Book 2 – Text Updates 025

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Lamech » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:40 pm

Charlie's turn comes first the next day.
As long as he didn't attack any JS units he could swoop into their air-space, grab Wanda and be gone, and they couldn't do a thing about it.
Err... No JS could send up every last air unit, fire every single arrow, fire every remaining spell defense and blast every drop of juice. They probably won't have any of those things, except some token air units. Also if Wanda's on the ground...

Finally, depending on how much power GK has left they may not be able to capture Wanda. Archons shockamancy apperantly won't stun the most powerful units, and they won't be able to simply blast away with out risking Wanda. Nor can they target her dwagon. They can't attempt a disarm or they lose the pliers. Capturing her will be a pain. And every fallen unit becomes a GK unit. Extra fun.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby NoDesignation » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:50 am

gazes_also wrote:Uh, no.

Tram sent the ground troops and heavies against the ground force for two reasons. 1) To save the archers for the fight against the dwagons 2) to get some easy XP and levelling for his ground troops and level 1 warlords. If this does go to the ground, his infantry is now tougher than they would have been than if they'd come straight back to Spacerock.

The cocky move would have been to have left an intact column within striking distance of the capital that he couldn't come back to and deal with within the turn. That could potentially tip the balance if the battle goes badly and goes into to a second turn.


I'm not saying that you ignore the column (although it's far from "intact" after Haggar softened it up and Jillian took out the chief warlord), it's simply a matter of priorities. Which one do you hit first? And if it's not possible to take out both, would you rather be left with the intact strike force of flyers ready to take down the tower (or flee with an arkentool on mounts with high move) or the softened column with second rate leadership to bang on your walls (and without as much move to run away)?

As for sending the heavies in once they committed to finishing off the column, certainly that was a good tactical choice given what they knew at the time. However I'm not giving analysis as a tactician, but as a writer. We can expect that Wanda's strike force will not simply be eliminated. Due to Parson's involvement, we can expect that they will still win somehow. However, it's better that Parson is seen as smart and not simply unbeatable. Having an option that could have won the day for Jetstone which they missed is a good way to do that. What possible mistakes could Jetstone have made? Attacking the column first. How could that possibly impact the upcoming fight? By leaving their ground forces wounded and easier to take out.

Higher levels typically mean higher hit point totals, higher attack and defense, and so forth. The higher attack is of marginal benefit because they can't reach the flyers. Higher hit point totals are irrelevant for any troops not at full health (and any at full health would likely have not fought enough to level up). And higher defense is unlikely to make them harder to kill than if they were at full health. I'd wager it would take less of a bombardment to wipe out a wounded and higher level group than a full health and lower level group. Remember how easily Jillian took out the group of wounded dwagons in book one?

Thalnawr wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Well, they will be stronger after they have healed. A wounded level 2 is not necessarily stronger than a healed level 1.

They do happen to have both a Healomancer and Dollamancer, so these troops could very well be healed up for whatever juice or scrolls it takes to accomplish this.


Jetstone has no reason to think that the ground troops will be of any use in the upcoming fight. Tramennis himself refers to them as "nonessential units." Why on earth would they waste juice or scrolls on units that the don't expect will see battle? Hypothetically, they could heal them, but they won't.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby splintermute » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:37 am

NoDesignation wrote:I'm not saying that you ignore the column (although it's far from "intact" after Haggar softened it up and Jillian took out the chief warlord), it's simply a matter of priorities. Which one do you hit first? And if it's not possible to take out both, would you rather be left with the intact strike force of flyers ready to take down the tower (or flee with an arkentool on mounts with high move) or the softened column with second rate leadership to bang on your walls (and without as much move to run away)?

The point is, from their perspective it was possible to take out both this turn, and since they had sufficient move to attack the column and then return to the city, but not the other way around, they did the prudent thing. They're aware of what GK is capable of, and knew that the best tactic is to act while they have the initiative. If they had waited until next turn, the column could have retreated to safety (if it's an infantry vs. infantry race, assuming they have identical move, JS would never be able to catch up, since GK moves first), or GK could have dwagon-relayed in a ton of warlords. GK isn't stupid enough to send largely unled infantry stacks to "bang on their walls".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:53 am

My predictions

Comic Page 035: Trem in the throne room. Slately officially makes him heir. (Personally i think a good wild card move would be to make the governor of the old capital heir, but that won't happen.) We see the dittomancer and Cubbins the hatamancer standing by, we might also discover whether or not the brown cloaked officials are clerics. If they are, there will be formal blessings, but either way, there will be a solemn ceremony. There will probably be some discussion of what to do concerning Wanda and Oss. But there will be very little about the parley, that's just The Way It's Done. Parley Phase comes before Combat Phase, even if all you do is blow raspberries. The call from Don will come in during this event. Don and Slately will reinforce each other's confidence and sketch out some tentative plans for a royal rennaisance after GK is destroyed.

Text Update 026: Parley. Trem starts talking to Wanda and/or Oss. Suddenly Parson bursts into his head. Trem is surprised by the intellectual power confronting him, and then a little exhilarated at the challenge. He learns nothing specific but does acquire a sense of anxiety. But now it's time to attack. Or maybe Parson's defensive attack ploy catches him off guard.

Comic Pages 036-7: It takes a double length entry to do justice to the violence and intensity! Dragons fall! Archers shoot! The dead rise and switch sides! Chekov's Glass Ceiling is broken! Strategems are played! Slately reveals the secret meaning of the royal radish when his face turns deep red! Wanda drops some more cryptic hints! Sylvia and Oss make out as they fall to their dusting!

Text Update 27: Stanley is unconscious, having accidently brained himself with the Hammer. How could that happen? Maggie just shrugs. Parson now has until the beginning of GK's next turn to redeploy and, assuming it was even the slightest loss, or for that matter an unexploitable win, spin the results to mollify Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:24 am

Lamech wrote:
Charlie's turn comes first the next day.
As long as he didn't attack any JS units he could swoop into their air-space, grab Wanda and be gone, and they couldn't do a thing about it.
Err... No JS could send up every last air unit, fire every single arrow, fire every remaining spell defense and blast every drop of juice. They probably won't have any of those things, except some token air units. Also if Wanda's on the ground...

Finally, depending on how much power GK has left they may not be able to capture Wanda. Archons shockamancy apperantly won't stun the most powerful units, and they won't be able to simply blast away with out risking Wanda. Nor can they target her dwagon. They can't attempt a disarm or they lose the pliers. Capturing her will be a pain. And every fallen unit becomes a GK unit. Extra fun.


Why would Tramennis attack units from a side he knows is partnered with one of his allies? My friend's friend is my friend?

We have seen Archons bring a net when they went to capture Parson. We have seen Archons disintegrate a dwagon out from under Wanda.
Spread a big net under her, zap the all the dwagons simultaneously - bingo.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby davesnothere » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:21 am

gazes_also wrote:[We have seen Archons bring a net when they went to capture Parson. We have seen Archons disintegrate a dwagon out from under Wanda.
Spread a big net under her, zap the all the dwagons simultaneously - bingo.


No, they zapped an uncroaked Unipegataur. And Wanda's staff (she didn't have the pliers yet) protected her person from the blast.
It didn't protect her from the resulting fall.

It's possible that Wanda still has personal protection(s) from magical attacks, but it does suck to have your flight platform shot out from under you.
Parson's trick is going to find a way to get troops on the ground unhurt.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:31 pm

Clearly their is one-sure fire path to victory:
Feather Fall.

Why would Tramennis attack units from a side he knows is partnered with one of his allies? My friend's friend is my friend?
Jillian said that he isn't trusted? Tram has every reason to believe Charlie is up to no good. Especially if he doesn't get a heads-up. And Charlie is far smarter than Stanley, Tram might prefer the pliers stay in Stanley's hands. Or he might see the chance to make a quick grab. If Wanda's disarmed they get the pliers back.

We have seen Archons bring a net when they went to capture Parson. We have seen Archons disintegrate a dwagon out from under Wanda.
Spread a big net under her, zap the all the dwagons simultaneously - bingo.
Uncroaked unipegatur. A heck of a lot more fragile then an dwagon. Also note all the net carrying archons will have to deal with the dwagons, archons and the caster before they can get under Wanda. Or you know, Wanda could sit two inches above the ground. Or toss the pliers when she's falling. Or drop them like she dropped her staff http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F121.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby NoDesignation » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:42 pm

splintermute wrote:The point is, from their perspective it was possible to take out both this turn, and since they had sufficient move to attack the column and then return to the city, but not the other way around...


Really, I didn't catch anything specifying that move was a limiting factor here. We know the GK column has a move of 18+, so presumably the Jetstone group is about that. It's reasonable to think they could go a a hex or two from the bridge to the column, a few back to the city, and a few more back to the column if need be. The Jetstone camp appears to be right outside city walls, and we know that hex boundary extends to the bridge. The column goes back a few hexes, but probably not more than six, and there is adequate move to go six hexes away from the city, come in six hexes, and go back out six hexes again. They are right outside the city when their turn starts.

But regardless of what the distance is, it's irrelevant. If they have the move to hit both targets in one turn, which they obviously do, then they could still do so if they hit the targets in opposite order. Tramennis did not have to accompany Hagar and Jillian to the column. Going into the city at the beginning of their turn would only add two hexes to the ground they have to travel. If they want to be in the city at the end of the turn, they could travel 8+ hexes out and back. If they are okay being out of the city as long as all hostile forces are eliminated, they could move 17+ hexes out.

Tramennis himself advocated this strategy, in page 24 he said, "But attacking the ground forces strikes me as something akin to having a beast in a headlock, and deciding to cut off it's tail." And he also knew at that time that Jillian would be unwilling to help him fight Wanda before or after taking on the column. My prediction is simply that he is going to regret having listened to Jillian and wished he went with his original plan.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:12 pm

NoDesignation wrote:
splintermute wrote:The point is, from their perspective it was possible to take out both this turn, and since they had sufficient move to attack the column and then return to the city, but not the other way around...


Really, I didn't catch anything specifying that move was a limiting factor here. We know the GK column has a move of 18+, so presumably the Jetstone group is about that. It's reasonable to think they could go a a hex or two from the bridge to the column, a few back to the city, and a few more back to the column if need be. The Jetstone camp appears to be right outside city walls, and we know that hex boundary extends to the bridge. The column goes back a few hexes, but probably not more than six, and there is adequate move to go six hexes away from the city, come in six hexes, and go back out six hexes again. They are right outside the city when their turn starts.

But regardless of what the distance is, it's irrelevant. If they have the move to hit both targets in one turn, which they obviously do, then they could still do so if they hit the targets in opposite order. Tramennis did not have to accompany Hagar and Jillian to the column. Going into the city at the beginning of their turn would only add two hexes to the ground they have to travel. If they want to be in the city at the end of the turn, they could travel 8+ hexes out and back. If they are okay being out of the city as long as all hostile forces are eliminated, they could move 17+ hexes out.

Tramennis himself advocated this strategy, in page 24 he said, "But attacking the ground forces strikes me as something akin to having a beast in a headlock, and deciding to cut off it's tail." And he also knew at that time that Jillian would be unwilling to help him fight Wanda before or after taking on the column. My prediction is simply that he is going to regret having listened to Jillian and wished he went with his original plan.


Page 24 is before Haggar's intervention and the taking of Ansom. The column looked much more formidable then and basically it was a choice whether to defend the city or attack the column with the CWL, they were unlikely to succeed at both. After it had been gutted by Haggar and Faq the column was little more than a warm up. Why waste move which may turn out to be useful by making a double trip when it is possible to eliminate both with one? They dealt with what was in front of them with little waste of move, energy or resources. It was the logical, economical action.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:00 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:Sylvia and Oss make out as they fall to their dusting!


Is that an illustration request? Cause I just pledged to AlexeiP (see this) that I will draw something Erf-related by the end of the week and post it here. But I have an idea of my own already.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby effataigus » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:14 pm

Lamech wrote:Uncroaked unipegatur. A heck of a lot more fragile then an dwagon. Also note all the net carrying archons will have to deal with the dwagons, archons and the caster before they can get under Wanda. Or you know, Wanda could sit two inches above the ground. Or toss the pliers when she's falling. Or drop them like she dropped her staff http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F121.jpg


I'll wade in to this just to mention that the original poster probably just mixed up instances. Archons have disintegrated uncroaked Unipegs out from under Wanda and disintegrated wounded dragons in one shot... admittedly they have never disintegrated healthy dragons out from under Wanda.

If Wanda survives the night in the airspace I'm putting my money on her mount (assuming it's not the carpet) being messed up. Come dawn I can imagine Charlie's "veiled" "significant forces" doing all kinds of mischief. They could possibly even capture Wanda and the pliers without offending JS simply because JS's alternative would be Wanda getting her turn after Charlescomm.

Regarding the land battle, given what they knew about Faq and Hagar's willingness to fight in various engagements and JS's apparent assumption that the flying column cannot land, killing the ground troops in the order that they did makes tactical sense to me. The law of plot parsimony suggests that this will come back to haunt JS though... Ford's speech and Wrigely's sacrifice would be irrelevant if GK doesn't find a way to finish off some of those torn-up teddy bears and turn them on their makers.

Or perhaps Tram's dying words will be "If... I... only had... one more... level 2 warlord... to send in..."
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:Sylvia and Oss make out as they fall to their dusting!


Is that an illustration request?


It is now...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby NoDesignation » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:22 pm

gazes_also wrote:Page 24 is before Haggar's intervention and the taking of Ansom. The column looked much more formidable then and basically it was a choice whether to defend the city or attack the column with the CWL, they were unlikely to succeed at both. After it had been gutted by Haggar and Faq the column was little more than a warm up. Why waste move which may turn out to be useful by making a double trip when it is possible to eliminate both with one? They dealt with what was in front of them with little waste of move, energy or resources. It was the logical, economical action.


Again, no argument here that it is logical and economical to attack the column along with the others, I'm only saying the he will regret doing so. The logical, economical action can still be the wrong choice. The predictions I'm making are based on story arc and writing mechanisms as much or more than strategical concerns. It may have been a logical move, but Tramennis doesn't know that he's in a webcomic, nor does he know that he isn't the main character. From our perspective as readers we can make predictions taking into account a much wider range of information than Tramennis can.

It's similar to like Ansom's decision not to attack when he first reached Gobwin Knob but instead send troops into the tunnels was logical based on the information he had at the time, yet he did eventually regret having made that decision.

(As a side note: why waste move going back and forth? Because there's no downside, they don't have anywhere else they plan on going to, right? And because you want to face the greatest threat (and greatest prize) with all available resources. Not to mention they have no clue what would happen if Jetstone recaptured the pliers. Perhaps the entire column of infantry would turn to Jetstone's side. And to deny GK time to think and strategize. And while you might be able to find alternative reasons you find to be more compelling, keep in mind that stories don't always choose the most likely, most predictable outcome. Jetstone may think they have won the day, but we as readers knew that wouldn't be the case the whole time.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:26 pm

effataigus wrote: The law of plot parsimony suggests that this will come back to haunt JS though... Ford's speech and Wrigely's sacrifice would be irrelevant if GK doesn't find a way to finish off some of those torn-up teddy bears and turn them on their makers.


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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby DevilDan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:52 pm

gazes_also wrote:
effataigus wrote: The law of plot parsimony suggests that this will come back to haunt JS though... Ford's speech and Wrigely's sacrifice would be irrelevant if GK doesn't find a way to finish off some of those torn-up teddy bears and turn them on their makers.


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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Squishalot » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:12 am

Has anyone put any thought into considering how much 'pure magic' offense Jetstone really have at their disposal? Unless they're hiring from the Magic Kingdom, they have a Healomancer, a Dittomancer, a Dollamancer and a Hatmancer, none of which strike me as particularly offensive units. No Shockmancy, no Croakamancy, unless they have a lot of scrolls at their disposal.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby splintermute » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:35 am

DevilDan wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
effataigus wrote: The law of plot parsimony suggests that this will come back to haunt JS though... Ford's speech and Wrigely's sacrifice would be irrelevant if GK doesn't find a way to finish off some of those torn-up teddy bears and turn them on their makers.


Not everything is plot, not everything is foreshadowing, sometimes it's just colour.


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Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby robak » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:07 am

If you want to argue plotwise, it might still be posititve for JS to have destroyed the column: After the boop hits the fan and Wanda survives, at least the column is mopped up, which plotwise means that GK is not as much of a steamroller as it was before.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby Lamech » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:44 am

Squishalot wrote:Has anyone put any thought into considering how much 'pure magic' offense Jetstone really have at their disposal? Unless they're hiring from the Magic Kingdom, they have a Healomancer, a Dittomancer, a Dollamancer and a Hatmancer, none of which strike me as particularly offensive units. No Shockmancy, no Croakamancy, unless they have a lot of scrolls at their disposal.
The hatomancer can almost certainly pull something out of his hat. Probably a Voom. Ditto for the dittomancer obviously. The healomancer can probably restore juice or something, and the dollamancer probably can use Voodoo dolls. Also some games I have played have put life steal and healing in the same catagory. Also I think quite a few people have been offended by the dittomancer.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 025

Postby gazes_also » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:01 pm

Lamech wrote:
Squishalot wrote:Has anyone put any thought into considering how much 'pure magic' offense Jetstone really have at their disposal? Unless they're hiring from the Magic Kingdom, they have a Healomancer, a Dittomancer, a Dollamancer and a Hatmancer, none of which strike me as particularly offensive units. No Shockmancy, no Croakamancy, unless they have a lot of scrolls at their disposal.
The hatomancer can almost certainly pull something out of his hat. Probably a Voom. Ditto for the dittomancer obviously. The healomancer can probably restore juice or something, and the dollamancer probably can use Voodoo dolls. Also some games I have played have put life steal and healing in the same catagory. Also I think quite a few people have been offended by the dittomancer.


They are more resource-and-materiel-oriented rather that strike-force-oriented casters
If Wanda goes with Jack' s plan of decrypting croaked unit as they fall, and the dittomancer doubles the arrows, that seems like a push. (I did think the double double on the arrows at the bridge was a bit much)
The steal life thing makes sense, the healomancer could either heal or dispatch wounded units regardless of side.
Could the dollamancer make flying golems? Sew wings on some some battlebears?
How about the hatomancer making the pliers disappear from Wanda's hand and appear in his hat? That would be quite a rabbit to pull out.
It does say that the tower does have magic defenses which could be purchased spells rather than home-grown ones, so anything is possible there.
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