Book 2 – Page 34

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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby gazes_also » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:49 pm

SteveMB wrote:
gazes_also wrote:Surprise and opportunity are the hard parts.

Surprise... and opportunity... and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Titans.... :lol:



I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby Francois Tremblay » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:07 pm

gazes_also wrote:the Parson fanboys


Technically, Parson IS the main character, so we're all "Parson fanboys."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby Altima » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:56 am

Francois Tremblay wrote:
gazes_also wrote:the Parson fanboys


Technically, Parson IS the main character, so we're all "Parson fanboys."


Not quite true. There are many sources of fiction in which the main character or characters are actually considered detrimental to the much more interesting interactions of the 'secondary' characters. Heck, in some video games the main character seems more or less incidental, such as games with silent protagonists.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:15 am

Altima wrote:
Francois Tremblay wrote:
gazes_also wrote:the Parson fanboys


Technically, Parson IS the main character, so we're all "Parson fanboys."


Not quite true. There are many sources of fiction in which the main character or characters are actually considered detrimental to the much more interesting interactions of the 'secondary' characters. Heck, in some video games the main character seems more or less incidental, such as games with silent protagonists.


Except of course for the fact that we know beyond any doubt that Parson *IS* the protagonist of this story. "Main character" isn't the right term. Parson Gotti is the Protagonist of the story.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:17 am

ftl wrote:If Parson pulls off something brilliant enough to win the battle and thus destroy Jetstone, that leaves GK back on the unstoppable train - once Jetstone's not there to stand up to them, they can steamroll, having now decrypted another army and possibly another caster (or several, now that they're going back to the city.)


Not necessarily true, if Jillian proves, using Ansom, that the Decrypted can be turned. That'd be a major game changer.

However, I don't expect Jetstone to be destroyed, but I expect Wanda and Jack (at the least) to survive and escape.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:37 am

DoctorJest wrote:
Altima wrote:
Francois Tremblay wrote:
Technically, Parson IS the main character, so we're all "Parson fanboys."


Not quite true. There are many sources of fiction in which the main character or characters are actually considered detrimental to the much more interesting interactions of the 'secondary' characters. Heck, in some video games the main character seems more or less incidental, such as games with silent protagonists.


Except of course for the fact that we know beyond any doubt that Parson *IS* the protagonist of this story. "Main character" isn't the right term. Parson Gotti is the Protagonist of the story.


The protagonist is not necessarily the hero of a story. Parson fanboys refers to those on the to whom Parson can do no wrong, never makes a mistake, can pull anything out of his ass he wishes as long as he wins. Those proposing the "Now Parson is back as CWL Jetstone is booped" line of argument. Personally I find he is one of the characters I am less likely to root for.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby splintermute » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:51 am

gazes_also wrote:The protagonist is not necessarily the hero of a story. Parson fanboys refers to those on the to whom Parson can do no wrong, never makes a mistake, can pull anything out of his ass he wishes as long as he wins. Those proposing the "Now Parson is back as CWL Jetstone is booped" line of argument. Personally I find he is one of the characters I am less likely to root for.

Who are you likely to root for? I think Tramennis, Caesar, and Sizemore are viable candidates. If you say Jillian, I will smack you.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:04 am

splintermute wrote:
gazes_also wrote:The protagonist is not necessarily the hero of a story. Parson fanboys refers to those on the to whom Parson can do no wrong, never makes a mistake, can pull anything out of his ass he wishes as long as he wins. Those proposing the "Now Parson is back as CWL Jetstone is booped" line of argument. Personally I find he is one of the characters I am less likely to root for.

Who are you likely to root for? I think Tramennis, Caesar, and Sizemore are viable candidates. If you say Jillian, I will smack you.


And I will smack you back.
Irrational hatred of Jillian is a sure sign of Parson-fanboyery.

Jillian absolutely, as the only character to have had any growth, development or fleshing out from book 1 to book 2.
Tram - ok but too early to say
Caesar - neh, Vinny yes
Sizemore. yes, in a Scotty performing miracles to save the Captain's bacon kind of way.
I also like that devious B@***** Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:11 am

gazes_also wrote:And I will smack you back.
Irrational hatred of Jillian is a sure sign of Parson-fanboyery.

Jillian absolutely, as the only character to have had any growth, development or fleshing out from book 1 to book 2.


Arright Sir/Madam/Entity, let's begin forum fisticuffs from behind semi-anonimity! Ya wanna piece o me?!

PS: Maggie. A lot less screen time. Quite a lot of fleshing out given that.

Also, Parson had a lot of development (growth is your-mileage-may-vary; but he certainly changed). Even Stanley has had cycles of development and regression. Etc.

Down with Jillian. Down with Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby CaesarVH » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:10 am

Is it just me or are you guys also wondering what Don wants to discuss with Slately? Haggar seems to be completely out of focus suddenly, wonder if boop can come flying from this direction? Towards either parson or his former allies.. He has reason to believe the Jetstones hired Charlie to make them take the bulk damage of GKs troops before Jetstone destroyed the remaining GK forces, maybe joining up with their enemies would me a suitable revenge? Especially made possible with Parson as new CW (easier to talk to than devoted toolist decrypted Ansom) mind control dust can also still come of use if they manage to start parley with jetstone?
Last edited by CaesarVH on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby CaesarVH » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:12 am

gazes_also wrote:
SteveMB wrote:
gazes_also wrote:Surprise and opportunity are the hard parts.

Surprise... and opportunity... and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Titans.... :lol:



I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition...


NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSM ... tube_gdata
never gets old=)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:29 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
gazes_also wrote:And I will smack you back.
Irrational hatred of Jillian is a sure sign of Parson-fanboyery.

Jillian absolutely, as the only character to have had any growth, development or fleshing out from book 1 to book 2.


Arright Sir/Madam/Entity, let's begin forum fisticuffs from behind semi-anonimity! Ya wanna piece o me?!

PS: Maggie. A lot less screen time. Quite a lot of fleshing out given that.

Also, Parson had a lot of development (growth is your-mileage-may-vary; but he certainly changed). Even Stanley has had cycles of development and regression. Etc.

Down with Jillian. Down with Jillian.


Ok let's have at it

Parson is essentially a Stranger in a Strange Land, trying to learn and adapt to an alien environment in order to survive, as such his growth has been externally driven. The closest literary analogy I can think of for him is Kurtz in "Heart of Darkness". A 'civilized' man thrust into a world of savages who rationalizes that the only way to succeed is to become more savage than the savages, ultimately destroys himself.

Parson's role is as a prime mover or a catalyst. Just by being there he is changing Erfworld, and what is interesting in the story is how native Erfworlders react and adapt to their changing world. that's what has made Jack, Sizemore and Maggie interesting, how they react to this alien way of thinking. Stanley ignores and ridicules it and if Parson succeeds he got lucky, that makes him a clown.
Parson is the Ultimate Mary Sue - he stands for all the gamers who wished they could get out of their mothers' basement and actually get into the game they play.

Jillian has developed through her own choices. She could have rejected Don's offer, but now as a Queen she has realized that she has choices she didn't have as a mercenary, she gets to pick and choose where, when, who and how she fights, and when she stops fighting.
What is really, really interesting is that she has also realized that others have choices too, even if they don't realize it. Every battle we have seen her in since the end of book 1 begins with her giving the opponent the option not to fight - Jitterati, Wanda, Ansom. Their reaction has been to see this as weakness and laugh at her, but she gave them the choice and clearly put the options before them.
Not bad for an "Id on legs". If her natural reaction is to smash and she is constantly battling it within, then this self control is even more impressive.
With Tramennis too she pointed that he too has choices, listening to and obeying his father is not compulsory.

Parson challenges the status quo on Erfworld simply by being there, what's really interesting is watching a native popped Erfer challenge the assumptions of her own world and her own instincts.

End Turn. Your move.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby build6 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:41 am

Zak3056 wrote:
Django wrote:Is it just me or does Bunny look really hot in that last panel. A kingdom could well be lost for that woman...

Was this the face that launched a thousand bats, and burnt the topless towers of Transelvito?


heh, another one

anyways, does it strike anybody that Don MUST find it preferable for Wanda to be croaked and the pliers in Royal hands, and that he's saying all that stuff because he cannot admit in front of everybody that Caesar was right and he was wrong? So he's deliberately "looking at the bright side of things"?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby HTB » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:43 pm

gazes_also wrote: Obvious troll is obvious.


Mah head asplode from WTF overdose.

Rather than spending time to refute your rather, if I may say so, rather shaky argument, I would advise simple ignoring this poster until he or she leaves.

Nah, I'll do it anyways.

First off, comparing things to great works of literature does not make you intelligent. Just to get that out of the way. :roll:

Now, your comparison to Kurtz is interesting, but implies that Parson is rationalizing the atrocities he is committing. Where as we have all seen he deeply regrets his actions, and in the act of throwing away the SoR, he rejected not only his 'savage' side, but the very idea that violence is the only answer. In fact, while Kurtz ultimately destroyed himself, you might say Parson has saved himself and those around him.

Now, the next part I partially agree with, at least in the idea of a catalyst. But what you apparently fail to realize is that catalyst are almost always necessary for any sort of story. Had he not been summoned, GK would have fallen, and Stanley would have been killed. Which would mean no Arkentools, but a boopload more Stasis. Without any unequal forces, nothing happens or gains progress. I don't like your analysis of Stanley as a clown, simply because he is insecure. I fact, considering his origins, it makes a lot of sense. He was a lowly soldier, with no special traits until he Attuned. Thusly why he clings so tightly to the 'Titanic Mandate'; he's got nothing else. He's unsure of himself, and he takes it out on others. He is a deeply human character, not a 'clown'

Now, as for Parson being a Mary Sue; I must disagree with this as well. His life sucked before he was summoned, but it still sucks now. Sure, he's a military commander in a tabletop wargame, but that means he's under constant threat of attack. He makes mistakes, and he still has many, many gaps in his knowledge. Unlike Sues, he isn't 'lol uber power', he can't instantly learn things, and people don't instantly like him. But he works at it. If hard work, well, working makes you a Mary Sue, then I'd say about two-thirds the population suffers from Sueness.

Also, the whole Gamers in Basements thing is a tired old cliche, and I reject it. Boop off.

As for Jillian, well... I never liked her to begin with, but she is, in her own right, a decent character. But what I believe my fellows dislike is the fact that she can simply walk/fly up to anyone and they'll be all 'oh wow, your so great, lets listen to you even though we have no actual reason to besides your "amazing" charm/signamancy'.

Also, Id on legs is stupid anyways. But she's still very flawed. And that's great. That's wonderful. That is absolutely fantastic.

You people seem to have trouble with any character that's not amazing at everything, but what you don't realize is your just projecting yourself onto them. Flawed characters can be beautiful both because of and in spite of their flaws.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby Lamech » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:48 pm

What is really, really interesting is that she has also realized that others have choices too, even if they don't realize it. Every battle we have seen her in since the end of book 1 begins with her giving the opponent the option not to fight - Jitterati, Wanda, Ansom. Their reaction has been to see this as weakness and laugh at her, but she gave them the choice and clearly put the options before them.
Not bad for an "Id on legs". If her natural reaction is to smash and she is constantly battling it within, then this self control is even more impressive.
With Tramennis too she pointed that he too has choices, listening to and obeying his father is not compulsory.
No she really hasn't been. She attacked one of Jitteri's cities with out any sort of discussion, and then the second one she gave the natural allies the choice to turn (unless Charlie took that away), but Jitteri? No. Also giving the natural allies the chance to turn was Charlie's idea not Jillians.

When she met up with Wanda she gave the choice of "turn". And when Wanda wasn't agreeable to that right away, but agrees to turn after taking the garrison; Jillian agrees. So guess what? Wanda chose NOT to fight. But Jillian attacked anyway. I suppose you could argue that Wanda technically did have a choice, but Jillian just didn't honor it.

Ansom... I guess if you consider "pick a meaning" a offer to turn to Jillian's side and not fight then he did get a choice. But even then it was a very poorly offered one and the meaning was very unclear.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:51 pm

HTB wrote:
gazes_also wrote: Obvious troll is obvious.



Rule number 1 - get your attributions right.
Normally I wouldn't care, but I have NEVER accused anyone here of being a troll and am greatly offended by the inference.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:55 pm

gazes_also wrote:Jillian has developed through her own choices. She could have rejected Don's offer, but now as a Queen she has realized that she has choices she didn't have as a mercenary, she gets to pick and choose where, when, who and how she fights, and when she stops fighting.


The words "Jillian" and "choices" do not belong into the same sentence. Jillian dithers and tries to avoid final decisions. It took very special circumstances until she choose Ansom over Wanda over the lake. And now, in book 2 she again refuses to finally choose between Ansom and Wanda; she just leaves Wanda back and hope someone else will do the dirty work. And yes, she could theoretically refused Don's offer. But it was Don who took initiative and and presented her that choice, rather than Jillian coming up with something her own. And her choice was apparently heavily influenced by her royal programming and her hate for Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:47 pm

gazes_also wrote:The protagonist is not necessarily the hero of a story.


By definition, however, it's the person you're supposed to feel the most empathy for and root for.

Parson fanboys refers to those on the to whom Parson can do no wrong, never makes a mistake, can pull anything out of his ass he wishes as long as he wins. Those proposing the "Now Parson is back as CWL Jetstone is booped" line of argument. .


We've seen Parson do wrong and make mistakes more than once. Parson is interesting, however, because he tends to exploit the rules of Erfworld, which is forcing Erfworld to change. Now that he's CW, he's going to do something unexpected that is going to severely challenge (and change) Jetstone because that's what Parson does.

I think, however, his goals have changed from "conquer Spacerock" to "Help Wanda and co. escape". I don't believe Spacerock is going to be conquered any time soon.

Personally I find he is one of the characters I am less likely to root for


Why?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:54 pm

build6 wrote:
Zak3056 wrote:
Django wrote:Is it just me or does Bunny look really hot in that last panel. A kingdom could well be lost for that woman...

Was this the face that launched a thousand bats, and burnt the topless towers of Transelvito?


heh, another one

anyways, does it strike anybody that Don MUST find it preferable for Wanda to be croaked and the pliers in Royal hands, and that he's saying all that stuff because he cannot admit in front of everybody that Caesar was right and he was wrong? So he's deliberately "looking at the bright side of things"?


It's that, yes, but it's also he's driving a point home: Jillian is Royal and Caesar (largely) is not, so Caesar has no right to question her. Royalty has become very important to Don and he's banking very heavily on the simple "fact" (as he sees it) that Royalty rules via divine mandate.

Regardless of how he personally feels about Jillian's decisions (or lack thereof) he's got to stand by her otherwise it would shake his entire worldview. If Jillian is wrong, then Royalty is not superior, and Royalty being superior is what Don has, suddenly, become all about.

Don's sudden conversion to Royalism, too, is a sign of a man who is terrified of what it may mean if non-royals are in fact just as capable as royals at being leaders. He's investing in Jillian to prove to everyone, including himself, that Royality still has the blessings of the Titans. He's as much a True Believer in his own world view as Wanda is (although, I think Don's faith is maybe not quite as strong as he'd like it to be)

So his defense of Jillian's choices to Caesar is more than just saving face. It's a very public display of Faith. He NEEDS Jillian to be right.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 34

Postby Geordy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:06 pm

gazes_also wrote:End Turn. Your move.

Gazes, Im more of an ally here so it is still our turn. :D

I agree that one doesnt necessarily have to identify with Parson. But I have other reasons than you say you have. Basically you are saying that Parson is more of on empty character doing hardly more than merely observing the course of events. This is not true. Parson is actually forming the world by his actions, he can turn the tide and influences his surroundings just as much as or even more as any other character in this story. So no, he is not like the silent alter ego in Dragon Age, he is a valuable fully drawn-out personality.

And yes, the author is offering him to be the obvious choice to identify with. He is from our world, he likes gaming and most importantly is able to look at Erfworld from a distance, just like us. So in most situations we as the reader have similar thoughts like him.

Still I refuse to identify with him, from the pool of characters participating I would definitely not choose him to impersonate. Why? Because he was summoned to the evil guys.

Therefor my hero is called by the name of Trammenis. Being the funny sidekick at first he evolved into a somewhat self-aware Erfworlder, cunning, fully equipped with a Code of Honor/Nobilty, fighting for what is just and right. These attributes (most important the fact that he is beginning to grasp the bigger whole) makes him destined to be Parsons next adversary. Id really like to see that - a lawful honorable mastermind vs. the gamer that leaves no stone unturned and exploits any game mechanic be it an atrocity or not in order to win.

Imagine right before the conflict cumulates into a spectacular peak it will be discovered that the whole war is just a subplot to the bigger thing - the unification of the four Arcentools. The journey Wanda seems to be on. Maybe Parson is going to pull another trick to win the war, combines the arcentools in the process... and then calls yet an even bigger evil over the world threatening all life. And so the two (three, four..?) sides have to overcome their differences to prevent Armageddon from happening.
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