Book 2 – Page 35

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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:03 pm

DevilDan wrote:How do casters normally find out what their specialty is, I wonder? Eh, they're probably just born knowing. Or do others read this in their stats?


Units are popped knowing everything they need to know to function. Warlords can immediately go and lead stacks into battle as soon as they pop without reading up on military history. It's probably the same with casters - they'll just know what to do. Remember, Erfworld has no childhood and, mostly, no need for any learning.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:03 pm

ftl wrote:
DevilDan wrote:How do casters normally find out what their specialty is, I wonder? Eh, they're probably just born knowing. Or do others read this in their stats?


Units are popped knowing everything they need to know to function. Warlords can immediately go and lead stacks into battle as soon as they pop without reading up on military history. It's probably the same with casters - they'll just know what to do. Remember, Erfworld has no childhood and, mostly, no need for any learning.

Yeah, guess I'm looking for complications where there are none.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby splintermute » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:05 pm

ftl wrote:
DevilDan wrote:How do casters normally find out what their specialty is, I wonder? Eh, they're probably just born knowing. Or do others read this in their stats?


Units are popped knowing everything they need to know to function. Warlords can immediately go and lead stacks into battle as soon as they pop without reading up on military history. It's probably the same with casters - they'll just know what to do. Remember, Erfworld has no childhood and, mostly, no need for any learning.

Maybe not - when Maggie linked Wanda and Sizemore, she asked them to think about how it felt to first cast within their discipline. Maybe there are lots of casters like Wanda that can cast outside their discipline, and they keep experimenting until they find a type of magic that feels "right"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:31 pm

splintermute wrote:Maybe not - when Maggie linked Wanda and Sizemore, she asked them to think about how it felt to first cast within their discipline. Maybe there are lots of casters like Wanda that can cast outside their discipline, and they keep experimenting until they find a type of magic that feels "right"


I'm not convinced. "Remember what it felt like to first cast within your discipline" means just that - remember the first time. It doesn't mean that it took experimentation with other disciplines to find the right one, just that "your" discipline feels different from the others that aren't your natural one.

The clarification might be necessary because it's not necessarily true that the first spell you cast will be in your discipline - after all, if casters can cast from other disciplines, a newly popped caster can do so too. (The clarification between "your first spell" and "your first spell in your discipline" might have been most necessary for Wanda - she popped in Faq, and there was no croakamancy to be done for quite some time, so her first spell was possibly something else.)

(OOH! HARE-BRAINED THEORY IDEA!!!! Remember when Jack said how talent creates its own demand? That his talent demanded that he put fake dwagons in the sky, just like Parson's talent led him to lead and croak huge armies even though he doesn't want to... what if the same is true for Wanda? There was no croakamancy to be done in peaceful FAQ, so another motivation for her to stage an attack on FAQ was to have an excuse to uncroak things to use her talents. ...pay no attention to the arkentool behind the curtain...)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Altima » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:01 pm

ftl wrote:
Except that's the thing - he doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck. He doesn't cast spells or use scrolls or make magic items. He grants a leadership bonus, which casters do not.

If it doesn't walk like a duck, it doesn't quack like a duck, but still swims like a duck, what it it - a duck with some not-duck features, or a not-duck which can swim like a duck?


Actually, casters DO grant leadership bonuses--but only to units of their discipline. Wanda gives it to uncroaked, Sizemore to his golems.

Food for thought.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:17 pm

ftl wrote:
gazes_also wrote:
That's exactly what I am saying. for the Casters of the Magic Kingdom there is no logical option other than that he is a caster, because he is not not a caster.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and passes through a magic portal like a duck, there is no logical conclusion other than it is a duckamancer.


Except that's the thing - he doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck. He doesn't cast spells or use scrolls or make magic items. He grants a leadership bonus, which casters do not.

If it doesn't walk like a duck, it doesn't quack like a duck, but still swims like a duck, what it it - a duck with some not-duck features, or a not-duck which can swim like a duck?


Entering the Magic Kingdom is not done by casting a spell, it is done by being a caster (or not being a non-caster), it is nature not action that determines whether or not an entrant is a caster.
How much casting actually goes on in TMK? They make magic objects, but the place would be in chaos if for example, shockamancers and foolamancers were constantly doing their thing. The economy is organized todiscourage moneymancers from casting, and since they spend most of their time arguing about magic rather than doing magic, it seems that active casting except on business is discouraged within TMK. So the "prove you're a caster by doing magic" is unlikely to be something that would asked in TMK.
If all you know is duck and non-duck, and swimming is a defining characteristic of duckality, then you don't need to see it walk or hear it quack to decide it's a duck.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby raphfrk » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:08 am

ftl wrote:There was no croakamancy to be done in peaceful FAQ, so another motivation for her to stage an attack on FAQ was to have an excuse to uncroak things to use her talents. ...pay no attention to the arkentool behind the curtain...)


Interesting idea.

It could also explain why she fell in love with Jillian. Maybe Jillian was the only one who cared about her difficulties, and brought her back a corpse or 2 :).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:38 am

gazes_also wrote:If all you know is duck and non-duck, and swimming is a defining characteristic of duckality, then you don't need to see it walk or hear it quack to decide it's a duck.


Well, a fish can swim, thus a fish is a duck. Which is correct and incorrect at the same time. If you only care about the ability to swim to define something, then a fish has more in common with a duck than with a ant or a turkey (They can't swim, right?). And as long only the categories duck and non-duck exist, the fish will stay a duck.
By the way, the defining ability of an caster is that they cast. Hence the name. That they can enter the MK is just a proxy that very likely will prove that fact.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby robak » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:33 am

splintermute wrote:
robak wrote:Perhaps it isn't the portals that disband non-casters, but it's in fact the guard squad in the portal park. You know, the dozen or so casters we saw, ready to blast Parson, because he didn't look like a caster. And maybe hippiemancers have a special ability to make people believe any BS they want?

If it was the guard squad, they would have blasted Parson instantly, the way Bea was destroyed the moment she touched the portal. That's why we're assuming it's not the guard squad, but the portals themselves.

Actually, that's not what the update says.
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE043_NoIllustration.png wrote:At the end of the hall she found the room she needed. She had been here once today already. A shimmering magenta portal stood framed by simple columns on one wall. She did not falter, not a step.

In the field there stood more than two thousand units of the Unaroyal army, camped, ready for the next day's battle, discussing and speculating why their Queen had opted to make their stand outside the city.

Then, they vanished.

The red and orange banners of the proud capital city turned a blank gray, and stopped waving.

For the Queen had destroyed herself, and Unaroyal was no more.

It could just as well have been the portal guard squad.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby splintermute » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:37 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Well, a fish can swim, thus a fish is a duck. Which is correct and incorrect at the same time. If you only care about the ability to swim to define something, then a fish has more in common with a duck than with a ant or a turkey (They can't swim, right?). And as long only the categories duck and non-duck exist, the fish will stay a duck.
By the way, the defining ability of an caster is that they cast. Hence the name. That they can enter the MK is just a proxy that very likely will prove that fact.

Yes, but non-casters (e.g. archons; maybe western giants? sand-/manwitches? demons?) can also cast - what distinguishes them from casters?

And what do you mean by casting? Casting spells? According to Klog 1, there are "casters", such as croakamancers, that don't cast "spells", although they do spend juice.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby ftl » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:19 pm

splintermute wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
And what do you mean by casting? Casting spells? According to Klog 1, there are "casters", such as croakamancers, that don't cast "spells", although they do spend juice.


Wait, where in Klog 1 does it say that croakamancers don't cast spells? I looked up Klog 1 on the wiki, (http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_37a) and it doesn't have anything about casters. Klog 2 (http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_38a) says that in each discipline there are spells.

(BTW, Klog 10 http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_84a sepcifically states that "only Warlords have leadership" like Parson does (general bonus to all troops))

What Klog do you mean?

[edit]Oh, I found it. You mean situation room notes 7, which was page 1 of LiAB issue 2. It doesn't say that croakamancers don't cast spells - it says that some common tasks, including uncroaking, which can be done off-turn. It's a great big stretch to go from that to saying "croakamancers don't cast spells" - it's like saying that because thinkagrams can be done off-turn, then thinkamancers don't cast spells. For example, the mass uncroaking that Wanda did in TBfGK was, I believe, done on-turn and with a spell (had a spell word and everything). [/edit]
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Dante » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:45 pm

ftl wrote:Fact: we have never seen Parson cast a spell. Casters can cast spells. (However, it's of course POSSIBLE that he's still a caster - casters don't HAVE to cast.)


You're right that we've never seen it, but Parson did cast. He used a Luckamancy spell on Bogroll. He said "nothing happened," but that presumes there's visual evidence of Luckamancy, which is a poor assumption. Later Bogroll survives a long fall that ends up croaking Ansom, a "max" level Chief Warlord, which could certainly be taken as evidence that it worked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:47 pm

splintermute wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Well, a fish can swim, thus a fish is a duck. Which is correct and incorrect at the same time. If you only care about the ability to swim to define something, then a fish has more in common with a duck than with a ant or a turkey (They can't swim, right?). And as long only the categories duck and non-duck exist, the fish will stay a duck.
By the way, the defining ability of an caster is that they cast. Hence the name. That they can enter the MK is just a proxy that very likely will prove that fact.

Yes, but non-casters (e.g. archons; maybe western giants? sand-/manwitches? demons?) can also cast - what distinguishes them from casters?

And what do you mean by casting? Casting spells? According to Klog 1, there are "casters", such as croakamancers, that don't cast "spells", although they do spend juice.


Technically they are not casting, they use juice on a special ability. Besides that, I don't know what exactly the difference is. And we do know that croakamcers use spells; Wanda used the "Trioxin" spell during the TBfGK to mass-animate the fallen Jetstone units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby gazes_also » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:54 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
gazes_also wrote:If all you know is duck and non-duck, and swimming is a defining characteristic of duckality, then you don't need to see it walk or hear it quack to decide it's a duck.


Well, a fish can swim, thus a fish is a duck. Which is correct and incorrect at the same time. If you only care about the ability to swim to define something, then a fish has more in common with a duck than with a ant or a turkey (They can't swim, right?). And as long only the categories duck and non-duck exist, the fish will stay a duck.
By the way, the defining ability of an caster is that they cast. Hence the name. That they can enter the MK is just a proxy that very likely will prove that fact.


Ahbut, if in your paradigm, the only thing you know that swims is a duck then everything that swims is a duck until you come up with a new classification of "things that swim that aren't ducks" Parson may cause a paradigm-shift in TMK as a unrecognised type of unit that is sufficiently casterish to pass the portal.

As for a guard squad at the portal: these are casters. Do you not think if there was a way to magically automate this they would do it? Who works out the duty roster? It must be like herding cats. Seems a bit unfair to the shockamancers and such who would always need to be there, while the hippymancers would be pretty much useless as guards.
My theory is the portal can detect anomalous travellers and can alert casters in the vicinity of the portal before letting them through.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby DevilDan » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:55 pm

robak wrote:
splintermute wrote:For the Queen had destroyed herself, and Unaroyal was no more.

It could just as well have been the portal guard squad.


I believe it's been categorically stated that any non-caster would be killed by the trip or by the portal itself. There was no guard before Parson's visit to MK, apparently.

badninja wrote:Oh boy now I got a feeling that Charlie was responsible for GK sacking FAQ. I know that other people have come up with this but now it seems inevitably that this is why Charlie is not happy about GK winning. He could care less about his archons but Parson could find out the truth if he talked to the right people, namely the Tool and Wanda. If Jillian where to find out, well we all know what is going to happen. I feel that Charlie is going down and his house of lies are going to bite him soon.


What does Charlie gain from having GK take Faq exactly?

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
DevilDan wrote:
Units who've spent time with Parson--well, save maybe Stanley--seem to catch the thinking bug, at least to some degree.


Stanley is thinking more too. In Ansom's monologue he mentions Stanley moving siege engines into the river on the battle map. Stanley is looking at maps and trying to move pieces around. More recently Stanley and Parson have an argument that ended "snappishly" about pieces on the map. Compare with the opening of book one where Wanda walks in and Stanley is cracking nuts with his hammer. The transition to reminiscing about past battles and wanting to talk about them fits. Now that he suddenly stopped worrying about current battles something needs to fill the void.


Stanley is a warlord: he didn't need Parson to be interested in battles. He surely spent his share of time at the eyemancer map.

Maybe I'm not as devious as you, PC, but the two events you describe seem more like indications that Stanley is bored (in the scene with Ansom) and just petty or childish (in the scene with Parson, which I figure revolved around some minor idiotic point).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby Whispri » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:53 pm

DevilDan wrote:What does Charlie gain from having GK take Faq exactly?

The removal of a competing side of Mercenaries. While a barbarian warband did survive Faq's fall, it rapidly diminshed in potency judging by this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby DevilDan » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:10 pm

Whispri wrote:
DevilDan wrote:What does Charlie gain from having GK take Faq exactly?

The removal of a competing side of Mercenaries. While a barbarian warband did survive Faq's fall, it rapidly diminshed in potency judging by this.


So was the thinkagram anonymous, I wonder?

If it's Charlie identifying himself as Charlie, he'd sell the information to Stanley. And if he couldn't sell it GK, why not sell it to, say, Transylvito?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby splintermute » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:21 pm

ftl wrote:[edit]Oh, I found it. You mean situation room notes 7, which was page 1 of LiAB issue 2. It doesn't say that croakamancers don't cast spells - it says that some common tasks, including uncroaking, which can be done off-turn. It's a great big stretch to go from that to saying "croakamancers don't cast spells" - it's like saying that because thinkagrams can be done off-turn, then thinkamancers don't cast spells. For example, the mass uncroaking that Wanda did in TBfGK was, I believe, done on-turn and with a spell (had a spell word and everything). [/edit]

All I'm really saying is that the distinction between "spells" and "juice expenditures" seems arbitrary. Croakamancers don't seem to do anything, spell-wise, other than uncroak, and by Klog standards that's a "juice expenditure" rather than a spell. Trioxin was just a mass uncroaking - i.e. a mass juice expenditure, rather than a mass spell. Thinkagrams seem like juice expenditures, but the Klog specifically defines thinkagrams as "spells" rather than "juice expenditures", despite the fact that thinkagrams can be done off-turn.

I initially thought that the distinction was that "spells" can only be cast on turn, and "juice expenditures" can be cast whenever, but thinkagrams and lookamancy are categorized as spells, and can be cast off turn. So maybe some "spells" can only be cast on turn, and some "spells" can be cast whenever, but "juice expenditures" can only be cast off turn, but no, all the "juice expenditures" we've seen so far (uncroaking, upgrading, golem creation, etc.) can be cast either off turn or on turn. So my ultimate conclusion is that the line between "spells" and "juice expenditures" is completely arbitrary.

This also suggests that the line between "casters" and "juice spenders" (i.e. archons; other units with natural -mancy) is also somewhat arbitrary, leading to my grand theory that the portals can distinguish between units that have or don't have juice (and automatically annihilate juice-less units), and the guard squad is there as a secondary defense to annihilate non-caster juice units (e.g. archons, western giants, Parson (maybe he has juice?)) that get past the initial screen, although they only act on whatever their subjective definition of a "caster" vs. a "non-caster" is.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby DevilDan » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:35 pm

Is thinkagram juice expenditure dependent on distance?

It's hard to compare what the juice capacity of the different casters is: Wanda is a very skilled and powerful caster. Maggie, while proficient, is not on the same level.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 35

Postby slb » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:57 pm

spriteless wrote:Tramennis looks like a giddy little schoolgirl in the last 3 panels. I want a leather skirt like that to wear now, it would flatter my legs. :oops:
Let's hope that this will give some ideas to Rob & Xin for Wanda's next battlegear ;)

Hey I can even suggest the costume of somebody who can rock with a grade A 絶対領域 :twisted:
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