Book 2 – Text Updates 023

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby multilis » Tue May 11, 2010 6:30 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Just a random thought:
I'm surprised how determined and limited the Jetstone warlords are in their choice of tactics. They see a infantry battle and want to fight it. All three princes seem to be quite similar in their taste. Old Ossomer and Ansom extensively fought with this strategy. But repopped Ansom deviated from it and developed a pretty smart bluff. Could it be that decrypting does more than simply change loyalty? Maybe it also breaks other limitations and settings, like royal conceit or a sides preference for certain tactics. Ansom was pretty creative before as seen in book 1, but he only chose new tactics when it was necessary. Now he implemented something new from the beginning, even if he could have gone for the classic infantry strategy.

We've seen what TV can do with bats, likely Jetstone can do much more in similar way with infantry.

Tram has what seems to be good strategy of using heavies to aim for 0 losses, biggest risk I see is Hagar. If Hagar have legally binding non aggression deal with Charlie now and enough left including leadership they could promote a new chief warlord and immediately backstab to first capture casters, then slaughter unlead stacks. Done well this would also be revenge on Charlie as could drag his reputation into mud.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue May 11, 2010 6:47 pm

multilis wrote:Tram has what seems to be good strategy of using heavies to aim for 0 losses, biggest risk I see is Hagar. If Hagar have legally binding non aggression deal with Charlie now and enough left including leadership they could promote a new chief warlord and immediately backstab to first capture casters, then slaughter unlead stacks. Done well this would also be revenge on Charlie as could drag his reputation into mud.


Ooh, I think you might be on to something. We've already seen (in the Western Giants text update) that people can break alliance during a fight. I can't imagine Haggar's ruler is thrilled about the death of his son!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Reclaimer » Tue May 11, 2010 7:25 pm

So, going by foreshadowing (The entire Ford update), GK's ground force is going to take something valuable from Jetstone during the assault. Tram left every valuable piece behind, except himself. Therefore, traditionally, he's going to get hurt, or croaked. We know he's a born leader ('cause he's royalty, and he likes to fight), but he's clearly the runt of the litter, and we've never actually seen him fight; he could just plain suck. As he is still alive, we know that he's never fought Decrypted before, unless you count his stack getting attacked while he himself was helpless in a puddle of bubblegum. He thinks this is going to be a clean sweep.

What this all boils down to is whether or not Ford can surprise him with his tactics. If Stanley promoted him to CW, that... would be metal. Maggie and Parson could make it happen if they saw what was going down and thought it would have a ghost of a chance of working, and GK is the richest Side on Erfworld right now, so any potential costs for throwing around titles would be a mere pittance to them. Ansom's out of the game anyways for now, so it's not like he needs the title, and Ossomer's probably going to be a pincushion no matter what (since Wanda doesn't really like him anyways, and she can't re-Decrypt him).

Of course, sometimes, foreshadowing is just another form of red herring.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby DevilDan » Tue May 11, 2010 7:58 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:It could turn bad if they lose their warlords and of course there is always a risk for Trem's well-being, but it looks like what I'd myself do in a game before engaging a very important target- grinding for XP on easier targets.


Except for the warlords, though, XP gained wouldn't be directly or immediately helpful in fighting Wanda. It might be a worthwhile bet, but it's still an action that doesn't directly deal with the very real hanging over Spacerock like a sword of Damocles.

Reclaimer wrote:So, going by foreshadowing (The entire Ford update), GK's ground force is going to take something valuable from Jetstone during the assault. Tram left every valuable piece behind, except himself. Therefore, traditionally, he's going to get hurt, or croaked. We know he's a born leader ('cause he's royalty, and he likes to fight), but he's clearly the runt of the litter, and we've never actually seen him fight; he could just plain suck.


His instincts were better than Ossomer's, and he's been around a long time. We've seen numerous mentions of his experience in battle. I'm willing to bet he can hold his own.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby multilis » Tue May 11, 2010 8:15 pm

Reclaimer wrote:If Stanley promoted him to CW, that... would be metal.

That has a bit of foreshadowing... open question of who to promote as CW, and comment on Jetstone king taking his time on going after Wanda.

Reasonably safe tactic as Ford is dead anyways, and can be disbanded to promote a new CW if Jetstone won't finish him before going after Wanda.

Janice suggested everything going chaotic, so even possible this happens *and* Hagar still pulls something, and a coup at TV. (TV coup could be triggered over Bunny suprise - love is a battlefield). But also possible chaotic only applied to GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Reclaimer » Tue May 11, 2010 9:00 pm

DevilDan wrote:His instincts were better than Ossomer's, and he's been around a long time. We've seen numerous mentions of his experience in battle. I'm willing to bet he can hold his own.


History is written by the winners, and it's easy to win when you've got Ansom leading the fight.

...Usually.

Anyway, Jetstone's always won because of sheer number of troops coupled with fat Leadership bonuses rather than a small corps of elite specialty units. Also, Tram's more of a diplomat than a warrior, royal or not; it's possible that although he's relatively high level, he could have a low personal Attack. We can see the inverse in Wanda, a mid-level caster that's absolutely devastating in hand-to-hand combat even without the Arkenpliers. Ford's tactic is to make his massive crowd of infantry mostly irrelevant while he surgically removes the heart, which is the only kind of tactic that would work in this exact scenario except for perhaps a nuclear crap golem. It will be easier to do while defending because they get to pick how and where Jetstone meets them during the rush, and can position themselves to their best advantage.

A thing to note: Most armies wouldn't use this tactic because Jetstone's massive army will not disappear. They will kill Ford and Ringo and Caped Stabber Knight and all the other undead boys and girls. But it's a suicide tactic planned for when the executioner's already at the door.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby gazes_also » Tue May 11, 2010 9:43 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
multilis wrote:Tram has what seems to be good strategy of using heavies to aim for 0 losses, biggest risk I see is Hagar. If Hagar have legally binding non aggression deal with Charlie now and enough left including leadership they could promote a new chief warlord and immediately backstab to first capture casters, then slaughter unlead stacks. Done well this would also be revenge on Charlie as could drag his reputation into mud.


Ooh, I think you might be on to something. We've already seen (in the Western Giants text update) that people can break alliance during a fight. I can't imagine Haggar's ruler is thrilled about the death of his son!


A son who was croaked by GK in a fight he was forced into by Charlie, so he takes it out on JS...
Even by the standards of Douglas Adams definition of the history of warfare that's complicated
The history of warfare is similarly subdivided though here the phases are retribution, anticipation, and diplomacy.
Thus, retribution: I'm going to kill you because you killed my brother.
Anticipation: I'm going to kill you because I killed your brother.
And diplomacy: I'm going to kill my brother and then kill you on the pretext that your brother did it.


I would have thought actually fighting the decrypted would have scared the bejebus out of Hagar's forces enough to convince Dickie that they should fully commit to the RCC and the fight against GK and all the unnatural things it stands for.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue May 11, 2010 9:52 pm

gazes_also wrote:A son who was croaked by GK in a fight he was forced into by Charlie, so he takes it out on JS...
Even by the standards of Douglas Adams definition of the history of warfare that's complicated


True, although I am assuming some level of knowledge transfer via Thinkamancer (Charlie, that so-and-so, blackmailed us).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Altima » Tue May 11, 2010 11:39 pm

@Hagar backstab discussion: I think we're all forgetting one important fact--Jetstone is about to *win*, hands-down. Hagar suffered some severe losses--though probably less than half their force since Jillian told them to pull out. Jetstone, on the other hand, has lost pretty much nothing at this point, and they're sending in their most disposable troops in to clean out the rest of GK's column.

The whole purpose of Hagar's backstab was that they would be 'late' to the battle and able to easily sweep up Spacerock from either a severely decimated GK conquering force or a severely decimated Jetstone force.

Now it seems like Jetstone is going to effortlessly roll the GK column up, then trek to Spacerock and use casters, archers, and tower defenses to annihilate Wanda's forces, leaving Jetstone with much of its forces intact.

Another consideration is where the rest of the RCC is. From what I can see, all the units we have been shown have been wearing the standard Jetstone livery. If Hagar tries and fails to take out Jetstone, it's likely that Hagar will fall in an RCC2 counter-attack, since GK's attack force will have been gutted and Hagar's forces were cut to the bone to field their column.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Lamech » Wed May 12, 2010 12:05 am

@Hagar backstab discussion: I think we're all forgetting one important fact--Jetstone is about to *win*, hands-down. Hagar suffered some severe losses--though probably less than half their force since Jillian told them to pull out. Jetstone, on the other hand, has lost pretty much nothing at this point, and they're sending in their most disposable troops in to clean out the rest of GK's column.


Hagar thinks Charlie is a mercanary. He gets hired by people, and he does stuff for them. Haggar believes Charlie's employer stabbed them in the face. That leaves a couple of people to do it. a) The small kingdom thats produced a massive number of fliers in a short time. b) Translovito currently fighting for its life and funding a massive number of fliers. c) Jetstone, which pulled up all its strength for this battle. Who's getting the blame? Even if Jillian or Translovito gets the blame their still all close allies. Jetstone justed finished attacking him, I think its possible Haggar will think that Trans-FAQ-Jetstone still want to take out Haggar, maybe he'll see alliance with GK as a better choice than being destroyed by the other royals.

P.S. If Tram gets in trouble I bet Haggar could convince the casters to go on a "rescue" mission. Sammy thought they had enough archers to take the fliers on their own, so if Haggar gets a chance to hurt Jetstone? I bet they'll take it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby ftl » Wed May 12, 2010 12:24 am

Seems kind of stupid for Haggar to break alliance.

If they break alliance, I think that ends their turn, doesn't it?

That leaves them within striking distance of Jetstone's very large and unharmed force; and worse, it leaves them RIGHT BETWEEN Jetstone's large and unharmed force and Jetstone's capital under siege which that large force MUST GET TO this turn at all costs.

There is no way any Haggar man walks out of that alive. They might take down Jetstone with them by inflicting enough casualties to give GK the victory... but that doesn't bring back the dead, colloquially speaking. (Practically speaking, it does - it means that, come 20 more turns, Haggar's going to be facing Prince Sammy and offered a choice between vassal state or death+decryption.)

No, practically speaking, Haggar has to stay allied with Jetstone until the end of Jetstone's turn at least. They might WANT to renegotiate and ally with GK - but doing so before letting Trem pass would be suicidal, and doing so after letting Trem pass might also be suicidal if Wanda gets dusted. So I think Haggar has to stick this one out with Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby multilis » Wed May 12, 2010 1:19 am

ftl wrote:Seems kind of stupid for Haggar to break alliance.

If they break alliance, I think that ends their turn, doesn't it?

That leaves them within striking distance of Jetstone's very large and unharmed force; and worse, it leaves them RIGHT BETWEEN Jetstone's large and unharmed force and Jetstone's capital under siege which that large force MUST GET TO this turn at all costs.

There is no way any Haggar man walks out of that alive. They might take down Jetstone with them by inflicting enough casualties to give GK the victory... but that doesn't bring back the dead, colloquially speaking. (Practically speaking, it does - it means that, come 20 more turns, Haggar's going to be facing Prince Sammy and offered a choice between vassal state or death+decryption.)

No, practically speaking, Haggar has to stay allied with Jetstone until the end of Jetstone's turn at least. They might WANT to renegotiate and ally with GK - but doing so before letting Trem pass would be suicidal, and doing so after letting Trem pass might also be suicidal if Wanda gets dusted. So I think Haggar has to stick this one out with Jetstone.

Haggar lost some forces we don't know how many. They were originally strong enough to stall GK, described as huge stack.

*If* they didn't suffer that many losses, and they have a good leader to promote to chief warlord, while Tram's forces are split in half, *and* they have suprise, they may be able to slaughter Jetstone with extra leadership bonus+rocking out (key would be ambushing casters before enemy knew of the betrayal).

Goal would then be to fortify, leaving Tram trapped on other side. Wanda takes out king in tough fight, and with no heir Tram's entire army disappears, then Wanda lacks ground units to hold capital and only limited units to decrypt... basically the original plan.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby DevilDan » Wed May 12, 2010 2:22 am

Reclaimer wrote:Anyway, Jetstone's always won because of sheer number of troops coupled with fat Leadership bonuses rather than a small corps of elite specialty units. Also, Tram's more of a diplomat than a warrior, royal or not; it's possible that although he's relatively high level, he could have a low personal Attack. We can see the inverse in Wanda, a mid-level caster that's absolutely devastating in hand-to-hand combat even without the Arkenpliers.


You don't succeed simply by counting on higher numbers alone. Eventually the poor use of troops or the lack of good tactics is felt. I don't much care about Tramennis's personal attack, I care far more about his tactical acumen and his bonus. He's not a diplomat by his own choice, we've learned. Slately picked him for that job because of his brains. He's proven that... even if it does get tiring to always be right.

And how much have we seen Wanda do without the 'pliers? She did knock Ansom of his carpet - together with her uncroaked air force - but what may have been the equivalent of an outflank move on Erf did not exactly incapacitate him even after a drop. Wanda may be a capable fighter, but I'd say she's powered more by plot than by stats.

Reclaimer wrote:Ford's tactic is to make his massive crowd of infantry mostly irrelevant while he surgically removes the heart, which is the only kind of tactic that would work in this exact scenario except for perhaps a nuclear crap golem. It will be easier to do while defending because they get to pick how and where Jetstone meets them during the rush, and can position themselves to their best advantage.


That's one way of saying it. I'd say that Ford's tactic is to not care about his troops surviving and attacking units that would pose a threat to Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby enthar » Wed May 12, 2010 12:24 pm

Squishalot wrote:Just a thought - how did Trammenis not have time to have breakfast as a result of the early turn?

He either:

a) Ate his salad, then walked out to meet Ansom at the bridge;
b) ... no other conclusion.

The early turn change meant nothing - he was stuck in a blowpop, and couldn't eat, irrespective of whether the turn came around at normal time or otherwise.


Or the Kingworld spell has a flaw- units do not 'refresh' at the start of a Kingworld turn- no healing (no way to tell, everyone was full healed already), no upkeep cost (no mention of the treasury either way), no food pop (only an off hand comment in a text update). Just a new set of movement points and the initiative again.

Pretty thin gruel to support such a hypothesis, but TFH's have been crafted on less. Eh, why not, I'll throw it out there.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Neko » Wed May 12, 2010 1:31 pm

multilis wrote:Haggar lost some forces we don't know how many. They were originally strong enough to stall GK, described as huge stack.

*If* they didn't suffer that many losses, and they have a good leader to promote to chief warlord, while Tram's forces are split in half, *and* they have suprise, they may be able to slaughter Jetstone with extra leadership bonus+rocking out (key would be ambushing casters before enemy knew of the betrayal).

Goal would then be to fortify, leaving Tram trapped on other side. Wanda takes out king in tough fight, and with no heir Tram's entire army disappears, then Wanda lacks ground units to hold capital and only limited units to decrypt... basically the original plan.


Without Sammy it is unclear how much the other Haggar Warlords can rock. It is implied in the comic that after Sammy was decapitated, the rest of his force was toast. Losing CWL Bonus, High Lvl Warlord bonus, AND super-Rockout bonus really sucked for them. Haggar is probably (my personal guesstimate) about the same troop strength as the GK column under Ford.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Lamech » Wed May 12, 2010 2:28 pm

If they break alliance, I think that ends their turn, doesn't it?
They don't need to move. All the units they need to hit are already in the hex, or have to go through their hex anyway.

That leaves them within striking distance of Jetstone's very large and unharmed force; and worse, it leaves them RIGHT BETWEEN Jetstone's large and unharmed force and Jetstone's capital under siege which that large force MUST GET TO this turn at all costs.
A big chunk of Jetstone's close combat units are stuck on the other side of the bridge, and if Haggar get surprise they can probably take out the casters and archers. Then the Jetstone forces have to retreat across the bridge, while fighting GK, take the bridge while being pelted by archers from both sides... If Haggar backstabs here it will go over much better than backstabbing when the Jetstone forces are together at the capital. If Haggar wants to backstab their choices are a)Now, when the casters and archers are seperated from the leadership, heavies and infantry, and Haggar has a great defensive position. b) All of Jetstone is together and Jetstone has a great defensive position.

Also having to cross the bridge at ALL COSTS means that if Haggar stands aside they won't be attacked.
No, practically speaking, Haggar has to stay allied with Jetstone until the end of Jetstone's turn at least. They might WANT to renegotiate and ally with GK - but doing so before letting Trem pass would be suicidal, and doing so after letting Trem pass might also be suicidal if Wanda gets dusted. So I think Haggar has to stick this one out with Jetstone.
Even if Haggar turns traitor Tram can not afford to set them straight.

Even if Wanda falls what does it really mean for GK? If the decrypted go thats a problem. But if they don't? The hammer alone is the production capacity of over half a dozen level 5 cities. GK has money coming out their ears. They have all of Unaroyal and some of Jetstone already. They have the mathamacy bracer and Parson. If Jillian's force can punch through two cities in a turn what do you think a hundered dwagons can pull? Translovito has enough trouble of their own, so they can't help, Jillian works for Trans and I don't see an other allies in this fight.

Right now if Haggar wants to sign up with GK they can steal three of Jetstone's casters and maybe save Wanda. So it really comes down to who they think offers the better deal, GK or the royals... maybe they'll "ask" for a better deal a couple casters or something small like that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby gazes_also » Wed May 12, 2010 3:18 pm

Lamech wrote:
If they break alliance, I think that ends their turn, doesn't it?
They don't need to move. All the units they need to hit are already in the hex, or have to go through their hex anyway.

That leaves them within striking distance of Jetstone's very large and unharmed force; and worse, it leaves them RIGHT BETWEEN Jetstone's large and unharmed force and Jetstone's capital under siege which that large force MUST GET TO this turn at all costs.
A big chunk of Jetstone's close combat units are stuck on the other side of the bridge, and if Haggar get surprise they can probably take out the casters and archers. Then the Jetstone forces have to retreat across the bridge, while fighting GK, take the bridge while being pelted by archers from both sides... If Haggar backstabs here it will go over much better than backstabbing when the Jetstone forces are together at the capital. If Haggar wants to backstab their choices are a)Now, when the casters and archers are seperated from the leadership, heavies and infantry, and Haggar has a great defensive position. b) All of Jetstone is together and Jetstone has a great defensive position.

Also having to cross the bridge at ALL COSTS means that if Haggar stands aside they won't be attacked.
No, practically speaking, Haggar has to stay allied with Jetstone until the end of Jetstone's turn at least. They might WANT to renegotiate and ally with GK - but doing so before letting Trem pass would be suicidal, and doing so after letting Trem pass might also be suicidal if Wanda gets dusted. So I think Haggar has to stick this one out with Jetstone.
Even if Haggar turns traitor Tram can not afford to set them straight.

Even if Wanda falls what does it really mean for GK? If the decrypted go thats a problem. But if they don't? The hammer alone is the production capacity of over half a dozen level 5 cities. GK has money coming out their ears. They have all of Unaroyal and some of Jetstone already. They have the mathamacy bracer and Parson. If Jillian's force can punch through two cities in a turn what do you think a hundered dwagons can pull? Translovito has enough trouble of their own, so they can't help, Jillian works for Trans and I don't see an other allies in this fight.

Right now if Haggar wants to sign up with GK they can steal three of Jetstone's casters and maybe save Wanda. So it really comes down to who they think offers the better deal, GK or the royals... maybe they'll "ask" for a better deal a couple casters or something small like that.



Most of the theories on Hagar turning are based on the motivation of spite. seems insufficient.
Hagar's primary strategy is apparently to avoid a straight up fight with anything approaching a full-strength force, but to pick off weakened sides, Jetstone is no longer at risk of a catastrophic defeat so they're not ripe for taking. Sammy's demise was in large part a result of Hagar's deviousness and politics aside, it was GK who croaked him so alliance seems really unlikely.
Plus, and this is a big one: if Hagar assumes that Charlie was following orders from someone in RCC to push them into the fight, will they not also assume that any further lack of "enthusiasm" for the cause will result in retribution? Whether they like it or not, Hagar are committed to the RCC (and Jetstone would be wise to hire Charlie to make sure they stay committed)

If Wanda goes, assuming the decrypted remain GK has a big problem holding what it has. Jillian can punch through two cities in a turn right now because they are weakly defended. They are overstretched as it is garrisoning all their captured cities, without decryption to discourage attacks and provide new recruits from those they don't discourage, most of their gains will be given up in pretty short order.
Even if the decrypted continue what will their value be? Morale, duty and loyalty will take a massive hit, they may be reduced to unled infantry or revert to uncroaked and start to decay.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Archameades » Wed May 12, 2010 3:57 pm

Wouldn't it be great if Haggar breaks alliance just after Jetstone moves their forces across the bridge to destroy Gk's remaining ground forces? End of turn or not they could destroy the rest of Jetstone's troops in the hex. Most of the remaining forces would be unled infantry, archers and casters. Shouldn't be too much trouble. Then Jetstone and GK can dull each other on the capital fight. Without a ground occupation force, Wanda and Co would probably have to withdraw since I doubt they could hold the garrison or tower with just their Knights, Warlords and Casters.

With Tram's forces split I doubt he could defeat what's left of Haggar's column, since even half of a massive stack is pretty huge. But who knows, I can't wait to find out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Altima » Wed May 12, 2010 4:46 pm

enthar wrote:Or the Kingworld spell has a flaw- units do not 'refresh' at the start of a Kingworld turn- no healing (no way to tell, everyone was full healed already), no upkeep cost (no mention of the treasury either way), no food pop (only an off hand comment in a text update). Just a new set of movement points and the initiative again.

Pretty thin gruel to support such a hypothesis, but TFH's have been crafted on less. Eh, why not, I'll throw it out there.

Enthar


I really like this idea of Kingworld having a flaw other than, supposedly, draining enough juice from the caster(s) for two turns (despite Vanna turning around and still have enough juice to attemp to turn Ansom). Even the uncroaked Volcano had a huge cost--destroyed the city and just about every unit, on both sides, in it apart from a handful of uncroaked.

I mean, there would have to be some sort of massive cost, or Charlie would simply make use of it at every opportunity (every few turns?).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 023

Postby Rogthnor01 » Wed May 12, 2010 5:25 pm

I think someone mentioned that as a trimancer link charlie could kill himself trying to break the link and that it also took down his communications for a while. He has already been mentioned as making a ton of money of thinkagrams in one of the summer updartes, think the worlds only telephone company, and it stops his communication with his archons.
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