Book 2 – Page 35

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby The Black Hand » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:01 pm

splintermute wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
robak wrote:
Somehow I got a feeling that Charlie doesn't have a portal to the MK. Or if he does (maybe he needs it to hire a turnamancer for Archon-production?), it is heavily guarded.


Charlie is known as an excellent employer in TMK, so it can safely be assumed that he has a portal. I've made this argument before that only aligned and casters hired by a side can pass through that side's portal and it is in the interests of TMK to enforce that rule absolutely to maintain it's neutrality. All portals may, in fact, be property of TMK and leased to the sides.

I think casters can enter any portal, or maybe any allied portal, TO the Magic Kingdom, but I don't think they can take any portal FROM the MK other than portals belonging to their own side (otherwise portals become dangerous vulnerabilities in capitals, or just means of exploiting movement rules between allied sides). This is most likely an inherent property of portals, rather than something enforced by the MK, because where you have enforcement, you have the possibility of selective enforcement and loopholes. The only exception we've seen so far is Parson, who may or may not be a caster - we have no idea what he is, exactly - whereas Bea was destroyed by mere contact with the portal, rather than passing through and being blasted by MK security, which suggests that the regulation of who's allowed to pass through is inherent to the portals.


Actually, Parson is a caster, and - if I read the page correctly - we know what type too. According to what Janis says in this page of TBfGK, he's a Hippiemancer (of all things).
The strength of our future lies in our past.
-VNV Nation

There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare.
-Sun-tzu, The Art of War
The Black Hand
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:20 pm

The Black Hand wrote:Actually, Parson is a caster, and - if I read the page correctly - we know what type too. According to what Janis says in this page of TBfGK, he's a Hippiemancer (of all things).


Oh no! Lets not get into this quagmire!

It's a quagmire because many on this forum think it was a throwaway line from Janis to protect him and prevent him from being croaked - she could have been speaking metaphorically ("he's a hippiemancer because he will break this world and bring a new order") or just straight-up lying to protect him (who's going to question a Grand Abbie about whether someone she says is a hippiemancer actually is?).
ftl
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby raphfrk » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:28 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:Also, the overlord can now designate a successor. After enough uninterrupted generations of that kind of succession, the lineage becomes noble and still later, royal.


While this is reasonable, this isn't canon.

Also, it doesn't explain how you can have nobles as well as royals from the same side. Maybe the longer a side maintains a city, the higher the rank of warlords popped there. Caesar was popped in a small city and so is only a lord.

However, I think that it would be reasonable that sides must slowly upgrade to Royal.
raphfrk
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:38 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:43 pm

splintermute wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
robak wrote:
Somehow I got a feeling that Charlie doesn't have a portal to the MK. Or if he does (maybe he needs it to hire a turnamancer for Archon-production?), it is heavily guarded.


Charlie is known as an excellent employer in TMK, so it can safely be assumed that he has a portal. I've made this argument before that only aligned and casters hired by a side can pass through that side's portal and it is in the interests of TMK to enforce that rule absolutely to maintain it's neutrality. All portals may, in fact, be property of TMK and leased to the sides.

I think casters can enter any portal, or maybe any allied portal, TO the Magic Kingdom, but I don't think they can take any portal FROM the MK other than portals belonging to their own side (otherwise portals become dangerous vulnerabilities in capitals, or just means of exploiting movement rules between allied sides). This is most likely an inherent property of portals, rather than something enforced by the MK, because where you have enforcement, you have the possibility of selective enforcement and loopholes. The only exception we've seen so far is Parson, who may or may not be a caster - we have no idea what he is, exactly - whereas Bea was destroyed by mere contact with the portal, rather than passing through and being blasted by MK security, which suggests that the regulation of who's allowed to pass through is inherent to the portals.


That's what I mean by absolute enforcement, it's not something that anyone decides, it is inherent in the portals.
Portals can only be used to move between a city and TMK by casters who are either popped in that side or hired by that side (there may be an exception for non-aligned casters on MK business) There is no need to guard portals because it is not possible for foreign caster to pass through.
There are 2 reasons, - one mechanical; it costs zero move therefore it is impossible to go anywhere else other than where you came from.
The second is political; if even for one instance TMK allowed alien casters to use a portal to enter a city - for example, an invisible ninja hit squad of foolamancers and shookamancers, then every side in Erfworld would destroy their portal as just being too dangerous and TMK would be cut off (especially the side that hired the hit squad). For the portals to exist there has to be absolute trust that the system cannot be abused even by TMK if they needed to.

However I do think it's a possibility there are portals outside the cities, to allow casters to travel freely to Erfworld, barbarians to contact TMK and allow barbarian casters to get to TMK. The location of these would be a closely guarded secret.

Edit.
On the Parson being a caster. It is empirically proven that he is a caster because he could enter TMK. The problem for the casters there would be that he is a non-Erfworld caster and therefore an alien who slipped through a loophole in portal defense.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:08 pm

On the Parson being a caster. It is empirically proven that he is a caster because he could enter TMK. The problem for the casters there would be that he is a non-Erfworld caster and therefore an alien who slipped through a loophole in portal defense.
Naw. We don't know how the portal works, and depending on the technical details of its functioning, it might or might not allow a non-caster Parson in. Also we don't know how easy it is to disband Parson or look at his stats.
Process 1) The portals scans everyones stats and if these stats come back as a non-caster then it disbands them.
Process 2) The portals scans everyones stats and if these stats do not come back as caster then it disbands them.

With process one Parson could survive if, he could not be disbanded, he was a caster AND could be scanned, or the portal could not scan him.
With process two Parson could survive if either, he could not be disbanded, or he was a caster AND could be scanned.
Since Parson's stats could not be seen even with the trimancer table it seems likely his stats are simply unscannable and also its very possible he is undisbandable, seeing as how Stanley was saying at one point Parson should have disbanded.

one mechanical; it costs zero move therefore it is impossible to go anywhere else other than where you came from.
There are turnamancy exceptions to such restrictions. Its a kingdom of casters so not really a problem.
Portals can only be used to move between a city and TMK by casters who are either popped in that side or hired by that side (there may be an exception for non-aligned casters on MK business) There is no need to guard portals because it is not possible for foreign caster to pass through.
This is almost certainly the case otherwise Parson would probably be leading a expedition right now. In fact he could probably just have Sizemore walk in and wreck everything before leaving. I wouldn't be surprised if the MK allowed themselves to use the portals for MK business though; like to smite sides that plan on betraying them.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:50 pm

splintermute wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:I still maintain my theory. Yes, we are told that royal only comes from royal, but remember, the erflings don't have full knowledge of how the world works and it could be that they think of the event of a side becoming royal as a miracle.

I disagree - Erflings may not have a complete understanding of how the world works, but they do have a historical record (GK had libraries). The records may just be an unhelpful list of high scores instead of actual useful battle reports, but presumably they reference historical battles, and probably collectively, if not individually, would allow one to trace the history of Erf sides back to the time of the Titans.


Sure, but how many have done that?
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
User avatar
Dr Pepper
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:41 pm
Location: santa maria, ca

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:53 pm

Lamech wrote:
On the Parson being a caster. It is empirically proven that he is a caster because he could enter TMK. The problem for the casters there would be that he is a non-Erfworld caster and therefore an alien who slipped through a loophole in portal defense.

Naw. We don't know how the portal works, and depending on the technical details of its functioning, it might or might not allow a non-caster Parson in. Also we don't know how easy it is to disband Parson or look at his stats.
Process 1) The portals scans everyones stats and if these stats come back as a non-caster then it disbands them.
Process 2) The portals scans everyones stats and if these stats do not come back as caster then it disbands them.

With process one Parson could survive if, he could not be disbanded, he was a caster AND could be scanned, or the portal could not scan him.
With process two Parson could survive if either, he could not be disbanded, or he was a caster AND could be scanned.
Since Parson's stats could not be seen even with the trimancer table it seems likely his stats are simply unscannable and also its very possible he is undisbandable, seeing as how Stanley was saying at one point Parson should have disbanded.


You are correct, I should have been more specific. With in the TMK's frame of reference he has not been proven not to be a caster, and must therefore be empirically considered to be a caster.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby build6 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:00 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
splintermute wrote:would allow one to trace the history of Erf sides back to the time of the Titans.

Sure, but how many have done that?


it'd seem to be not something of any value, so I'd think, yeah, there'd be pretty few, if any. I mean, again, if their purpose (as complained about non-stop by Tramennis, Janis, Sizemore etc.) is to fight and die etc., AND units are popped "fully aware" and can see "stats" etc., then what's the use of spending effort to learn "history"?

gazes_also wrote:On the Parson being a caster. It is empirically proven that he is a caster because he could enter TMK. The problem for the casters there would be that he is a non-Erfworld caster and therefore an alien who slipped through a loophole in portal defense.


agreed. it's strange to be a caster who can't cast any spells, though.

hrm, or is it that the portal doesn't fry him not because he's a caster, but because he's not an Erfworld non-caster? (i.e. the portals aren't set to "allow casters", but to "zap stabbers and golems and bats and ... ")

I guess we'll only really know if Janis gets to talk more about how she knows he's a hippiemancer...

raphfrk wrote:However, I think that it would be reasonable that sides must slowly upgrade to Royal.


this can't be right - if you can "become" Royal, then what is the issue slately etc. have with non-Royals? It's not very "royal" if other people can just become one. I mean, yes in this world you just need to kill enough people to put yourself on a big chair which you call a throne and then put a couple of pounds of gold on your head, but is that really how it works on Erf? Do we know anything canon about the origins of Royalty?
build6
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:07 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby splintermute » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:06 pm

gazes_also wrote:The second is political; if even for one instance TMK allowed alien casters to use a portal to enter a city - for example, an invisible ninja hit squad of foolamancers and shookamancers, then every side in Erfworld would destroy their portal as just being too dangerous and TMK would be cut off (especially the side that hired the hit squad).

Technically, you might never find out about a ninja hit squad - if they were always successful (assuming you always targeted a ruler), the target side would freeze/disband, and no one would find out that way. The side that hired the hit squad would be unlikely to reveal the tactic to anyone else - there would probably be severe financial constraints on such an action, perhaps bankrupting the hiring side's treasury; and the hiring side would most likely destroy their portal to prevent the tactic being used against them - both actions that would severely weaken them and leave them easy pickings for nearby sides (perhaps the MK might let slip to the hirer's neighbors that the hirer was particularly vulnerable just then). There might actually be tons of sides hiring ninja hit squads, and then being eradicated shortly thereafter, each dying believing they're the first ones ever to come up with the idea.

Of course, if it were possible for casters to leave the MK through any portal, the thinkamancers and hat magicians would want to keep it under wraps. Right now, they seem to have a monopoly on long range communications, and can charge exorbitant amounts (that's where most of Charlie's income comes from), but if sides without hat mages and thinkamancers can instantly send whatever casters they actually do have over to allied sides to deliver messages and borrow a cup of sugar, demand for thinkagrams and messenger hats would decline precipitously.
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Carne » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:20 pm

gazes_also wrote:You are correct, I should have been more specific. With in the TMK's frame of reference he has not been proven not to be a caster, and must therefore be empirically considered to be a caster.


Disagreed. The portals may be set to admit casters and specials, and destroy everything else. No-one knows about the special setting, since Parson is apparently the first special unit to manifest in Erfworld (that we're aware of).

The only thing which will empirically prove Parson to be an actual caster is for him to cast. This might be difficult. One major difficulty is his (and everyone else's) lack of knowledge about whether he even has juice, or at what levels they might be. This might be because he lacks the correct senses to identify it, or it might be that he has none (and is probably not actually a caster in that case, or he is and the special attribute plays a part in it somehow).
Carne
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 7:02 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:55 pm

splintermute wrote:
gazes_also wrote:The second is political; if even for one instance TMK allowed alien casters to use a portal to enter a city - for example, an invisible ninja hit squad of foolamancers and shookamancers, then every side in Erfworld would destroy their portal as just being too dangerous and TMK would be cut off (especially the side that hired the hit squad).

Technically, you might never find out about a ninja hit squad - if they were always successful (assuming you always targeted a ruler), the target side would freeze/disband, and no one would find out that way. The side that hired the hit squad would be unlikely to reveal the tactic to anyone else - there would probably be severe financial constraints on such an action, perhaps bankrupting the hiring side's treasury; and the hiring side would most likely destroy their portal to prevent the tactic being used against them - both actions that would severely weaken them and leave them easy pickings for nearby sides (perhaps the MK might let slip to the hirer's neighbors that the hirer was particularly vulnerable just then). There might actually be tons of sides hiring ninja hit squads, and then being eradicated shortly thereafter, each dying believing they're the first ones ever to come up with the idea.

the problem with that is that aligned casters can come and go freely to the Magic Kingdom, so word is going to get out, as once they know of the risk a side would destroy its portal and pretty quickly every portal into a capital would be gone. Too much of a risk for TMK to completely destroy it's trade with Erfworld.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby raphfrk » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:06 pm

build6 wrote:
raphfrk wrote:However, I think that it would be reasonable that sides must slowly upgrade to Royal.


this can't be right - if you can "become" Royal, then what is the issue slately etc. have with non-Royals? It's not very "royal" if other people can just become one.


Well, the process I was thinking was something like:

Royal sides have a Royal Ruler and Noble sides have a Noble Ruler.

Noble sides can pop Noble warlords/Heirs at the capital and standard warlords at all other cities.

Royal sides can pop Royal warlords/Heirs at the capital and Noble warlords at all other cities.

After 10 Rulers at one level, the next Heir it pops will be upgraded. So, the first Heir that the 10th Overlord pops would be a Noble Heir.

If all Royals die, then that line dies and it needs to have 10 new Noble Rulers to get the "pop Royal Heir" build option. Similarly, if all Nobles (and Royals) die, it needs 10 new Overlords to get the "build Noble Heir" build option.

The Hyatt Regency might have a Noble Ruler and a Royal Heir.

The reason that Royals see royalty as important is that it requires history. It is not possible to create a 10 Noble Ruler chain using an exploit. It would require 10 Rulers to commit suicide for the good of the side.

The sides that have lasted longest are given upgraded units from the Titans and they interpret that to mean that the Titans want them to rule.
raphfrk
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:38 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Swodaems » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:28 pm

In response to everybody wondering if casters could attack from the magic kingdom, I would like to bring up a rule we learned long ago in book 1.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F098a.jpg
Garrison - can only be attacked with total control over one of the other zones.

I think this rule by itself would prevent any attacks from the magic kingdoms under normal circumstances. However I think we can safely say these are not normal circumstances. When Jillian left, she effectively gave control of the city's airspace over to Wanda. We don't know exactly how this rule works yet, but I can see a couple means of exploiting it. ( Biggest question: Will any held zone do or do you actually need to hold the zone you're attacking from? As food for thought, also ask: If a city doesn't have a tunnel zone, can a dirtamancer give you a tunnel zone?)
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:12 pm

With in the TMK's frame of reference he has not been proven not to be a caster, and must therefore be empirically considered to be a caster.
The MK with all most certainly assume him to be a caster. What are the other possibilities? He has super-foolamancy that no one has ever heard of and no one can detect? With GK's foolamancer long gone? He can't be disbanded like every other unit ever? They have no reason to believe that; it would be a utterly inane assumption to make with their knowledge. Is that what your saying? (If it is I agree completely.)
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:06 pm

Lamech wrote:
With in the TMK's frame of reference he has not been proven not to be a caster, and must therefore be empirically considered to be a caster.
The MK with all most certainly assume him to be a caster. What are the other possibilities? He has super-foolamancy that no one has ever heard of and no one can detect? With GK's foolamancer long gone? He can't be disbanded like every other unit ever? They have no reason to believe that; it would be a utterly inane assumption to make with their knowledge. Is that what your saying? (If it is I agree completely.)


That's exactly what I am saying. for the Casters of the Magic Kingdom there is no logical option other than that he is a caster, because he is not not a caster.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and passes through a magic portal like a duck, there is no logical conclusion other than it is a duckamancer.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:10 pm

gazes_also wrote:
That's exactly what I am saying. for the Casters of the Magic Kingdom there is no logical option other than that he is a caster, because he is not not a caster.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and passes through a magic portal like a duck, there is no logical conclusion other than it is a duckamancer.


Except that's the thing - he doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck. He doesn't cast spells or use scrolls or make magic items. He grants a leadership bonus, which casters do not.

If it doesn't walk like a duck, it doesn't quack like a duck, but still swims like a duck, what it it - a duck with some not-duck features, or a not-duck which can swim like a duck?
ftl
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:18 pm

Lamech wrote:
With in the TMK's frame of reference he has not been proven not to be a caster, and must therefore be empirically considered to be a caster.
The MK with all most certainly assume him to be a caster. What are the other possibilities? He has super-foolamancy that no one has ever heard of and no one can detect? With GK's foolamancer long gone? He can't be disbanded like every other unit ever? They have no reason to believe that; it would be a utterly inane assumption to make with their knowledge. Is that what your saying? (If it is I agree completely.)


Various people in the MK will come to different conclusions.

Fact: we have never seen Parson cast a spell. Casters can cast spells. (However, it's of course POSSIBLE that he's still a caster - casters don't HAVE to cast.)
Fact: Parson grants a leadership bonus. Casters do not grant leadership bonuses, though they can lead troops. (However, it's perhaps possible that he's a weird caster that still grants a leadership bonus - he's done strange things.)

These would lead everyone in the MK to assume he's not a caster.

Fact: Janis SAID he was a hippiemancer. (However, it's possible for her to be lying to protect him.)
Fact: He made it through the MK portal without disbanding. (However, perhaps he's 'special' in that he can't be disbanded by such means.)

These would lead everyone in the MK to assume he's a caster.

So there's two possibilities. EITHER he's a caster with some decidedly un-caster-like properties (leadership bonus, has no indication that he can cast spells, is also a Warlord) OR he's a warlord with the strange property of not being disbanded by the portal. (Maybe can't be disbanded in general, maybe just the portal for some reason.)

Actually, I can think of a third possibility, which is that he's sort of half-caster half-warlord, with some capabilities of both - hence he gets a crappy leadership bonus (because he's half of a warlord, rule-wise) and he can pass through the portal ('cuz he's part-caster) and he has a very unusual mind (because he can think sort of like a warlord and sort of like a caster - and we already know that Casters have their own unique ways of looking at the world, as we've seen from Jack and Maggie).

Perhaps there's others. But, regardless of what they assume, they KNOW he's a one-of-a-kind thing, and whatever they assume leads to at least one claim that, by itself, nobody can believe. (A caster that gives a leadership bonus? A Warlord that can't be disbanded? Both are unheard of.)
ftl
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby robak » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:17 am

Perhaps it isn't the portals that disband non-casters, but it's in fact the guard squad in the portal park. You know, the dozen or so casters we saw, ready to blast Parson, because he didn't look like a caster. And maybe hippiemancers have a special ability to make people believe any BS they want?
robak
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:31 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby splintermute » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:03 am

robak wrote:Perhaps it isn't the portals that disband non-casters, but it's in fact the guard squad in the portal park. You know, the dozen or so casters we saw, ready to blast Parson, because he didn't look like a caster. And maybe hippiemancers have a special ability to make people believe any BS they want?

If it was the guard squad, they would have blasted Parson instantly, the way Bea was destroyed the moment she touched the portal. That's why we're assuming it's not the guard squad, but the portals themselves.

ftl wrote:Fact: we have never seen Parson cast a spell. Casters can cast spells. (However, it's of course POSSIBLE that he's still a caster - casters don't HAVE to cast.)

Casters do not necessarily cast spells - what they do is expend juice. There are apparently magic disciplines in which you can be a caster and never cast a spell (e.g. croakamancy - if they only uncroak, healomancy - if they only heal, moneymancy - if they only convert gems to schmuckers, dollamancy - if they only create golems and make items, etc.). In Klog 1, Parson distinguishes between juice spending and spellcasting - there are several juice expenditures that don't seem to qualify as spells. I don't know what the actual distinction is - the logical distinction would be that spellcasting can only occur on your turn, whereas juice expenditure can occur anytime, but then Parson categorizes Thinkagrams and Lookamancy as spells instead of juice expenditure.

Also, it's unclear what the distinction between a non-spellcasting caster and a non-caster juice-using unit (e.g. archons, western giants) actually is. We've never actually seen archons or giants try to enter the MK - perhaps they can, and all the portals do is destroy anyone without juice who tries to pass through. That would explain the guard squad - they're there to deal with the non-caster juice users that manage to make it through - if the portals are sufficient to destroy all non-casters, the guard squad would be unnecessary.
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:57 pm

How do casters normally find out what their specialty is, I wonder? Eh, they're probably just born knowing. Or do others read this in their stats?
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 0beron, arbo and 13 guests