Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Postby Oberon » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:44 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:And for the most part, that's how the comic handles this. My beef here is not with the comic creators, it's with us, and our penchant to think that Parson is the sole innovation engine of Erfworld.
I certainly don't think that. If anything the amount of innovation Parson has been able to do is the shocking thing. In a world like Erf, where there are a fixed number of caster types and thus also a fixed number of bi- and tri-mancer links, one would expect that the possibilities would have been well explored by now. I've posted this in the past. The Magic Kingdom, for example, has the requisite casters and spares to enhance safety to loan to research and development. We see that this is ongoing, with the development of the summoning spell. But given the small number of possible permutations true innovation should be very, very rare indeed, as all the easy stuff would already be common knowledge. The uncroaking of the volcano requires a very specific piece of terrain, a dormant volcano with a portal (or no one lives to tell about the discovery of the new spell), which we have only seen in one place. So it is very plausible that this use of this specific tri-mancer link would have gone undiscovered. Kingworld appears to also have some specific requirements which make it a conceivable "discovery", as it might not be possible without the Arkendish, and this makes its use by Charlie and the astonishment of all of the observers plausible. What remains to be seen is whether Charlie will continue using what is to all appearances a repeatable magic spell with such a lovely effect.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:07 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:This creates an almost EVOLUTIONARY bias against creativity.


OMG! Not EVOLUTIONARY! That's almost as bad as QUANTUM!

BS faddish jargon aside, I think you're wrong. A war is the best time for innovation and discovery in matters related to war, as any cursory reading of Earth's history will tell you.

And that's the thing- on a mental level, Erfworlders are not that deficient against Earthers. Yes, a lot of them just follow orders and are content. Should sound familiar IRL too.

Also, innovation IS extremely rare and unlikely, even here. The catch, if a lot of people, for a lot of time, have been cracking at something, you'll find what there is to find eventually. And certainly you WILL FIND whatever some stranger to your world, who needs to be taught about chamber pots, will figure out.

Oberon wrote:In a world like Erf, where there are a fixed number of caster types and thus also a fixed number of bi- and tri-mancer links, one would expect that the possibilities would have been well explored by now. I've posted this in the past.


And so did I, on that one.

The uncroaking of the volcano requires a very specific piece of terrain, a dormant volcano with a portal (or no one lives to tell about the discovery of the new spell), which we have only seen in one place. {snip} Kingworld appears to also have some specific requirements which make it a conceivable "discovery", as it might not be possible without the Arkendish, and this makes its use by Charlie and the astonishment of all of the observers plausible.


Correct. I do expect innovation to happen, but it should happen in situations that probably have been rarely, if at all, encountered in the past. Another example of that are the attuned Pliers. The Decrypted seem genuinely new, and so all bets are off regarding them. Let's do SCIENCE!
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:20 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG! Not EVOLUTIONARY! That's almost as bad as QUANTUM!

BS faddish jargon aside, I think you're wrong.


Uhh... what? Why is usage of a term appropriate to the context somehow faddish jargon?

A war is the best time for innovation and discovery in matters related to war, as any cursory reading of Earth's history will tell you.


On earth, yes. But on Erf, war is all they have ever known, and it has not really resulted in anything remotely similar. Earth and Erf are fundamentally different in many ways. That was one of the themes of Book One.

And that's the thing- on a mental level, Erfworlders are not that deficient against Earthers. Yes, a lot of them just follow orders and are content. Should sound familiar IRL too.


Maybe not deficient, but it's obvious that they think differently.

Also, innovation IS extremely rare and unlikely, even here. The catch, if a lot of people, for a lot of time, have been cracking at something, you'll find what there is to find eventually. And certainly you WILL FIND whatever some stranger to your world, who needs to be taught about chamber pots, will figure out.


That is your hypothesis, and yet it is one that does not appear to be supported by anything we've seen so far. And some of these sides are presumably thousands of turns old.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Postby gazes_also » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:35 pm

There is a lot of internal evidence that GK cannot take any kind of initiative in attacking JS off turn and can't do anything until they are attacked.

Wanda & co: been sitting around discussing defensive strategies, no sense of urgency to do something before the column gets back.

Tramennis, Jillian & co: not worried about Wanda doing anything, several leisurely planning meetings to finish off the column before returning to Spacerock.

AND FINALLY
Parson: asked to be connected to Jack, not Wanda, who is the de facto commander and if there was something that had to be done immediately before JS can gather it's forces, that's who he would talk to. Talking to Jack means a subtle defensive plan, not a crash bang attack.
He has been leafing through his klog for the last two updates, so no sense of absolute do-it-now-now-now urgency to strike at the city before the window of opportunity is gone.

Why?
Because they can't do anything until they are attacked.
They're stuck in the airspace zone and can't move anywhere else.

My guess is some kind of nasty poison pill defense that makes the prospect of shooting down those dwagons much less attractive and much more costly.
And I still think Charlie ends up grabbing Wanda.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:56 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:Uhh... what? Why is usage of a term appropriate to the context {EVOLUTIONARY} somehow faddish jargon?


1) Hyperbole

2) We have reasons to suspect evolution is not happening in Erfworld. The existence of heredity is dubious, for example.

3) You in this here post say

Ansan Gotti wrote:That's because every unit that pops is essentially the same. There is no change, there is no increase in technology.


Ok, so 3) came after I wrote what you were responding to here, and may only mean that change exists but is really really slow.

But you get the idea- it's not the case that the term is appropriate to the context, and I read it as (a maybe tongue in cheek) attempt to boost the argument.

Ansan Gotti wrote:On earth, yes. But on Erf, war is all they have ever known, and it has not really resulted in anything remotely similar. Earth and Erf are fundamentally different in many ways. That was one of the themes of Book One.

{...}

Maybe not deficient, but it's obvious that they think differently.


The relevant differences here are the absence of archives and the fully formed popping. Which does not stop Vinnie from getting the hit and run against siege tactic, or Tremennis to get the flier relay from nothing but rumours, or Trem for trying out a not fashionable in JS heavy assault, or Jillian to conjure up a "direct" way to capture units with the marshmallow beast. Ansom knew to ask for DDR.

So even without a need for learning, Erfworlders as a whole are not learning deficient, some of them have advanced tactical knowledge (same thing on Earth), they will stumble into tactics that they individually may not have actually used before.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Parson's Klog 001

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:57 pm

The evolutionary comment is one that I believe will apply to sides, more so than overall units. If a side is more inclined to pop units with low individuality, then less of its units will auto-disband due to disobedience, which will incrementally mean greater resources available to fight and greater success. Obviously, on a micro-level this is insignificant, but on the macro-level, over many turns, these sides will tend to be more successful.

Of course, this presumes that individuality is a trait that can be quantified and distinguishable vis-a-vis each side, and that as that side grows it may split (as has been alluded) and that the new sides born of that side will have similar low individuality.

So yes, it's kind of a theoretical argument of my own. :)
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Previous

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests