Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Nihila » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:03 pm

Oh, Candlejack the famous spookamance
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby joosy » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:07 pm

The only Weirdomancer I know is named Al Yankovic.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Unclever title » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:58 pm

ftl wrote:
effataigus wrote:Aye, if they can land and if it is a good idea then why hasn't the strike force thought of it? We know we can't fly, but we still jump out of high windows of burning buildings. Maybe they haven't seen the tactical advantage of it yet?

Something tells me they aren't scared of doing it. Especially Wanda... if the Titans are guiding her they wouldn't kill her with a fall.

I'm guessing Weirdomancers have been hard at work in Erfworld for a long time. I've heard they can also make Klogs end mid-sentence and stop forum posters from


I'm waiting to run into a Weirdomancer named candleja


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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Cyanshine » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:23 am

This is drifting off topic so we
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:41 am

PS: this is not to exclude Parson from being a very, very good Warlord. He's a quick learner, well respected by his own side, has good ideas. May even pull the occasional bit of diplomacy now and then. Speculating about Parson as a sole tactical innovator of Erfworld is what gets my goat.
This got me thinking: How many people are there to innovate tactics in Erfworld? In this fight we have Jillian, not much happening there; she apperently doesn't really listen to her chief. We have the Don, and his warlords and casters so maybe 20. Same thing for Jetstone, and apperantly for GK Wanda, and Ansom called the shots for the army, but Parson and Jack did some work on there time off.

So in this corner of the world theres maybe 50ish people. We have no reason to believe that they would be any better than an average person, and a bunch to believe they'll be rather hidebound. Also from the councils we've seen in Erfworld lower ranking people are often ignored. Webinar's girlfriend for example... (Dorra? I'm not sure). In the real world the people doing the innovations and leading the military are often picked and selected for merit from a MUCH larger pool than in Erfworld. I think one huge advantage Earth would have over Erfworld is talent pool. Parson is drawn from the talent pool of Earth 1 out of lots. The best of Erf is one of a few.

So I don't think Parson finding cool new innovations is not that unbelievable.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:08 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:That's because every unit that pops is essentially the same. There is no change, there is no increase in technology. Again, this militates in favor of a static, non-creative situation. Add to that the limited information available to sides, and the bias in favor of mindless obedience rather than potentially results-in-disbanding innovation, and you have a situation where people don't innovate.


Empiri-test. Name a few people that got disbanded for being creative. Parson was almost disbanded when one plan failed, but hey, Stanley.

Ansom tried out a tactic he presumably did not try before. Tremennis did the same recently.

And limited information is what everyone everywhere has. How strong are the limits? Well, the example of the flier relay. Jetstone surely had no spies inside GK to figure that one out, all they had were rumours and random glimpses when scouting- maybe. And yet, Tremennis paid a visit to his brother with JS new fangled airlines.

So the question is, in these limited information conditions, what can you do? Can you, for example, know to ask about DDR?

Then the limits are not functionally significant. That Ansom (only Ansom?) knew to ask for DDR (and uhhm, slipped probing for veils or something ...) only means that knowledge is unequally distrributed. Same thing in our world.

Lamech wrote:This got me thinking: How many people are there to innovate tactics in Erfworld? {only a few; snip}

In the real world the people doing the innovations and leading the military are often picked and selected for merit from a MUCH larger pool than in Erfworld. I think one huge advantage Earth would have over Erfworld is talent pool. Parson is drawn from the talent pool of Earth 1 out of lots. The best of Erf is one of a few.

So I don't think Parson finding cool new innovations is not that unbelievable.


That's true, but Parson needs to work against two penalties here. One is that, as un-innovative as Erfworlders are they do show some initiative and creativity once in a while, and have been doing that for quite some time; easy fruit is picked. The second is that he needs to figure out their world, while they are much better adapted to it.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:52 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Empiri-test. Name a few people that got disbanded for being creative. Parson was almost disbanded when one plan failed, but hey, Stanley.


It's not just Stanley, BLAND. It's a rule of the world.

"It's not about being sorry! It's about disobeying an order!" As Parson sat in the Parson-sized chair that Zhopa the Twoll had made for him, Stanley kept circling him like a shark. "You shouldn't be able to do that!" Stanley suddenly pointed at him. "Slap yourself!"

Parson slapped his own face. Fairly hard, too. It was a weird half-reflex action. He was definitely still subject to the Tool's orders. "Ow," he said, without enthusiasm.

"You bet, 'ow!'" yelled Stanley. But he did look a little bit mollified. "So how could you disobey an order? How could you shirk your Duty?"


http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

Ansom tried out a tactic he presumably did not try before. Tremennis did the same recently.
And limited information is what everyone everywhere has. How strong are the limits? Well, the example of the flier relay. Jetstone surely had no spies inside GK to figure that one out, all they had were rumours and random glimpses when scouting- maybe. And yet, Tremennis paid a visit to his brother with JS new fangled airlines.
So the question is, in these limited information conditions, what can you do? Can you, for example, know to ask about DDR?
Then the limits are not functionally significant. That Ansom (only Ansom?) knew to ask for DDR (and uhhm, slipped probing for veils or something ...) only means that knowledge is unequally distrributed. Same thing in our world.


The flyer relay was pretty clearly derivative, and it was stated as fact, not theory:

"Nonsense! I'm telling you, we should do it more. The enemy is." He stepped back and put his hand on his hip, beside the hilt of his rapier. "Anyway, Prince's privilege. I knew I'd want to talk to you after diplomatic rounds."

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... reaker.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:47 pm

As for innovation, anybody with a few brains that comes from a different world would be bound to come up with a good idea or two, something locals might not have contemplated. The odds get much better when you have an offworlder like Parson, a brilliant, very knowledgeable master strategist applying his full intellect to not being stabbitied.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:54 pm

DevilDan wrote:As for innovation, anybody with a few brains that comes from a different world would be bound to come up with a good idea or two, something locals might not have contemplated.


You seem to think that obvious. Obviously I disagree. *prima-donna* I can't have an argument in these conditions!

But seriously, we are disagreeing on a fundamental level here. Can an outsider really spot something in a system that they haven't learned?

Well, of course. Can that outsider also spot something that was missed by insiders, who have a wealth of experience? I think it's reasonable to believe the answer is no. Easy fruit would be picked. More advanced fruit needs asking the right questions and probing the right places. Which actually takes some experience to get right.

Ansan Gotti wrote:It's not just Stanley, BLAND. It's a rule of the world.

"It's not about being sorry! It's about disobeying an order!" As Parson sat in the Parson-sized chair that Zhopa the Twoll had made for him, Stanley kept circling him like a shark. "You shouldn't be able to do that!" Stanley suddenly pointed at him. "Slap yourself!" {snip}


I repeat the question. Who got disbanded for being creative?

Oh and the flier relay was derivative, and I've used EXACTLY as such in my arguments. My argument goes, even in the limited information conditions of Erfworld, Tremennis could understand how it works. This is to show that if some innovation occurs anywhere, there's a good chance it will be replicated if it works, even when the originators would clearly not want it replicated by enemies.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Alexei P » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:23 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Can that outsider also spot something that was missed by insiders, who have a wealth of experience? I think it's reasonable to believe the answer is no. Easy fruit would be picked. More advanced fruit needs asking the right questions and probing the right places. Which actually takes some experience to get right.


What's particular in Parson's case is that he has years of experience of probing the exact right places to find that exact variety of advanced fruit through experience with countless strategy games. In that sense, he isn't an "outsider" to the system - more like a very advanced expert.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:45 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I repeat the question. Who got disbanded for being creative?


As the update I linked indicated, units that disobey orders disband. Automatically. Stanley knew this without question. So I'm sure there are many units over the history of Erfworld who have disbanded as a result. This is true despite the fact that we may not have seen it on-screen in the limited slice of action that we have available to us.

Oh and the flier relay was derivative, and I've used EXACTLY as such in my arguments. My argument goes, even in the limited information conditions of Erfworld, Tremennis could understand how it works. This is to show that if some innovation occurs anywhere, there's a good chance it will be replicated if it works, even when the originators would clearly not want it replicated by enemies.


I don't think we disagree, then. The point is that Parson is the change agent, the catalyst. He is the one who is innovating. And to the extent others are innovating at all, it is either copying him or attempting to adjust to him. He is the X-Factor.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby DevilDan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:53 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DevilDan wrote:As for innovation, anybody with a few brains that comes from a different world would be bound to come up with a good idea or two, something locals might not have contemplated.


You seem to think that obvious. Obviously I disagree. *prima-donna* I can't have an argument in these conditions!

But seriously, we are disagreeing on a fundamental level here. Can an outsider really spot something in a system that they haven't learned?

Well, of course. Can that outsider also spot something that was missed by insiders, who have a wealth of experience? I think it's reasonable to believe the answer is no. Easy fruit would be picked. More advanced fruit needs asking the right questions and probing the right places. Which actually takes some experience to get right.


Which makes the second half of my post relevant:

DevilDan wrote:The odds get much better when you have an offworlder like Parson, a brilliant, very knowledgeable master strategist applying his full intellect to not being stabbitied.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby taltamir » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:14 pm

Also, does this mean that Bogroll's sacrifice might have been in vain, and that GK was just super lucky that the fall killed Ansom instead of just injuring or incapacitating him? I'd like to think that regardless of the outcome of Ansom's fall, Bogroll croaked him by doing some serious crushing damage.

AFAIK bogroll tried to stab ansom to deal with a spear. The whole falling down was due to ansom fighting back, and probably not intentional. Also the whole spear in the gut might have helped him die.
Bog roll was croaked by ansom's troops, not the fall.
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