Book 2 – Text Updates 025

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby StClair » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:37 pm

effataigus wrote:Seems to me that any time an author, GM, or movie director mentions a glass barrier in the upper half of a room one of two things is going to happen: someone is going to fall through that barrier or someone is going to jump kick through that barrier.

This.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Lor » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:59 pm

fruityjanitor wrote:
Radagast wrote:Nice play on Spaceballs.

Although I'm sad that they didn't actually take potshots at him! Obviously they have something more sinister planned? :twisted:


I can't wait for Spacerock: the cereal, Spacerock: the action figure, and Spacerock: the flamethrower!


That would be the fully spelled-up tower.

The just-popped love that one.
Sir Cedric: Delayed? How so?
Wamba: Well, when I heard Normans were approaching I ran to lock up my wife. But, she'd also heard they were approaching, and locked me up instead.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Altima » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:17 am

fruityjanitor wrote:
Radagast wrote:Nice play on Spaceballs.

Although I'm sad that they didn't actually take potshots at him! Obviously they have something more sinister planned? :twisted:


I can't wait for Spacerock: the cereal, Spacerock: the action figure, and Spacerock: the flamethrower!


Don't forget Spacerock: The Toilet Paper.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby DevilDan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:14 am

fruityjanitor wrote:I can't wait for Spacerock: the cereal, Spacerock: the action figure, and Spacerock: the flamethrower!


Kids love this one.

On another note: Aargh, I can't wait for this comic to stop being obsessed with Jillian. Why do they keep talking about her! Oh. Wait...
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby NoDesignation » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:01 am

A lot of folks are speculating on the heavies going into the atrium and I want to point out a related bit of foreshadowing I picked up. As satisfying as finishing off a helpless foe can be, it's never smart to put off taking out the real threat first. If you can see a checkmate available, don't screw around capturing pawns.

For a variety of reason (Jillian, Hagar, Charlie) they ended up heading over to the GK ground force first, even though the real threat is the dwagon strike force. After Jillian left and Trem decided to wipe out the remaining ground forces I was wondering if it might be taken as a lesson that he shouldn't have been cocky and focused on the dwagons first (because we know that one way or another Jetstone is not going to win the day like they imagine they will). And he specifically decided to send in the heavies and ground units because he thought they'd be the least needed units for the fight with the dwagons.

Well, now I'm guessing it's going to turn out that the heavies and other ground units are going to play a significant role in the upcoming fight. And the fact that many are wounded and hurt will only make it that much easier for shattering glass, battlecrap, and falling dwagon corpses to flatten them out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:27 am

NoDesignation wrote:A lot of folks are speculating on the heavies going into the atrium and I want to point out a related bit of foreshadowing I picked up. As satisfying as finishing off a helpless foe can be, it's never smart to put off taking out the real threat first. If you can see a checkmate available, don't screw around capturing pawns.

For a variety of reason (Jillian, Hagar, Charlie) they ended up heading over to the GK ground force first, even though the real threat is the dwagon strike force. After Jillian left and Trem decided to wipe out the remaining ground forces I was wondering if it might be taken as a lesson that he shouldn't have been cocky and focused on the dwagons first (because we know that one way or another Jetstone is not going to win the day like they imagine they will). And he specifically decided to send in the heavies and ground units because he thought they'd be the least needed units for the fight with the dwagons.

Well, now I'm guessing it's going to turn out that the heavies and other ground units are going to play a significant role in the upcoming fight. And the fact that many are wounded and hurt will only make it that much easier for shattering glass, battlecrap, and falling dwagon corpses to flatten them out.


Uh, no.

Tram sent the ground troops and heavies against the ground force for two reasons. 1) To save the archers for the fight against the dwagons 2) to get some easy XP and levelling for his ground troops and level 1 warlords. If this does go to the ground, his infantry is now tougher than they would have been than if they'd come straight back to Spacerock.

The cocky move would have been to have left an intact column within striking distance of the capital that he couldn't come back to and deal with within the turn. That could potentially tip the balance if the battle goes badly and goes into to a second turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby raphfrk » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:43 am

ftl wrote:In the case of Jetstone, they'd already BE under attack. So they wouldn't freeze while GK is still in Spacerock. GK would have to escape Spacerock alive (which is their objective anyway).


It is unclear how command and control would operate in that situation. Would Tremenis still be chief warlord. He might just be 1 warlord out of many since Jetstone the side would have ended with Slately,

Also, what happens if he holds the city from the attack, can he declare himself the new Ruler, does he become a barbarian, or does the city just re-freeze.

MonteCristo wrote:Unless i missed one, it could be possible that "heir" and "chief warlord" are related titles... as in, while a side normally gets to choose the chief warlord, if they have an Heir, then the Heir AUTOMATICALLY the chief warlord... Stanely, Caesar, Jillian, Haggar, Ossomer and Ansom, all seemed to play the role of both chief warlord and heir. if this is the case, then this would be the reason why Trem does not get to be heir as opposed to his brothers; it's because he's not well suited for battle.


Parson is chief warlord but not Heir. I think it might be a loyalty thing. Maybe Heirs get a penalty to loyalty, while Chief warlords get a bonus.

granted, it is actually possible that it's the case that an heir can only be named when the heir-to-be is IN the capitol... So you could name a new heir if it's off turn, but only if that heir is in the capitol, which Trem was not... But that's just overthinking... the important thing is, is that it is Jetstone's turn and Trem is going to see his father


I think that is likely, Slately should promote Tremenis to Heir immediately. This allows them present two targets. For as long as Jetstone has no Heir, Slately is a very high priority target. If an Heir is available, then there is less incentive to kill him.

gazes_also wrote:Tram sent the ground troops and heavies against the ground force for two reasons. 1) To save the archers for the fight against the dwagons 2) to get some easy XP and levelling for his ground troops and level 1 warlords. If this does go to the ground, his infantry is now tougher than they would have been than if they'd come straight back to Spacerock.


Well, they will be stronger after they have healed. A wounded level 2 is not necessarily stronger than a healed level 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Thalnawr » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:47 pm

raphfrk wrote:Well, they will be stronger after they have healed. A wounded level 2 is not necessarily stronger than a healed level 1.

They do happen to have both a Healomancer and Dollamancer, so these troops could very well be healed up for whatever juice or scrolls it takes to accomplish this.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:11 pm

raphfrk wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Unless i missed one, it could be possible that "heir" and "chief warlord" are related titles... as in, while a side normally gets to choose the chief warlord, if they have an Heir, then the Heir AUTOMATICALLY the chief warlord... Stanely, Caesar, Jillian, Haggar, Ossomer and Ansom, all seemed to play the role of both chief warlord and heir. if this is the case, then this would be the reason why Trem does not get to be heir as opposed to his brothers; it's because he's not well suited for battle.


Parson is chief warlord but not Heir. I think it might be a loyalty thing. Maybe Heirs get a penalty to loyalty, while Chief warlords get a bonus.

You missed an important point in my statement... namely that i did say a side normally gets to CHOOSE their chief warlord (parson, decrypted ansom, Duncan), but IF they have an heir then they no longer get to choose and the heir must be the chief warlord (Caesar, Jillian, Ansom, Ossomer, Haggar)..

joosy wrote:Also, what happens if he holds the city from the attack, can he declare himself the new Ruler, does he become a barbarian, or does the city just re-freeze.

If he does not get promoted to heir... then i don't think it matters if he wins or looses... the whole city and himself freeze
We have the 'Chekhov's Gun" of the other capitol side for Jetstone mentioned as well. Since it IS Jetstone's turn it probably makes sense to take the time to name Trammenis as heir, so that he can live to fight another day. (assuming naming heirs can only be done during your own turn). I consider it a little foreshadowing of Jetstone having to retreat to their old capitol. Trammennis is too valuable a character as a Jetstone champion than be wasted as a decrypted slave so my guess is he survives.

That's what i thought at first aswell...
Though it might also turn out to be the case that some barbarian heir, or former ruler that lost their capitol and side or something, may end up taking that secoond jetstone captiol site in order to get back into the game...
Or who knows, maybe somewhere down the line, someone like trem might think it would be benefitial to have another ruler/side that's allied with jetstone and thus use the site to set up a new side...

Though i still see the fall of spacerock and a retreat to the old capitol as the most likely possibility
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Xenon » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:56 pm

considering what ive heard so far, i would say the only logical move for jetstone at this point is to move the king and his personal bodyguard to the second capital location for safety. that way, even if everything goes wrong their side does not fall.

i suspect parson is having the dragons hold fire until the optimum number of targets are directly below for maximum casualties- he will have done an analysis on his bracer already to know when that is.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby multilis » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:53 pm

Xenon wrote:considering what ive heard so far, i would say the only logical move for jetstone at this point is to move the king and his personal bodyguard to the second capital location for safety. that way, even if everything goes wrong their side does not fall.

i suspect parson is having the dragons hold fire until the optimum number of targets are directly below for maximum casualties- he will have done an analysis on his bracer already to know when that is.

It may take more than 1 turns move to go to second capital, and it can be much more risky to be in field, while your capital is sacked, and you "can't take your treasury with you".

My guess is Parson needs situation where he can *decrypt* any targets killed in such a way as to steamroll, which is tricky as you need to split up enemy so you can decrypt them faster then enemy can kill. Jetstone is already splitting army, only leaving archers in open.

In any situation where enemy melee units can reach your archers, you want a blocking set of melee units to protect archers... Trem does not know that enemy melee can reach his archers.

Alternative plan to steamroll converting enemy units would be a suicidal rush to kill the king and thus end the side, which may require King in open. If that happens Trem may still be able to hide in Garrison/Atrium, to be rescued by Charlie right before GK's next turn. (Turn order first thing in morning: Charlie, GK, others)

***

IMO the defensive power of Atrium is very important, and big question is which side will need it, most likely Trem will, but possible GK can fall into it to take it when Trem sends out forces to deal with the first surprises.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:16 pm

multilis wrote:
Xenon wrote:considering what ive heard so far, i would say the only logical move for jetstone at this point is to move the king and his personal bodyguard to the second capital location for safety. that way, even if everything goes wrong their side does not fall.

i suspect parson is having the dragons hold fire until the optimum number of targets are directly below for maximum casualties- he will have done an analysis on his bracer already to know when that is.

It may take more than 1 turns move to go to second capital, and it can be much more risky to be in field, while your capital is sacked, and you "can't take your treasury with you".

My guess is Parson needs situation where he can *decrypt* any targets killed in such a way as to steamroll, which is tricky as you need to split up enemy so you can decrypt them faster then enemy can kill. Jetstone is already splitting army, only leaving archers in open.

In any situation where enemy melee units can reach your archers, you want a blocking set of melee units to protect archers... Trem does not know that enemy melee can reach his archers.

Alternative plan to steamroll converting enemy units would be a suicidal rush to kill the king and thus end the side, which may require King in open. If that happens Trem may still be able to hide in Garrison/Atrium, to be rescued by Charlie right before GK's next turn. (Turn order first thing in morning: Charlie, GK, others)

***

IMO the defensive power of Atrium is very important, and big question is which side will need it, most likely Trem will, but possible GK can fall into it to take it when Trem sends out forces to deal with the first surprises.


There will be no troops in the open for anything to land on.
The archers...he supposed he would split them between Outer Walls and Garrison at first.


If they didn't more the king out when the attacking force was on the way, why would they move him out now when the enemy is at their mercy?

I just don't buy the idea of a full scale counter attack on JS's turn, it's about survival.
GK is in a form of siege and the objective is to make JS unable or unwilling to eliminate them before the end of the turn.

If Charlie is going to sweep in and rescue Tramennis, why nor sweep in and eliminate Wanda and crew? He has significant forces in the battlespace.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:35 pm

gazes_also wrote:
multilis wrote:
Xenon wrote:If Charlie is going to sweep in and rescue Tramennis, why nor sweep in and eliminate Wanda and crew? He has significant forces in the battlespace.


Hmm, no he doesn't. He had a few archons and those were captured by the rockers. Charile isn't the commander of an endless archon swarm. He may have some hundred archons in total but those are spread thin to keep him informed of events and keep money coming in with mercenary work.

Plus Wanda has dozens of dwagons backed up by dozens of warlords (at least two very high level), a foolmancer and archons of her own. Charlie would not only need a massive amount of archons to take that down but he would take fat losses. Much better to let some other dude to do the hard work for him.

Sure three archons once defeated a couple dozen dwagons...but that time Charlie had two elite warlords, one artifact and a mary sue leading them and the dwagons were literally on their last points with two crappy warlords as their only back up.

So, no an army of archons will not materialize out of thin air and zerg rush Wanda because simply that's not how Charlie works.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby effataigus » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:15 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:
Hmm, no he doesn't. He had a few archons and those were captured by the rockers. Charile isn't the commander of an endless archon swarm. He may have some hundred archons in total but those are spread thin to keep him informed of events and keep money coming in with mercenary work.

Plus Wanda has dozens of dwagons backed up by dozens of warlords (at least two very high level), a foolmancer and archons of her own. Charlie would not only need a massive amount of archons to take that down but he would take fat losses. Much better to let some other dude to do the hard work for him.

Sure three archons once defeated a couple dozen dwagons...but that time Charlie had two elite warlords, one artifact and a mary sue leading them and the dwagons were literally on their last points with two crappy warlords as their only back up.

So, no an army of archons will not materialize out of thin air and zerg rush Wanda because simply that's not how Charlie works.


Charlie does indeed have lots of duders around: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-20.png

He is certainly not going to drop the air force himself, but it seems pretty likely that he'll use Archons to bully the bedraggled few that survive the night.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:33 pm

effataigus wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:
Hmm, no he doesn't. He had a few archons and those were captured by the rockers. Charile isn't the commander of an endless archon swarm. He may have some hundred archons in total but those are spread thin to keep him informed of events and keep money coming in with mercenary work.

Plus Wanda has dozens of dwagons backed up by dozens of warlords (at least two very high level), a foolmancer and archons of her own. Charlie would not only need a massive amount of archons to take that down but he would take fat losses. Much better to let some other dude to do the hard work for him.

Sure three archons once defeated a couple dozen dwagons...but that time Charlie had two elite warlords, one artifact and a mary sue leading them and the dwagons were literally on their last points with two crappy warlords as their only back up.

So, no an army of archons will not materialize out of thin air and zerg rush Wanda because simply that's not how Charlie works.


Charlie does indeed have lots of duders around: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-20.png

He is certainly not going to drop the air force himself, but it seems pretty likely that he'll use Archons to bully the bedraggled few that survive the night.


Thank you I was trying to locate that quote. If any of the leaders survive, Charlie picks them up the following morning.

For those who want something really nasty to happen, how about this scenario:
Given that Tram's specialties include anti-treachery, which implies he's not above it himself.

He calls Wanda in for a parley, makes sure that it really is her and she really has the Archenpliers in her hand, and then...

Has the B!?<h shot in the eye.

You want nasty, that would be nasty.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Altima » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:34 pm

If Charlie had the forces to take the Arkenpliers, he would have already done so. One of the reasons he dealt with Jillian was because he didn't, or couldn't, move the forces in.

It's possible it's not even Charlie's turn anymore, and any Archons he used to attack Wanda's stack would probably be offed by Jetstone, and he'd lose the pliers and any good-will he had cultivated anyway.

Kinda makes you feel sorry for people like Parson and Charlie--they spend more time trying to get the idiots to see what's in their best interest than anything else.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Pointyleaf » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:56 pm

Orca wrote:Dunno if anyone's mentioned it, but Tremennis rides a mount which leaves the ground with every step.


Well, notably, Ansom attacked zombie ground units (on the wall) from the air (his carpet). This was when he was trying to open up a "weak spot" on the wall, just before Wanda zerged him. So, it seems that some amount of air->ground action can take place.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:01 pm

Pointyleaf wrote:Well, notably, Ansom attacked zombie ground units (on the wall) from the air (his carpet). This was when he was trying to open up a "weak spot" on the wall, just before Wanda zerged him. So, it seems that some amount of air->ground action can take place.


That was during Ansom's turn, however.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Orca » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:16 pm

Anson attacked on his turn; I was thinking that this might allow the dwagon force to attack Tremennis off-turn. Say, after an unsuccessful parley.

It might never happen. But Tremennis seems to want to ask some questions, possibly privately which might make him vulnerable despite his precautions.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:45 pm

Altima wrote:If Charlie had the forces to take the Arkenpliers, he would have already done so. One of the reasons he dealt with Jillian was because he didn't, or couldn't, move the forces in.

It's possible it's not even Charlie's turn anymore, and any Archons he used to attack Wanda's stack would probably be offed by Jetstone, and he'd lose the pliers and any good-will he had cultivated anyway.

Kinda makes you feel sorry for people like Parson and Charlie--they spend more time trying to get the idiots to see what's in their best interest than anything else.


Charlie's turn comes first the next day.
As long as he didn't attack any JS units he could swoop into their air-space, grab Wanda and be gone, and they couldn't do a thing about it.
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