great deal.

And I must say - I rather feel like an apple now.

Hmmm, interesting - so Trem isn't especially interested in the throne, and this is apparently common enough knowledge. Plus Jillian might go some way to helping clear Charlie's name a little. Finally the royals start to learn he really isn't on the toolists side. And I guess Jillian is correct - Wanda isn't really a toolist, at least not like Stanley or what the royals think Toolists are about.

Loved Trem's joke there at the end as well. Hehe

Actually, picking the 'most handsome' to promote to Warlord might not actually be a bad idea. After all, Signamancy being what it is...

I guess it depends on how genre savvy someone was - you'd need to make sure you pick handsome as a sign of superior character and not handsome as a sign vapidity.

So, I'm looking at this update again, laughing at Jillian's apple antics, and looking for some nice characters to focus on, when who do I find but Sammy's second-in-command, who shall henceforth be known as Captain Dreads. By the looks of it, Jillian and Faq should watch their collective backs, because those looks were aimed to kill, and who knows what archery shenanigans might come about between Spacerock and the Faq mountains.

I got that too, though I wondered if it was directed at Jillian or at the talk of Charlie. If it is at Jillian I don't think she has to worry - no way the Haggar column is chasing her down, and I doubt Haggar has much in the right position to worry her on the way home.

"They're using her" maybe, but so far they've given her plenty of support. Jillian would not be where she is were it not for Transylvito and Charlescomm sinking significant resources into propping up her kingdom. So far it's been (mostly) give-give-give for both Tv and Cc, and that doesn't sit well with a simple using-her explanation. Don admiratively watching Jillian's parley from Bat whoever for instance (while Caesar was being presented as a petulant brat afraid of losing the inheritance, since we're also tallying up who Said Bad Stuff About She Who Is Erfworld).

Actually I think it does fit for using her. She wasn't much good to either of them before, now both have had to make significant investments in Jillian, all that support, yes, for pay offs that are currently unknown. Big investment, potentially big reward or loss. Charlie has committed a lot, sure, but he needed to in order to get Jillian into position to do something useful against GK while the rest of the RCCII was heading to its doom.

Don is a whole other kettle of fish. It looked like the majority of Charlie's assistance was aimed at taking advantage of this battle (and it didn't fully work out, because Jillian isn't... um, reliable), where as Don? I don't know what Don's long term plan is, but I doubt he is just helping Jillian because she's such a great gal. He, like Charlie, must have a reason for wanting her to be stronger, even if that means alienating Caesar and the economic strains it has placed on TV.

I'm sure, and I hope, surprises are around the corner.

Agreed.

That's true, I'd forgotten about Webinar, he was a great example of a random fairly cool character that didn't ever take a liking to Jillian, and really another scene like the one where Webinar called her out would probably move Jillian back to tolerable for me.

Well, Duke Antium doesn't seem to like her, Slately doesn't, looks like Sammy's second might not, Casear certainly doesn't... I guess it depends on why they don't like her. Good reason or bad?

I like her quite a bit, though there are characters I like more (of course).

I'd guess Jaclyn didn't like Jillian a whole lot.

Why? Didn't she keep trying to help Jillian, if thought it involved bending Charlie's rules somewhat? She may have disliked her for getting her killed (a bit like Sammy), but before that I didn't get the impression she didn't like Jillian a lot (though it has been a while since I read it).

Stanley on the other hand. He's a bad ass team leader, he has his brilliant occasions (The thinkamancer link resulting in Eyebooks and whatnots). Not Faction Leader material though. For one thing the whole Royal Natural thinkamancy isn't working for him and he doesn't have it naturally.

Indeed, that does fit. He rose so far through the ranks because he impressed Saline.

[build6]

Wanda's eating talk was a bit unclear.

you mean Jillian talking about wanda while eating?

heh, anyways, I'm liking how Duncan's so in-sync with his Queen that he knew what she was saying (instead of going "wha?")

[build6]

I think somebody ought to sit young Prince Tramennis down and explain to him as gently as possible that boys can't be queens. Not even a little bit.

Well at least as long as his mother is still alive. Until then he's just a princess.

if this were /. I'd mod you up

[Dancing Cthulhu]

He's certainly making sure all of the main characters like her!

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I mean half the main characters are GK-bbers, and only Wanda and Jack really know Jillian or like her. Then there is Charlie and Don (who I doubt are interested in how she is doing because they like her), Ansom (hard to say) and Jetstone (Trem seems to have respect, Slately... doesn't).

Vinnie likes her, so does Duncan (though he could be a special case Chief Warlord), Caesar doesn't and Janis doesn't know her. Then there are more secondary characters - Antium doesn't look like he does, Oss wouldn't have had a problem killing her, Vanna? etc

Well now thats a revelation for the RCC2 to digest, that Charley is up for hire and wants to DESTROY Gobwin Knob. Verry interesting, I wonder if they'll believe it, or if Faq will come under suspision of being a Royal side that's capitulated to Toolism. I know what side Stately (and probably Ceaser) will take on that. The real quastion is, what about Don?

I don't actually think Caesar would be bothered - he isn't taken with all this Royal vs Toolist business or expressed any concerns about toolism in general. He cares about TV and that seems to be it - I imagine if he had the shmuckers and the need he'd have no problem hiring Charlie.

I'd like to think Don wouldn't either - that he is more practical and would do it if it needed to be done, even if it was on the sly while keeping up appearances with Slately.

[quote"askafroa"]He simply strikes me as being similar to Jillian, but to a lesser extreme (and without the anger that seems rooted in her character even before her side ended.)[/quote]

I think while they might have a strong sense of self/rebelliousness/free spiritedness/whatever there appraches to life are a lot different. And he probably sees enough in her to respect - after all she made a pretty big difference at the battle and isn't bothered by his father/the whole royalty thing.

He's been waffling between smartass and drooling idiot since his introduction. There are times he seems like a sarcastic genius and other times he seems like a petulant five year old.

I'm not really seeing "drooling idiot" anywhere.

Reading this, I could actually feel myself groan and think to myself, "Yeah, everyone in Erfworld just loves their little Jillian."

Well, on the same page Duke Antium isn't liking her (plus she is letting out Charlie wronged her in her view).

Plus Trem isn't saying her loves her, it is more that he has been impressed by what she has done and probably amused by her other quirks. And why not? She did appear to save their bacon (while due credit to Charlie). Or more correctly give them a better chance to save their own bacon.

Yeah, I really don't get this "everyone in Erfworld loves Jillian" thing.

Indeed - there are a lot of characters and the majority aren't in love with her or probably have her best interests in heart (especially if they come before there own.) A couple do actively dislike her or many have no real knowledge of her. Still, she is also the only character with multiple love interests in a world with very, very few such pairings.

And come on. Tremmennis is a drooling fanboy in that last panel if ever there was such a thing, and all in the service of a queen joke.

Because as the women who was pivotal in giving them a second chance flies off into the sunset he bids he farewell with a irreverent joke that also expresses respect/maybe some admiration?

[7thSign]

I think somebody ought to sit young Prince Tramennis down and explain to him as gently as possible that boys can't be queens. Not even a little bit.

Spoiler: show

Um, except for a very specialised definition of 'queen' which I doubt is used in Erfworld.

Yes, that was the joke.

Nothing wrong with Prince who wants to express/fully realize his Fabulous-side.

I know I do, every chance I get.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Cool, but how do you know this- that Tremmennis would croak Jillian in a second? Or that either of Don or Charlie would? All we have so far as actual evidence in the text is these characters' support/approval for/of Jillian.

Well I guess Trem is still a Jetstone unit and bound to Slately's orders. I'm doubt this one encounter with her would be sufficient to make him betray Jetstone if push came to stab. He might still feel sad about it though.

I would be shocked (SHOCKED!) and surprised if Charlie didn't kill (or try to kill) Jillian the moment it served his interests or if she got in the way. I mean this is Charlie we are talking about. Has anything occurred in his communications with Jillian so far that suggest he would be willing to put her ahead of his life/objectives/etc? Don though... maybe, he has already shown he is willing to alienate important subjects for whatever he wants to achieve with Jillian. Hopefully it is for a good reason.

Duncan has in fact expressed feelings about Jillian that are beyond mere Duty compulsion in the Text logs. Maggie has Duty to Stanley but I doubt she regards him the same way Duncan sees Jillian.

Well Stanley is... Stanley. In the short time Duncan has known Jillian he was subject to an impressive capture, a magic enhanced turn, and riding with her, a competent, fellow warrior and leader in largely successful actions.

So everyone knows Jillian, because she gets around enough and is high-placed enough. Fair. But why do so many like her? And this multitude btw includes Charlie and Don, they like her enough to trust her with popping an heir (Don) and free-of-charge support (Charlie, in a boldly different move from his/her/its/their MO).

Eh, it seems a bit Belkar-ish, that if a character isn't cursing Jillian's name (where we can see it) they must like her. I mean I can easily imagine alliances of necessity/convenience without one side having to "like" the other. Or civil acquaintances etc. All it requires is both sides see it would be better if they work together.

In the case of Charlie Jillian has just said he wants to crush GK - that seems to justify why he would supply Jillian with such resources, not because he said "well I like you, so here, have a caster and some natural allies". And of course it is worth pointing out Charlie only came to Jillian after she was queen and a member of the RCCII and the RCCII stopped taking his calls, so there isn't really a "why Jillian?" with him - she was his best option. It is a fair question with Don though, but until we know the answer I'm not bothered by it.

Heh, maybe we'll find out Don is actually completely crazy. Sure, in the beginning it was just about creating a proxy kingdom, but then after Bea died he suddenly noticed Jillian bore an uncanny resemblance to her...

I. The Erfworld Fans of Jillian Club:

1. Wanda
2. Jack
3. Vinnie
4. Duncan
5. Tremmennis
6. Don
7. Charlie
8. Vanna
9-6173901633. Everybody else

I don't think we have enough evidence for Vanna (other then she isn't actively disliking Jillian), Duncan I think is more complex and I don't think we have sufficient evidence for Charlie either.

I. The Erfworld NotFan Club of Jillian

1. Caesar
2. Slately

And some more minor characters.

Indeed, is there love in Erfworld that doesn't involve Jillian? Maggie and Sizemore have a good "rapport." Unaroyal's queen seems keen on Don. Vurp "trusts" Parson. Maggie might have a crush on Parson... but I can't think of any romantic love connections that don't connect to Jillian.

Caesar and Bunny seem to have something special, and Archons and decrypted feel love for their creators (how much stock you put in that varies). Webinar and Dora also looked to be close. Plus the other sorts of love (beyond the romantic kind) - even without the whole giving birth aspect it appears "parents" can feel love for their "kids" in Erfworld. Bea loved Cruz etc.

We know this for a fact, although both for in-game mechanics reasons. Duncan is slavishly loyal at least partially because he has been mindraped to be so. Maggie is less loyal to Stanley at least partially because he demoted a popular Chief Warlord.

Plus everything he did before that. I can only assume leaving you to die would have to effect loyalty some.

Don is going to be ticked. Big-time. Of course, he won't want to admit that Ceaser was 100% correct. His reaction will be very interesting.

I suspect it will involve him steepling his fingers, nodding sagely and saying something like "good, it is all going according to plan", even if he happens to be thinking "Booping... boopity... booping... boop"

I hope not, that would be silly. Trem isn't an idiot, he shouldn't be putting himself in a position to lose a caster in a routine mop-up operation. He knows the composition of the enemy forces both in the city and in front of the bridge, he's probably a better Warlord than Ford. He should know better than to attack there if there's a chance he'll lose something that valuable. As I said, I think the worst that happens is that he loses some archery and perhaps one Warlord.

Agreed 100%.

Really I'd like Jillian a lot more as a character if some likable character said "I don't like you, I think you're a self absorbed idiot and I shall be waiting for your selfishness or stupidity to screw me over". It doesn't have to become the major viewpoint of her but having just one likable named character tell Jillian that she sucks would do a lot to make her a more well rounded character.

I already like Jillian, but it is never a bad idea to stop a character getting to big for their boots (unless that is how it is meant to be), so not a bad point, although timing is important for such things, otherwise it looks forced. I guess this page would have be a chance for Trem to say it, but he doesn't really know Jillian or her track record and could only have chided her for leaving like that. Charlie could I guess, but that isn't his style. Ansom well could, I look forward to seeing some turner/turnee conversations.

The person I could best see something like that coming from and have the right impact would be Vinnie. He knows about loyalty and duty (the concepts, not the stats) - he could question Jillian risking so much for Ansom and leaving the battle like that.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

As a barbarian, Jillian is impulsive and unpredictable, free to roam and love anyone and do whatever catches her whim. Remember that thinkagram she sent Ansom? It was an important part of the story, that showed us readers Jillian's motivations; that she loved Ansom and hated Stanley, and how important it was for her character to be free.

The true extent of her barbarian nature did not become apparent until these last few updates, though, when we see how little she cares about other people, their rules, and their morality. It was a nice piece of work, Rob, that comic.

Good point.

Tramennis's "enthusiasm" is more, I would wager, a product of his temperament more than a sign of any particular affection for Jillian. What he said about Jillian is the result of, among other things, his habit of making jokes, his unconventional nature, his "put a smile on everything" personality, and because it shocks his underling. I'll buy some admiration, but admiration tempered by the fact that he has serious reasons to mistrust her, she just ditched him and left Spacerock in danger, she seems to act irrationally or inexplicably.

Duncan has just been turned. I'd be willing to bet that his appreciation of Jillian is about as high as it's ever going to be. Plus, she seems like a capable leader, unlike the incompetent, irrational, and irascible Stanley.

Indeed, I don't see it as a sign Trem has gone all head over heels with affection for Jillian either, and I think what of it is there is possibly more respect then admiration. It seems to me to be a very Trem-ish thing to do in such a situation. Plus I definitly think the context is important on the question of royalty and how to act.

I also think you might have something with the mistrust aspect - and it would be a nice book end to the beginning of the page that also discussed trust.

so -

(a) she doesn't want Jetstone to win (particularly since only crap comes out of its king's mouth)
(b) she also gives advice that would if followed would not result in an emphatic jetstone victory?

Or she wants Jetstone to win (she still hates Stanley after all) but wants Wanda to live as well. I guess she can see it is possible for both to happen.

Also Duncan has his magical match up thing-a-ma-bob. I wonder if it can match up forces as well as individual fights? Maybe Jillain asked him to test the two and she saw Wanda would have a slightly better chance of surviving if Trem went after the column first. Of course that is speculation and I am probably giving it power to much like Parson's bracer.

Garth Marenghi's Darkplace; House M.D.- both, shows about jerks who everyone (in-universe) either loves or needs. Both rather good shows- why do they work?

Big thumbs up for both mentioning GMD and that fact it is good.

Oh, and for a good post in general as well.

Nothing wrong with Prince who wants to express/fully realize his Fabulous-side.

Truly true.

[Pyrates]

So how is everybody sure that Trem is going to follow any of Jillian's advices? "Attack formations" could easily be followed by "And now all for the Croakie!" as fas as I see it...

[Azukar]

Is there any reason Jillian's eating an apple in this strip? Some kind of Rocky Horror symbolism, or just for teh lulz?

[joosy]

Is there any reason Jillian's eating an apple in this strip? Some kind of Rocky Horror symbolism, or just for teh lulz?

Pears are out of season and watermelon proved too unwieldy.