Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Carne » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:40 pm

Based on the wiki, the tower is part of the garrison, and can only be attacked from the air. This may mean it counts as a ground-level sub-zone and subject to the "things fall on it" rule. Gravity pulls things down regardless to land on whatever is underneath. Therefore, it should be possible to move down to the tower via gravity so long as there's some sort of place for the units to fall to that they won't fall off. It may also be possibly to leap from a flying unit to the tower, or use inertia to move from airspace to tower so long as you're not flying at the transition point (stunned, incapacitated, weirdomanced etc.) so long as the boundary between air/tower isn't treated the same as a vertical hex boundary (i.e. it counts as an air-to-ground attack, rather than a cross zone attack).

Wanda has been described as someone able to cast in other schools but only interested in croakamancy. Would be be able/willing to suspend flight ability for all units if it could cut the battle short?

Unloading the troops to the courtyard seems like folly, especially on your own off-turn. At that point, your flyers are stuck on the ground, since gravity only works one way. Plus, all enemy units with sufficient move are able to move back into the city and engage. With what we know about Jetstone being infantry heavy, this seems Bad.

Similarly, how long does it take for units to move from one city zone to another? How many units can each zone support? It seems unlikely that Jetstone could move all available units into the tower for defense. It also seems unlikely that it can move them with zero "realtime" elapsed given Erfworld's bizarre hybrid real-time/turn-based physics.


If there truly is some way to move from air to tower, a decapitation strike seems the best option. Using the element of surprise (no-one will expect you to be able to move between city zones when it's not your turn) invade the tower and take out Slately before the tower can be reinforced. Alternatively, depending on the number of yellows and the strength of their attacks, the tower might be able to be bombarded by battle crap.


Also, the range of the pliers. Since the Arkendish can link over multiple hexes, there's no reason to think the 'pliers can't decrypt over city zone boundaries (of course, the flip side is that, until it is shown to be possible, there's no evidence that they can, either).
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby splintermute » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:04 pm

Carne wrote: It may also be possibly to leap from a flying unit to the tower, or use inertia to move from airspace to tower so long as you're not flying at the transition point (stunned, incapacitated, weirdomanced etc.) so long as the boundary between air/tower isn't treated the same as a vertical hex boundary (i.e. it counts as an air-to-ground attack, rather than a cross zone attack).

Except the klog specifically says that the air/tower boundary works the same as a vertical hex boundary: "He said if you shot it ... at the tower, it would stick in the air."
Carne wrote:Unloading the troops to the courtyard seems like folly, especially on your own off-turn. At that point, your flyers are stuck on the ground, since gravity only works one way. Plus, all enemy units with sufficient move are able to move back into the city and engage. With what we know about Jetstone being infantry heavy, this seems Bad.

Since they can't go from airspace to tower, the courtyard is the next best thing - the courtyard, tower and dungeons are all part of the garrison. If the garrison is treated as a unitary zone, then they can enter the tower via the courtyard.

The disadvantage of leaving the air zone is that it leaves them vulnerable to JS flyers, except JS doesn't really have any, aside from a few orlies and unipegataurs (perhaps leave a dwagon behind to take care of them). The advantages, assuming they survive the fall, and land en masse in a single concentrated group, are numerous - they're resistant to the JS archers (assuming that's why Ansom ordered them to land during the capture of Ossomer), and they don't have to deal with all the JS infantry at once - this isn't a clash of armies on an open field; they'll have a relatively short front line or perimeter to deal with, and the rest of the JS infantry will just be massed uselessly behind that front line, awaiting their turn, except in this case any front line JS unit that falls becomes a powerful GK reinforcement (although the downside of a short perimeter is that there are fewer units that the JS casters need to divide their attention between). Even better if they can land near the gates before Tramennis gets a chance to bring his troops in, or if they can land next to the tower entrance.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:18 pm

Ditto wrote:
A unit that jumps does not have the Flying ability, so it is unable to cross into airspace. It's kind of funny to think that Jetstone could make a human tower of infantry just to get up to Wanda's height and everyone blows her raspberries, but they can't touch them because no matter how tall they are, they're still on the ground. :D


Agreed. In fact it seems to me to make more sense to treat flight as an object property. Under normal circumstances, an object with the property Grounded cannot affect one with the property Flying, regardless of their relative altitudes. And if a Grounded object falls, it does not aquire Flying, it is merely transitioning between surfaces.

Archery is one exception to that. Archers have the special Impart Flight to Arrows. This is different from throwing, which as far as we have seen, is only used by Grounded objects against other Grounded objects. Hence thrown objects are pretty much the same as falling objects.

Woodsy elves are apparently another exception. They have the special Interact with Flying Objects, which is not a function of their height. Rather, their height is Signimancy of that special.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby JustDoug » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:24 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:But you're still wrong. To summarize my response, creativity is a rare thing on Earth too, but when enough people work at a problem, for enough time, in favourable conditions (which when creativity is concerned, include war), they will find pretty much almost all there is to find, and certainly all that a stranger to their world, who needs to be potty trained, will be able to find in a mere couple hundred turns.



Do tell? Then all those many centuries of astronomy and mankind examining the heavens mean that folks like Copernicus, Gallileo and Newton were just rehashing old material?

The majority of people already know how things are, so sparing thoughts upon questioning things is, in their point of view, an utter waste of time. They know What It Is. It often takes someone thinking outside the proverbial box to suss out the most basic, simplest things and ask those wonderfully simple questions- like wonder if there's a box in the first place. As for potty training- Einstein was not known as a wonderful mathematician during his career (and was not even working as a physicist when he first published).

If you don't know what the problem is, or even that there's a problem to work at, nobody is going to work at it. They'll just do the things that they know the way they've always been done.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby gazes_also » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:34 pm

Lamech wrote:]And if they attack RIGHT NOW they would be going against... the limited garrison defense. Tram is messing around with the remaining ground forces last time we checked and Jillian is long gone. GK doesn't need to bother with moving into the tower, they can simply fall right on to it. The main difference is GK not Jillian chooses were they fall, and Jillian can't take pot shots before GK falls. Both those push the chance of victory up. (Assuming of course the dwagons can choose to fall and the wierdomancer could have blasted them all.)


They cannot initiate an attack, only react to being attacked, which won't happen until Tram gets back. They cannot storm the tower from the ground therefore can't get to Slately. Remember, the Tower is in a different zone of the city -http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-02-24.jpg Jillian couldn't even reach it until the Kingworld spell so Wanda and group cannot reach the tower.

No tower - no Slately
No Slately - no victory
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby mastigo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:40 pm

imgran wrote:What it also means is that Ansom got lucky when Wanda knociking him off his carpet with her air force didn't kill him outright. Not a lot lucky, but lucky. (had about a 33% chance of dying there, but he was just Incapacitated.

Also AAARRGGGH for finishing in midsentence!!!!!

66% chance of dying, he had no Healomancers near him.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Carne » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:45 pm

splintermute wrote:Except the klog specifically says that the air/tower boundary works the same as a vertical hex boundary: "He said if you shot it ... at the tower, it would stick in the air."

...

Since they can't go from airspace to tower, the courtyard is the next best thing - the courtyard, tower and dungeons are all part of the garrison. If the garrison is treated as a unitary zone, then they can enter the tower via the courtyard.


Hmm, granted re:the vertical airspace/tower boundary. Despite the wiki stating that the tower can only be assaulted from the air, I would think it logical that the courtyard needs to be fully captured prior to any tower ground assault.

Back to the air-to-tower theory: what if they bombard the tower from above? The roof of the Spacerock tower does look somewhat steep. Can battlecrap just be put "out there" or does it need to be aimed? Does a straight-down shot against the tower count the same as a straight down shot into the courtyard? If not, can you produce a low- or no-velocity crap and let it fall; could it pierce the roof? Does a straight-down shot against the tower count the same as a straight down shot into the courtyard? Would that leave an entry point for gravitationally offloaded troops? One suspects the airspace over a tower is still airspace - that tower does not extend infinitely high. Klog002 does not appear to go far enough explaining all the potential ways to break the rules with gravity.

splintermute wrote:The disadvantage of leaving the air zone is that it leaves them vulnerable to JS flyers, except JS doesn't really have any, aside from a few orlies and unipegataurs (perhaps leave a dwagon behind to take care of them). The advantages, assuming they survive the fall, and land en masse in a single concentrated group, are numerous - they're resistant to the JS archers (assuming that's why Ansom ordered them to land during the capture of Ossomer), and they don't have to deal with all the JS infantry at once - this isn't a clash of armies on an open field; they'll have a relatively short front line or perimeter to deal with, and the rest of the JS infantry will just be massed uselessly behind that front line, awaiting their turn, except in this case any front line JS unit that falls becomes a powerful GK reinforcement (although the downside of a short perimeter is that there are fewer units that the JS casters need to divide their attention between). Even better if they can land near the gates before Tramennis gets a chance to bring his troops in, or if they can land next to the tower entrance.


That makes sense. The city gate would become a chokepoint similar to the earlier bridge battle. From the wiki, that appears to be the only way into the city for ground units (even friendly ones), unless you count tunnels => dungeon => courtyard (assuming Spacerock has tunnels, that isn't a given).

However this raises the question: is there anything that is unreasonably good against a grounded dragon, would Jetstone have any, and what could be done to defend against it? In many other games of various types, grounded flyers are typically considered to be far less strong vs. other units, given their strength typically comes from air superiority. Relying on timely and frequent decryptions may be a bit of a gamble, but not an unreasonably large one.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:46 pm

JustDoug wrote:Do tell? Then all those many centuries of astronomy and mankind examining the heavens mean that folks like Copernicus, Gallileo and Newton were just rehashing old material?


Fudge it. Let's go all guns blazing and answer - YES.

Spoiler: show
Newton, as he himself said, saw so far because he stood on the shoulders of giants. He was not being modest (it was not his style). He was referring to the empirical laws describing planetary motion discovered by Kepler, themselves inferred from data painstakingly collected over a lifetime by Tycho Brache.

Further, the development of the sciences in the later part of the XIXth and XXth century has more to do with the establishment of a very strong institutional culture- universities and reasearch centers.

The great productivity and creativity in any difficult domain, even a purely theoretical one like maths (that doesn't need a lot of funding for experiments) is made possible by such institutions/cultures/groups of people.

Perelman solved the Poincare Conjecture recently. He did that by immersing himself in the previous work of several generations of mathematicians, while himself being part of a collective that was very good at the study of advanced differential equations, which gave him some crucial insight into eventually cracking that problem.

Einstein sucked as a mathematician. And indeed, without the help of Lorentz, Poincare, Minkowski and his wife (loosely defined help in the case of Poincare and Lorentz, who did not, I think, directly collaborate with Einstein) he would have gotten nowhere.

(EDIT: at the fringes of the history of science, there is some primacy dispute on the Theory of Relativity. It's poorly based, but there is a grain of truth there. "An idea whose time has come" is a frequent phenomenon, meaning several people make similar contributions more or less at once. It happens once knowledge is just right.)


You know what else has had a strong institutional culture since who knows when? The Military, that's who.

Anyway, the point of the rant above is to show that, geek-pandering as the fantasy of the lone genius may be, the world does not work that way.

JustDoug wrote:If you don't know what the problem is, or even that there's a problem to work at, nobody is going to work at it. They'll just do the things that they know the way they've always been done.


See, this is where the Military gets a bonus. You know what the problem is very well, all the time. Croak those dudes, so that they don't croak you.

Yes, sometimes, like I said, one country may get it into its head that there's only one good/efficient/honourable way to wage war. There's always a neighbour to knock some sense into them.

EDIT, take 2:

Parson can try to tell Erfworlders about something genuinely new to them. Consent. That's because Parson knows what that is, and Erfworlders don't.

OTOH, Erfworlders know better than Parson what a Dwagon is, or what a Crap Golem is, or what Weirdomancy does.

I don't require all Erfworlders to be Feynmanns. But you seem to require that all Erfworlders be idiots, and it's either patently untrue or jarringly weird if true after all.

Because, since Erfworld is big bla-bla etc, and the tech level seems stable, surely by now a world dedicated to warfare and murder has discovered what murderous methods are possible at this tech level. Even if there are only a few smart and initiative-driven people. Earth works like that too.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Ditto » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:02 pm

Everybody saying the Pliers need to be able to work across boundaries is missing the point. Two points, actually. First, there is no hex boundary between airspace and ground. It is some other kind of boundary, and the divider is the ground itself.

This is inaccurate. For an attacker, it costs moves to go from the air to the courtyard to the tower to the dungeon, etc. Costing move = hex boundary. When it is your own side's city, you gain a special exception to that rule - similar to the exception archers get that let their arrows cross boundaries. But If you can't cross a line without move, it's exactly like a hex boundary.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby gazes_also » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:03 pm

One other point against landing in the courtyard. Doing so could potentially bring siege defence weapons into play.
It is logical that a city like Spacerock would have droppable and throwable anti-assault weapons - rocks, boiling oil etc - that would be useless against an aerial foe but which are specifically meant to be used against an enemy force that has breached the outer walls and is in the courtyard.

A Dwagon is a pretty big target to drop a whopping big rock on.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby gazes_also » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:09 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:[
Fudge it. Let's go all guns blazing and answer - YES.
...



My hat is off to you. Well put.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Calemyr » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:45 pm

I'm absolutely certain this strategy has been proposed before, but I didn't see it and I'd rather be a copycat than a mute on this. Anyway, this page suggests a very ugly strategy to my mind, a high cost, high risk one that would only be a viable option when all units in a battle are effectively lost regardless of outcome. Like now.

1) Begin combat as usual. If the barrier distinguishes between attack and object (the shot arrow sticks but the dropped arrow falls through), the FPACG Armor trick may still be viable. Otherwise it is effectively a standard battle between ranged units. The dwagon shield approach can be used to manage damage more effectively, and to suggest to the enemy that a turtling strategy is being employed. High value units (Wanda and Jack) should not be damaged, but damage to Wanda's mount is a necesity for this strategy to work.

2) As combat continues, allow for dwagons to be croaked. Position them so that their falling corpses will cwush the life out of as many enemy units as possible.

3) Once a sufficient number of dwagons are croaked (expect this step to be enacted before the ideal number is reached), allow Wanda's mount to croak, sending both it and Wanda plummeting towards the ground. With their status now changed to "falling", the barrier will not stop them. Ideally this step is undertaken with Wanda veiled as a lower value unit, so that the fall does not draw undue attention.

4) Once past the zone barrier, Wanda decrypts her mount and pulls herself out of her falling status. She is now riding a refreshed mount, albeit in an enemy-occupied zone.

5) Wanda casts mass decrypt, returning the fallen dwagons and archers to the fight, this time in a zone where they can do optimal damage.

6) Refresh the veil so that Wanda can provide her croakamancer bonus while hiding in the chaos. (Doubtful if Jack can do this over the barrier, but I wonder if he can keep an existing veil active.)

I know this strategy is stupid. The question is, would it work?
Last edited by Calemyr on Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby enthar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:20 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Because, since Erfworld is big bla-bla etc, and the tech level seems stable, surely by now a world dedicated to warfare and murder has discovered what murderous methods are possible at this tech level. Even if there are only a few smart and initiative-driven people. Earth works like that too.


I actually want to touch on this again. One of the ongoing threads being discussed is the notion that Erfworld has very poor communication of ideas between 'cultures' (sides). Which is why I made my point about experience. OUR military makes a point of finding out everything they can about how other people fight. Erfworld largely doesn't have that luxury.

Your point is that War is a good motivator for Innovation. That is true on our world, in general, but mostly because we take war Seriously because we like to think war is Rare. On Erfworld, peace is rare (or non-existent). War is the norm. Being a warlord is your day job, you go to work, hopefully survive, and come back home to sleep. No particular Shock to induce Change there.

My point being, that some people have no doubt done as you suggest, somewhere on Erf BUT even if true (somewhere on the plane, somewhen in time), there are few to no central repositories of institutional knowledge such as our militaries have. When a side dies, its the beginning of a local dark age- all their knowledge and experience is wiped out. New sides have to reinvent the wheel constantly, and very likely in parallel with everyone around them. Magic Kingdom and Charlie are the exceptions, due to presumed independence and neutrality preventing their random destruction. But most casters seem contemptuous of or just plain ignorant of "Warlord" knowledge, and Charlie charges schmuckers.

Thus, yes, nothing is new under the sun, but it is almost certainly new to the local knowledge cluster represented by your side and the sides you communicate with (through conflict, trade, etc.). And thus, even not terribly inventive strategies and tactics can form short term asymmetries in local conflicts and produce an arms race effect locally.

This is not a bug, but a feature. Other writers can play in the Erfworld sandbox without being Rob, and use this dynamic as an excuse for their own ignorance of the world and its units. We as readers can learn about the world in a limited way without reading 150 pages of monster manuals or tactical treatise. Sides can Ass Pull, even if that annoys people... a lot. Parson can leverage our worlds experience and cultural memory to look like a genius to the Erfworlders around him. Knowledge becomes Power, which is generally true but much more pointedly true in Erf.

Charlie is even more scary than he was before- he is a repository of knowledge. Getting involved in a lot of conflicts while maintaining only minimal risks (strictly to his units, not his side or that knowledge repository), by ranging all over the world or a good chunk of it, by simply TALKING with nearly every side that is aware of his existence... Charlie is REALLY well informed compared to most sides.

A bunch of random thoughts I had while writing that are not so germane to the discussion, so I hide them.
Spoiler: show
I make the following assumptions:
A typical Erfworld Warlord has access to the following:
Total knowledge of the units produced and/or used by their side (can directly see the stats)
Good knowledge of the units that his side fights (that is, all the local oppositions units)
- by good, i mean a general idea of move, attack, and defense in broad parameters, and any obvious specials like flight or natural mancy.
- does not include hidden or synergistic talents. Ansom specifically had to know to ask how to do the Dance Dance Revolution with the Archons, and was either wholly ignorant of, or contemptuous of the Archons anti-Foolamancy powers despite the presence of a Foolamancer on GK's side and thus a legitimate need for those powers.

May or may not know of the even the existence of other kinds of units, and thus have limited to no knowledge of their stats or abilities.

So this typical Warlord could legitimately be surprised when Charlie or his Archons do an Ass Pull on them, if they have never fought before. This despite the fact that one faction at a minimum on Erfworld knows Archons inside and out (double entendre left as an exercise to the reader, along with requisite giggle or beavis laugh).

I'm sure various sides have tried to disseminate some knowledge, at least internally to their warlords. Build up institutional memory and so forth. But when everyone and everything depops the instant your ruler is killed, its hard to hold that over or to even take it by force.

Parson started with total ignorance AND a host of incorrect and inherent assumptions about Erfworld. Parson has demonstrated a willingness to apply modern learning techniques (the scientific method or some variant evidence based system) to correcting this ignorance AND a willingness to discard previous assumptions when faced with evidence, two things that are not 100% common anywhere. He also is showing a talent, I believe, towards integrating his learning over time with tactics that he has used, developed, or learned over a lifetime of tactical wargaming. Fer instance- he knows that ambush and retreat tactics in our world are Older than Dirt, but he didn't know how to pull them off in Erf because of the pseudo turn based nature of the world. So he set about learning what he needed to know to pull off a version of ambush and retreat.

The summer updates has Parson and Jack trying to eliminate some of Parson's assumptions too. Parson was going very generic- Heavy Flier with such and such, not Dwagons. Thus, he can quickly apply broad categorical assumptions to a new unit, and then make decisions regarding it, and only really need to adjust to unique quirks if they exist and as they are revealed.

As to Erfworlders, some have a creative and adaptable side, some don't.
Ossomer seems both kinda Stupid and also wedded to some version of The Book. He knows how things are supposed to be done and has no interest in trying to change them. Ossomer would and was a terrible Chief Warlord, and GK should probably have left him in charge to make their lives much easier ;).
Ansom is also at least engaged to The Book, but has shown tactical flexibility (if not strategic flexibility). He is smart, but is/was blinded by arrogance which limits his ability to learn for other sources.
Vinny lacks the arrogance but also seems to need to be prodded into actually thinking- he smart but either lazy or incurious. However, once presented with a tactic he grasps its essential nature very quickly indeed, and if properly motivated could be threatening. Then again, I may be doing him an injustice- he is not a Chief Warlord and so his smarts and curiosity may be irrelevant most of the time due to politics and command authority.
Trammenis is still kind of unknown, but snippets we have gotten suggest that he is perfectly willing to throw out The Book (use heavies instead of Command led Infantry masses? unthinkable!) and to do so on his own initiative rather than being prompted to do. Trammenis is much much more dangerous an opponent than anyone else Parson has faced.
Jillian is a blunt object in search of a nail, has maybe two motivations, and can be led by the nose if you actually understand her. Jillian is only a threat to herself and her side, except when she has the backing of much nastier intelligences like the Don and Charlie. I might be biased there.
Sylvia is a red headed goddess of Rage and War, and I would not presume to judge her on such crude measures as intelligence or adaptability. :) :)
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby haviel » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:11 pm

This update is so confusing. It’s even confusing to describe why it’s confusing, but I’m gonna give it a shot, here go’s…

Parson starts talking about what happened earlier that day. "We were gaming a dwagon attack on a level 4 city today..." So he's talking about what happened Before Issue 1 started. Ok, but you really have to think for that to sink in. That didn’t occur to me at first. It would’ve been very helpful to mention something before reading on. This Klog is written after Issue 1 but he’s talking about an Event before Issue 1 which informed tactics he could use after issue 1…

Parson starts talking about gaming the sack of a Tower, like the tower of Jetstone. Plausible since they were trying to do just that before Jill ended their turn. Because it didn’t occur to me that all of this happened before issue 1 I get really confused because of Jack. Why is he there?

That means that he must have gone to the front lines by dwagon relay after gaming this with Parson. Fine, but nothing in the story mentions this at all. We would normally assume that since it wasn’t mention explicitly it didn’t happen, so if Jack’s there then Parsons Conversation with Jack must have happened in the past. We have to assume this for the update to make sense. I didn’t because I thought all of this was happening in the Present and not before Issue 1 started.

The facts get entangled by the confusing narrative and it makes you think that Parson is talking with Jack about saving Wanda off turn; instead of Sacking Jetstone by Air on their turn, before Jill did anything to change their plans.

Then the update ends mid-sentence, so there is no possibility to put it all in context through its own narrative. You need to pour over everything a few times before you finally get what was said. Then you have to assume that Jack was flown over to Jetstone by Dwagon relay before the assault on Jetstone, but on the same Turn.

To sum it all up: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:15 pm

splintermute wrote:Since they can't go from airspace to tower, the courtyard is the next best thing - the courtyard, tower and dungeons are all part of the garrison. If the garrison is treated as a unitary zone, then they can enter the tower via the courtyard.


That's a good point. The Klog that introduces the parts of "the Garrison zone" (note the singular), describes the Tower, Courtyard and Dungeon as three "parts", not sub-zones. It goes on to say that "Once units are in any part of the garrison, then they can attack any other part of the garrison." Absent an in-comic indication that the three parts of the Garrison are separate zones that cost movement to traverse, it seems likely that GK can land in the Courtyard and take the Tower (and Slately) from there.

We haven't seen any marbits with Trammenis, so if GK takes the Courtyard before he gets back, he would need to use siege (e.g., battle bears with dittomancer and dollamancer buffing) to get his non-flying forces into the Garrison.

This might end well for GK - with Slately croaking while Trammenis's units are in the city, so they will go neutral or be captured instead of disbanding, as in the original plan. Do neutral units still auto-attack and such? The relevant Klog says "We can do nothing until attacked" - but does that mean individually attacked, or that they can act collectively when the city is attacked? I doubt GK will be able to keep Trammenis's army out of the Courtyard while taking the Tower and Dungeon, and I think you need to control all three parts of the Garrison to take the city, so we may see neutral units in combat.

If Wanda does go down to the Courtyard, I predict that she will head for the Dungeon if the Magic Portal is there. It will look to Jetstone like she is trying to escape, but then she actually meets up with Sizemore, and Sizemore takes the Tower down, croaking Slately or making him easier to croak.

To balance to possibility that GK will actually get stronger from this, here's some long-term blatant speculation: Parson gets an un-garrison upgrade and more visibility and is captured by Jillian and becomes Faq's Chief Warlord. In return for giving up Parson, Charlie arranges a gobwin alliance for Jillian with the promise of a hobgobwin alliance when she attacks GK. She keeps the gobwins but then leaves GK's tunnels with Sizemore instead of trading Parson for the hobgobwins immediately, having learned some patience. She gets away with it vis-a-vis Charlie because she spins it as a retreat rather than a strategy. GK now has no tunneling units to mine gems and is forced to take the fight to Faq to win back Sizemore and/or the gobwins.

I'm also still attracted to the idea that Jack won't be able to cast after being decrypted, and Parson will shock everyone by still valuing him. Eventually, he levels as a warlord.

Also, I speculate that Wanda will turn into the equivalent of a lich if she is incapacitated while she has the pliers.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby warriortribble » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:22 pm

@haviel
Parson has been discussing tactics with Jack since this summer update. I'm guessing the klogs happened a few turns before the attack on the Radish Kingdom.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby haviel » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:28 pm

@warriortribble

Issue 2 page 1 "asked Jack to help me with the specifics about what you can and can't do when its not your turn" The Last page of Issue 1 has Parson sending a Thinkagram to Jack. So that Klog atleast happened in the Present. The next Klog happened in the past but is numbered "situation room notes 11"? Page 1 said "situation room notes 7" which was before page 2 but in the future? Did Parson number his notes backwards?
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby warriortribble » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:43 pm

haviel wrote:@warriortribble

Issue 2 page 1 "asked Jack to help me with the specifics about what you can and can't do when its not your turn" The Last page of Issue 1 has Parson sending a Thinkagram to Jack. So that Klog atleast happened in the Present. The next Klog happened in the past but is numbered "situation room notes 11"? Page 1 said "situation room notes 7" which was before page 2 but in the future? Did Parson number his notes backwards?
I'm guessing Parson wrote that in the past and is flipping through his notes right now. Or Issue 2 page 1 isn't chronological to the Issue 1 last page cause new chapters/issues like to jump around a bit on occasion. Either way, the end result seems the same. Although I do agree it does read a bit odd.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby haviel » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:00 pm

It's confusing because we have to guess these things. We're left guessing the time frame of the Klogs or/and How Jack got back to Jetstone (if I'm correct with the time frame.)
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 002

Postby Nihila » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:49 pm

Yes, it's confusing, but I intend to reserve judgement until I have read at least a few more pages of Issue Two. I think that these Klogs are from the summer update timeframe, before the attack on Jetstone.
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