160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby Alexei P » Thu May 14, 2009 11:10 am

teratorn wrote:By the way, it's interesting that she refers to Faq as a place where she once served, not as
the place where she popped. Croatans and Faqians may not be the same thing.


As I never seem to tire of insisting, Faq and Croatan are not the same side. Every time Wanda's origin is mentioned, the word "popped" is carefully side-stepped. She's just overflowing with secret origins and hidden agendas, I'm telling you she is.

This is a very nice exposition page, and the first time, I believe, where we see a clear manifestation of Wanda's "weaknesses: capacity for hope" side. She seems very resigned to her fate, here.

I don't think she sees Parson as a friend, exactly. More like a convenient sounding board - from her perspective, he seems smart enough, useful enough to further her plans and not nearly dangerous enough to be a serious threat. Plus, she saw his mind when he was summoned, so she knows his character inside and out (or thinks she does). She must have had at least a few glimpses of his apathetic existence before coming to Erfworld, so she knows what strings to pull where he is concerned.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby The Old Hack » Thu May 14, 2009 11:15 am

Hatu wrote:Hello, all. Nice place.

I'm not really sure how to square Wanda's actions with the concept of Loyalty. If Loyalty can only prevent the knowing, conscious act of betrayal, it would seem to make dimwitted servants particularly dangerous to keep around. (I wonder if this is connected to how Stanley himself took the throne?) Similarly, can someone simply lie to themselves often enough to "justify" treachery this way? I'm not pleased to see still more murky rules designed to be obviated whenever necessary, but I'll just have to wait and see where this leads.

The thing about Loyalty is, it can be weak or strong just like any other stat. We do not know how strong Wanda's Loyalty to Banhammer was, though he did not seem to me the kind of ruler who would readily inspire strong Loyalty. As to the 'murky rules'... I am afraid Erfworld is similar to the real world that way. I personally am convinced that Wanda intended no direct betrayal though she certainly sought to serve another cause than Banhammer's.

I must say I continue to find Wanda a very frustrating character. I've despised her ever since her "interrogation" of Jillian, and this revelation continues the pattern. But I don't understand why people around her treat her so casually. Stanley might be explained by his annoying tendency to be only as shrewd as the plot requires, but why does Sizemore like her? She seems like exactly the sort of person he'd be wary of. Even Parson's "Are you saying I should be scared of you?" question is rather mild, given what Wanda just revealed. And he seems to lose interest in that line of thought almost immediately.

'Seems to' may very well be descriptive of what is going on. I would not underestimate Parson's subtlety. He may not be either manipulative or plotting by nature, but both are traits that he at need can and will make use of -- and as seen, may be very effective at. Sizemore... is simpler. I suspect he likes her simply because he is at heart a person who likes people and who wants to like people.

I personally do not dislike Wanda. Nor do I like her, I admit. But I do find the character fascinating and compelling, even if she most certainly is mad, bad and dangerous to know.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby moose o death » Thu May 14, 2009 11:25 am

assumiong she has a grander plan. if you spend years of your life focusing on one goal, and suddenly achieved it. the goal itself is an instance, so what do you do from there?

maybe your ambition for the past few years of your life is to walk on the moon. after 5 years you finally achieve your goal...then what? you've achieved the goal. you have been doggedly focused on doing that, have achieved it, where do you go from there?

i think wanda is suffering something of that, she's been running towards a finish line, she finished the race, and now she's realising there is more track after the line as well

failing that option B, she completed phase one of her insane plot for some goal. as her goal would have been prior to finiding out about the arkentool, she will now leave the plaid tribe. she must have had some reason to find out she would attune to an arkentool. and it does look like she has specifically asked the predectamancer something.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby raphfrk » Thu May 14, 2009 11:47 am

Hatu wrote:If Loyalty can only prevent the knowing, conscious act of betrayal, it would seem to make dimwitted servants particularly dangerous to keep around.


In the first few pages, Wanda says that she is allowed to disobey, if it will lead to Stanley's distruction.

It seems that she is also allowed if if she thinking is will benefit her side.

Presumably, in both cases, the effect has to be large. It could be "obey your ruler, unless obedience would cause your side to be much worse off". The stronger the negative effect to your side of obedience, the weaker the loyalty effect.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby warriortribble » Thu May 14, 2009 11:56 am

Perhaps an odd thought, but I now I really wonder why Wanda didn't turn to Ansom's side during this war. On one side there's this dude with an unattuned tool, and on the other side there's the idiot Stanley who wouldn't get another artifact unless the Titans dropped it on his head. Seems to me that turning and somehow stealing the pliers would've been a better plan for her. Then again, she hasn't tried to steal Stanley's artifact either... hmm.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby seans23 » Thu May 14, 2009 12:11 pm

Glome wrote:Somebody already made a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy game in the early 90's. I played at and got stuck trying to figure out how to install the improbability drive.


You can try again: http://www.douglasadams.com/creations/infocomjava.html

I recommend making a nice cup of tea, and keep track of your fluff.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby THE ARKENHAMMER » Thu May 14, 2009 12:25 pm

About the whole "Timeline of the Falling of FAQ" earlier...

We know Stanley does stupid things, such as assigning warlords based on looks.

BUT! We know he has bursts of awesome.

He assigned the thinkomancer-foolamancer-lookamancer link.
He got the Arkenhammer in the first place.

I don't really like sticking up for the guy, don't get me wrong. The downfall of Faq was Wanda's idea, but Stanley might've held back until he saw the entire fighting force leave. Simple enough.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby teratorn » Thu May 14, 2009 1:03 pm

warriortribble wrote:Perhaps an odd thought, but I now I really wonder why Wanda didn't turn to Ansom's side during this war. On one side there's this dude with an unattuned tool, and on the other side there's the idiot Stanley who wouldn't get another artifact unless the Titans dropped it on his head. Seems to me that turning and somehow stealing the pliers would've been a better plan for her. Then again, she hasn't tried to steal Stanley's artifact either... hmm.


We don't know the general feeling about croakamancy and torture in Erfworld. Why would Jetstone need her? The good thing about Stanley is that he can be told what to do.

It can also depend if there is a backstory between the Croatans and Jetstone. The words uttered by Wanda when she fell in the courtyard may not be about Jillian.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby Ragn Charran » Thu May 14, 2009 1:34 pm

raphfrk wrote:In the first few pages, Wanda says that she is allowed to disobey, if it will lead to Stanley's distruction.

It seems that she is also allowed if if she thinking is will benefit her side.

Presumably, in both cases, the effect has to be large. It could be "obey your ruler, unless obedience would cause your side to be much worse off". The stronger the negative effect to your side of obedience, the weaker the loyalty effect.


To build on this, if (and only if) Wanda truly believed Faq would prevail and win an attuned Arkentool for it, this could be a prime example of Duty in action - a high-ranking unit hatching a plan on her own initiative to better the position of her side. Since it can be assumed a peacenik like Banhammer would not approve of this plan she could enact it in secret without violating Loyalty.

It's not really that different than putting the control spell on Jillian - Wanda did it on her own, and relied on it, because she mistakenly believed it would save Gobwin Knob if Jillian ever found herself in a position to massively turn the tide of battle. It was an "Oops!" with the Dwagons over the lake, so it's possible (again the caveat, if Wanda truly believed Faq would prevail) Faq's sacking was an "Oops"! too.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby BarGamer » Thu May 14, 2009 1:43 pm

teratorn wrote:The words uttered by Wanda when she fell in the courtyard may not be about Jillian.


She shoulda pared it down to four words, that way, she coulda gotten ultimate arcane power. They ARE to the right person at the right time for entirely warped reasons. XD
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby nerf-dweller » Thu May 14, 2009 2:18 pm

SteveMB wrote:
Thydron wrote:It could also be that Wanda simply didn't know that Stanley would be bringing a ton of dwagons with him & assumed that because she had been Fated to get a Arkentool that Stanley was Fated to die in the attack?

She may have had no idea what a real fighting force could do -- her experience was limited to Faq and its "clerks" and perhaps Jillian's war stories (if she bothered to listen to them). Even if she'd seen Stanley or any of his dwagons in person prior to the attack (the latter, especially, strikes me as unlikely), she may not have fully appreciated the significance of their combat stats.

As I noted earlier, that may be why her military knowledge, even if she now understands more than she lets on, is a bit of a sore point.


I'm new to the forums, but a reader since page 3 or so of the webcomic. Wanda wouldn't have any sort of military knowledge at first. But Wanda seems to be very, very intelligent. She picks up on things quickly and is very talented at those thing if she wants to be. But she normally only pursues the things that interest her. However in following Stanley to gain her preordained Akentool, she's had to pick up on military knowledge because she has to.

And a side note: I don't think I've seen it mentioned on either forum, but Panel 3 of Page 82, that appears to be Jack and Wanda kneeling on Banhammer's left side.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby BarGamer » Thu May 14, 2009 2:59 pm

It's been speculated that that was Wanda for a good long time, but Jack can't be the person sitting there, for the simple reason is that he's on your roofs, veiling your cities, wearing purple clothes. Furthermore, this most recent comic completely debunks the speculation that Wanda is the Predictamancer for Faq. Hell, it should've been debunked back when Wanda entered into the Link with Maggie and Sizemore. She's a Croakamancer. But because she had no corpses to play with, she started dabbling in the other disciplines, probably out of sheer BOREDOM. Boop, she probably went to the Predictamancer going all, "Boo-hoo-hoo, I feel so useless and dumb, whatever shall I do with my life, am I destined to be bored 4EVAR?" And the Predictamancer said, "Lo, for you shall gain an Arkentool by force, and not be bored anymore."
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby SteveMB » Thu May 14, 2009 3:45 pm

BarGamer wrote:It's been speculated that that was Wanda for a good long time, but Jack can't be the person sitting there, for the simple reason is that he's on your roofs, veiling your cities, wearing purple clothes.

If he can cast the veil during Faq's turn and it lasts until Faq's next turn without further action (which seems consistent with the veiling of Stanley's bugout squad), Jack would time to listen to Banhammer's bloviations. (Whether he'd consider that a feature or a bug is another issue.)
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby ObadiahtheSlim » Thu May 14, 2009 4:29 pm

It is entirely possible Jack had a hand in the destruction of Faq. Maybe he was working with Wanda. Perhaps he thought that Faq could stand against Stanley. In the end, he stays loyal to Stanley out of guilt. If he betrays Stanley, everything he sacrificed at Faq would be in vain.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby nerf-dweller » Thu May 14, 2009 4:41 pm

BarGamer wrote:It's been speculated that that was Wanda for a good long time, but Jack can't be the person sitting there, for the simple reason is that he's on your roofs, veiling your cities, wearing purple clothes.


I'm 100% positive that it's Wanda kneeling there. Check panels 1 and 5 of the latest page. They are flashbacks to Wanda while she served in Faq. And now look back at panel 3 of page 82. The face, the hair and the hair ornament as the same. They are fastidious when it comes to the plot and the art. It's Wanda.

Now check out the close ups of Jack on page 110. What's one defining visual characteristic of Jack's that's apparent? His wild looking hair. He's got cowlicks sticking up everywhere. Look at the long shot of Jack in panel 2 of page 144. See the wild hair. Now look back to panel 3 of page 82. Look carefully at the hair of the man kneeling immediately to the left of Banhammer. Wild hair. If that's not Jack, I'll be Stanley's lackey for next book two.

As to Jacks clothes? It's not like casters and warriors who change their attire for pleasure or before going into battle.Changing wardrobe being doing certain activities seems to back part of the rules for Erfworld. You see it time and time again. Esepcially with Wanda. The panel you show is simply Jack in full regalia as a Master Class Foolamancer. The fact that it's purple robes only proves that it's Jack.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby Sean Clannery » Thu May 14, 2009 5:43 pm

I think my favorite bit of this page is that Wanda claims to be an agent of Fate, and yet she tells Parson, "You do not know what I...may yet do." If she's Fate-aligned, and he's Fate-aligned, surely he could go to a Predictamancer and find out *something* about her future actions...right? Right??

I think, if anything, that statement belies some nasty intentions on her part, things that clearly fall in the grey area she's discovered by betraying Faq, things that make nuking everyone with a volcano seem juvenile. Wanda for Book 2's primary antagonist, anyone?
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby Whispri » Thu May 14, 2009 6:14 pm

Thydron wrote:It could also be that Wanda simply didn't know that Stanley would be bringing a ton of dwagons with him & assumed that because she had been Fated to get a Arkentool that Stanley was Fated to die in the attack?

It's a much easier string of event to see happening than Stanley winning, turning to Stanley's side, waiting for his Overlord to die & leave him in charge, summoning a warlord from a different reality & finally getting an arkentool from the commander of a coalition of forces that Stanley pissed off enough to attack him.

She knew he had the Arkenhammer and an army with which he was ready to hit an isolated City he couldn't hope to reach with siege. And that means flying over or tunneling under the walls. Either way, she'd want the defenders to be as strong as possible, and that's where Jillian should have come in.

And really, the chances of a Predicitamancer who apparantly failed to predict the attack she instigated being wrong about the Arkentool prediction leave no reason for overwhelming confidence in a scenario like that. And this is throwing away all the weapons because victory is pre-ordained style confidence.

Aquillion wrote:
Whispri wrote:Yeah so, why would Wanda arrange this at a time when Jillian was away with her Gwiffons and the defences of the Capital weaker than normal?
Because she didn't really care. Her belief that her capital would win satisfied the technical requirements of loyalty, but that doesn't mean that she actually had to want her side to win, or care what happened either way.

She wanted the Arkenhammer, you'd expect her to make the odds of capturing it longer for no reason?

SteveMB wrote:
Thydron wrote:It could also be that Wanda simply didn't know that Stanley would be bringing a ton of dwagons with him & assumed that because she had been Fated to get a Arkentool that Stanley was Fated to die in the attack?

She may have had no idea what a real fighting force could do -- her experience was limited to Faq and its "clerks" and perhaps Jillian's war stories (if she bothered to listen to them). Even if she'd seen Stanley or any of his dwagons in person prior to the attack (the latter, especially, strikes me as unlikely), she may not have fully appreciated the significance of their combat stats.

As I noted earlier, that may be why her military knowledge, even if she now understands more than she lets on, is a bit of a sore point.

Ah Wanda, a dance fighting knight in black spiked armour the last I checked, whose disciplined stack control contrasts rather favourably with Jillian's patented 'You guys go get killed, wait for it, charge!' technique. She also happens to be a Croakamancer, which is just the sort of Caster Banhammer would want to hire out from time to time, on the account of the corpse business. Are you seriously claiming that Stanley would risk his top aide more readily? And really, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that calling down Stanley with the airforce away from home might be a bit of a bad idea.

As for her distaste for her military knowledge, she spent a long time working for a side in which Warlords were denigrated, and I'll also note that she's good at a lot of things she hates, like monstrous combo spell casting for example.

Thydron wrote:Yeah, something like that. Either way, she clearly states that she "imagined that he would lose, and his artifact would fall [to her]" - whether that's because she underestimated Stanley, overestimated Faq's troops, whatever- it shows pretty clearly that she didn't expect him to win & probably didn't consider contacting him to be betraying Faq.

It's still no excuse to arrange an invasion at a time of weakness for her side.

InInUrForumz wrote:
"De dirigible iz in flames, everybody'z dead, and I've lost my hat." That's the type of plan that's been shown here. So unless this Fate chick caused stupid pills to pop with Wanda's rations, why would she (Wanda) make things worse for the defenders than they needed to be? "I'm fated to survive this battle? I throw away my sword!"

There were faults in the plan, but I'm not sure we can lay the blame for them all at Wanda's feet just yet. There are a number of circumstances that might have led to these ends. For one, maybe Wanda contacted Stanley immediately after he received the hammer. She goes into it thinking "Ok, he's a lot stronger in direct combat than most, but we can handle that". Then, AFTER the plan is hatched, he figures out how to tame dragons. He wouldn't necessarily call Wanda to inform her of this development. Why would he? As far as he knows, she wants him to win, and he's planning on winning regardless. The dragons will just make it a more crushing victory. So he flies in on dragonback, levels FAQ, and all Wanda can say is "Oops?"

Also, we know from the so-called 'torture' scenes that Wanda has at least some affection for Jillian in the present storyline. Presumably that affection would have been even stronger when they were still at FAQ, mutually suffering under Banhammer's treatment of them. Maybe she arranged for Jillian to be away specifically for Jillian's protection? This becomes especially likely if she didn't know about Stanley's dragon-taming yet. Maybe she thought the rest of their forces could handle it. Again... Oops?

He'd tell her because they were conspiring together and because without Dwagons he'd be coming in through the tunnels without Siege, which would take some co-ordination considering the whole problem with the walls.

As for Jillian, why would she be more likely to get heself killed in this battle as opposed to the battle she was prostituting her Gwiffons to? And if Wanda thought it was too dangerous, why expect a victory at all?

Hatu wrote:I must say I continue to find Wanda a very frustrating character. I've despised her ever since her "interrogation" of Jillian, and this revelation continues the pattern.

You do realise that Jillian's in to that?

teratorn wrote:By the way, it's interesting that she refers to Faq as a place where she once served, not as
the place where she popped. Croatans and Faqians may not be the same thing.

The eyes have it, but a thought occurs. Suppose Translyvyto were to pop two heirs and send one of them off to start a new side. Would she/he stop being a vampire? Stop flying, stop having red eyes, stop being a bat carrier? I'm thinking that by such methods a tribe could spread beyond the borders of the Kingdom/Queendom it first encompassed. In other words, Faq could have been a successor Kingdom to Wanda's original side.
Last edited by Whispri on Fri May 15, 2009 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby SteveMB » Thu May 14, 2009 6:46 pm

Whispri wrote:As for Jillian, why would she be more likely to get heself killed in this battle as opposed to the battle she was prostituting her Gwiffons to? And if Wanda thought it was too dangerous, why expect a victory at all?

If Jillian got herself croaked on one of her mercenary missions, it wouldn't be Wanda's fault. If she got herself croaked fighting Stanley's invasion, it would be Wanda's fault. That's what she might have been unwilling to risk.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby InInUrForumz » Thu May 14, 2009 7:48 pm

SteveMB wrote:
Whispri wrote:As for Jillian, why would she be more likely to get heself killed in this battle as opposed to the battle she was prostituting her Gwiffons to? And if Wanda thought it was too dangerous, why expect a victory at all?

If Jillian got herself croaked on one of her mercenary missions, it wouldn't be Wanda's fault. If she got herself croaked fighting Stanley's invasion, it would be Wanda's fault. That's what she might have been unwilling to risk.



Or, to point on the obvious... Jillian is the sort of fighter to go straight for the enemy group's leader. Stanley had an attuned Arkentool, and (presumably), whoever the mercenary group was going to be fighting didn't have a Tool at all, attuned or not. Staying home would have probably been MUCH more dangerous for her.
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Re: 160 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 147

Postby Glenn » Thu May 14, 2009 7:52 pm

Parson's mission was to hold Gobwin Knob for Stanley. When she says that Parson lost, Wanda could be talking about personal issues like Bogroll's death, but I wonder if it's just possible that that Parson really has just lost Gobwin Knob, and just doesn't realize it yet? We know from one of the Klogs that factions can sometimes divide into two. If we suppose that the Decrypted units are loyal to Wanda, then maybe, by creating a army loyal to her, Wanda has just created a new faction, and by taking control of Stanley's last city has turned Stanley and the few units that still follow him into Barbarians. If that has happened, Stanley will naturally be furious at both Parson and Wanda, (and Stanley's anger would explain why Wanda thinks Parson is going to suffer) but perhaps "Tool" Wanda will try to calm Stanley down a little by offering to employ Stanley, Parson and Sizemore as mercenaries, so that they can continue the quest for the Arkentools.
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