Book 2 – Page 36

[gazes_also]

It is probable that Timewarp had to be done at close range with the enemy forces in the same hex, and it took considerable preparation. To achieve that it was necessary to have Wanda's force in the airspace but stationary and not attacking, therefore, parley was essential.

I'm sorry to be so direct, but is "probable" the same as "possible but thoroughly lacking in evidence?"
.

Ok - JS/Faq was off-turn, so caster has to be in the same hex as GK. Slately got his wrist psychically slapped by Charlie for even speaking to Vanna, do you think she could have cast with incoming dwagon fire? We do know that caster links are tricky, delicate things.

While not hardcore cannon evidence, reasonable inference I'm sure you'll agree.

[DevilDan]

There's a vast gulf between a general "in hex" and the more specific "stationary" and "not attacking."

The prohibition against speaking to a linked caster may have a lot more to do with why Parson shouldn't have talked to Misty or used her name--Rob made it a point to tell us that Spacely was definitely refused knowledge of the caster's name.

At the end, I am reluctant to believe that a spell that affects and entire side, with an effect that in a sense encompasses not only all of Gobwin Knob and Jetstone but any other sides involved in this conflict, across who know how many hundreds or thousands of hexes, has such specific requirements in terms of its focus or target.

On a lighter note, I see that the wiki entry on parley lists another violation of parley: Bea's treacherous attack that resulted in her decrypted daughter's pulverization--an action for which she was chided by the decrypted Ansom.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Parley

[splintermute]

There's a vast gulf between a general "in hex" and the more specific "stationary" and "not attacking."

The prohibition against speaking to a linked caster may have a lot more to do with why Parson shouldn't have talked to Misty or used her name--Rob made it a point to tell us that Spacely was definitely refused knowledge of the caster's name.

At the end, I am reluctant to believe that a spell that affects and entire side, with an effect that in a sense encompasses not only all of Gobwin Knob and Jetstone but any other sides involved in this conflict, across who know how many hundreds or thousands of hexes, has such specific requirements in terms of its focus or target.

On a lighter note, I see that the wiki entry on parley lists another violation of parley: Bea's treacherous attack that resulted in her decrypted daughter's pulverization--an action for which she was chided by the decrypted Ansom.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Parley

From a (balanced?) gameplay perspective, which is more likely - that a super powerful spell "that affects an[] entire side, with an effect that in a sense encompasses not only all of Gobwin Knob and Jetstone but any other sides involved in this conflict, across who know how many hundreds or thousands of hexes" has more restrictions on when and how and the precise situations in which it can be cast than a typical spell, or that it has fewer restrictions and can be cast with impunity anytime, anywhere?

Perhaps merely the presence of enemy units in the same hex was sufficient for the casting of the spell. Alternatively, perhaps it was so specific that every single element of the situation was crucial for the success of the Kingworld spell - i.e. it could only be cast by a barbarian Turnamancer linked to an Arkentool-attuned thinkamancer from the top of an allied tower during a parley when no enemy units were expending move or attacking, and had to be channeled through an enemy unit wielding an attuned Arkentool in a city zone adjacent to the caster - analogous to the way Parson's "great uncroaking" was only usable in the specific situation of an enemy force gathered in a hex containing a dormant volcano.

[DevilDan]

Ah, but here you're conflating "useful" with "usable," 'mute.

[splintermute]

Ah, but here you're conflating "useful" with "usable," 'mute.

Oops. Fixed.

My point stands.

[gazes_also]

There's a vast gulf between a general "in hex" and the more specific "stationary" and "not attacking."

The prohibition against speaking to a linked caster may have a lot more to do with why Parson shouldn't have talked to Misty or used her name--Rob made it a point to tell us that Spacely was definitely refused knowledge of the caster's name.

At the end, I am reluctant to believe that a spell that affects and entire side, with an effect that in a sense encompasses not only all of Gobwin Knob and Jetstone but any other sides involved in this conflict, across who know how many hundreds or thousands of hexes, has such specific requirements in terms of its focus or target.
...

A Further point, Charlie was out of contact with his Archons for the whole of his turn preceding the casting. That points to considerable preparation and/or focus in order to achieve the spell. I ask again if you seriously thing it could be cast in the teeth of a full on dwagon attack?
It has frequently been argued that such a powerful spell must have very specific requirements otherwise it would be cast at every opportunity, so now who's engaging in baseless conjecture?

[yuffiek]

It is probable that Timewarp had to be done at close range with the enemy forces in the same hex, and it took considerable preparation. To achieve that it was necessary to have Wanda's force in the airspace but stationary and not attacking, therefore, parley was essential.

Forcing a side's turn to end prematurely actually doesn't have to affect thousands of units across hundreds of hexes, you just have to remote mind control Stanley into ending the turn. Still very hard, but when you have a Turnamancer using 2 turns worth of juice and link-boosted with "unmatched Thinkamancy", you probably have mojo to spare.

[DevilDan]

A Further point, Charlie was out of contact with his Archons for the whole of his turn preceding the casting. That points to considerable preparation and/or focus in order to achieve the spell. I ask again if you seriously thing it could be cast in the teeth of a full on dwagon attack?
It has frequently been argued that such a powerful spell must have very specific requirements otherwise it would be cast at every opportunity, so now who's engaging in baseless conjecture?

Charlie´s a busy man--or tuna. He's got a lot of balls in the air. If he is indeed forming a link with Vanna, as would appear to be the case, then it's a tribute to his power and skill--or to the power of the arkendish--that he can retain a good amount of his individuality and handle other varied tasks. What more do you want from the man--or tuna?

Casters are used to casting in battle, and from what I can tell casters in a thinkamancer link are even less aware of their surroundings. I'm sure Charlie could manage to keep Vanna focused even in the face of a whole wing of dwagons bearing down on her.

Yes, one could argue that this spell has specific requirements. I would point out that you can't assume that this is what prevents it from being used frequently: I would be likelier to attribute it to the fact that no one had apparently ever heard of such a spell before. Maybe it requires a thinkamancer as powerful as Charlie? (Say, to just speculate wildly, one so powerful he can actually link to more than just two casters?) Maybe Charlie only thought it up after being inspired by the volcano decroaking?

[quindraco]

I remain convinced that the spell requires the arkendish and/or a large (minimum 3) linkup. Remember, casters pop at random, so it's not like anyone who wants to can just decide to try out a think-turn-turn linkup, for example.

[Lamech]

Casters are used to casting in battle, and from what I can tell casters in a thinkamancer link are even less aware of their surroundings. I'm sure Charlie could manage to keep Vanna focused even in the face of a whole wing of dwagons bearing down on her.

Erm... Charlie was woried about Vanna being asked tough questions while she was standing around. I'm just gonna assume a casting is harder then standing and dwagons are more distracting then tough questions.

Charlie´s a busy man--or tuna. He's got a lot of balls in the air. If he is indeed forming a link with Vanna, as would appear to be the case, then it's a tribute to his power and skill--or to the power of the arkendish--that he can retain a good amount of his individuality and handle other varied tasks. What more do you want from the man--or tuna?

Communication with the dish was gone and the archons could not contact Charlie. He was able to delegate to the archons, but Charlie appeared to be out of comision.

At the end, I am reluctant to believe that a spell that affects and entire side, with an effect that in a sense encompasses not only all of Gobwin Knob and Jetstone but any other sides involved in this conflict, across who know how many hundreds or thousands of hexes, has such specific requirements in terms of its focus or target.

The volcano was a powerful game changing spell, as was trioxin. Both had difficult to fulfill requirements to be usable. The volcano spell which wiped an army is almost impossible to use, and apperenlty is usable in a handful of hexes. Trioxin which was easier to use simply required a large number of corspes in one hex.

Just because something is powerful does not mean it is usable freely and easily. Frequently a powerful and effective technique is highly limited in its application.

But you are making one unfounded assumption, that Wanda entered Spacerock from the same exact hex from that ground troops would have to cross.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-01-27.jpg
Note the gate house and road they are over? Yeah... kind of the hex they have to go through.

That's assuming that any Erf units needed to even be in the hex or "at close range." Given the "range," if you will, of the Kingworld spell, I'm not sure I buy the need for the immediate presence of enemy troops. It seems to me that the basic assumption that a parley was needed to either distract Wanda or buy time. That seems improbable. Why not just sock Vanna away in the dungeon, for example? That would surely have bought her enough time. And if it even took so long that it would have roused Wanda's suspicions, why not at least put Wanda inside the tower, as opposed to the relatively visible and exposed parapet?

They need the enemy troops to be able to cast off-turn. Also if they could sock Vanna away some place safer: why didn't they? Your soon to be attacked by an enemy with foolamancy, who mught swoop on you with out your knowledge and your sitting out in the open? If she could cast from the dungeon thats where she would be.

Actually, I'll even say that the parley was over and what was broken was a truce. After all, they had already ended negotiations...

This makes things better how? Breaking a truce the turn its formed?

[timh]

It is probable that Timewarp had to be done at close range with the enemy forces in the same hex, and it took considerable preparation. To achieve that it was necessary to have Wanda's force in the airspace but stationary and not attacking, therefore, parley was essential.

Forcing a side's turn to end prematurely actually doesn't have to affect thousands of units across hundreds of hexes, you just have to remote mind control Stanley into ending the turn. Still very hard, but when you have a Turnamancer using 2 turns worth of juice and link-boosted with "unmatched Thinkamancy", you probably have mojo to spare.

This made me wonder if the "Turn ending spell" wasn't just a thinkamancy-spell on Stanley and the turnamancers only role in the linkup was to enable Charlie to cast off-turn.
Unlikely imo, considering Vanna had the whole "Gobwin Knob" letter-turning-thing, but still...

Also, one of my favorite updates, both the artwork and writing in this update get a big thumbs up from me

[DevilDan]

Erm... Charlie was woried about Vanna being asked tough questions while she was standing around. I'm just gonna assume a casting is harder then standing and dwagons are more distracting then tough questions.

Perhaps. But linked casters are spoken to all the time... as a single unit. The problem, or a problem, arises when you're trying to get one of them to respond as an individual.

Communication with the dish was gone and the archons could not contact Charlie. He was able to delegate to the archons, but Charlie appeared to be out of comision. The volcano was a powerful game changing spell, as was trioxin. Both had difficult to fulfill requirements to be usable. The volcano spell which wiped an army is almost impossible to use, and apperenlty is usable in a handful of hexes. Trioxin which was easier to use simply required a large number of corspes in one hex.

We know from the archon's thoughts that communications are broken on occasion. So either we posit that Charlie occasionally engages in caster links--for a variety of tasks--or that contact with the dish is broken for other reasons, presumably because there are any number of things that would distract a wheeling-and-dealing overlord who simultaneously manages multiple mercenary missions across Erf...

Just because something is powerful does not mean it is usable freely and easily. Frequently a powerful and effective technique is highly limited in its application.

From what we do know of the trioxin spell and the volcano uncroaking, the casters involved could have done them all over again the next day. There just wasn't a reason to do so. That doesn't mean there aren't limitations and drawbacks. But some of these are mancies and spells in their infancy, barely explored or exploited.

Note the gate house and road they are over? Yeah... kind of the hex they have to go through.

I'll stipulate that this is the only entrance. It still doesn't mean that my suggestion is completely without merit. After all, anything that could be done to separate Wanda from the bulk of her troops could be to Jetstone's advantage.

They need the enemy troops to be able to cast off-turn. Also if they could sock Vanna away some place safer: why didn't they? Your soon to be attacked by an enemy with foolamancy, who mught swoop on you with out your knowledge and your sitting out in the open? If she could cast from the dungeon thats where she would be.

If Vanna was in such unnecessary danger, why was the king out there with her? Yes, it's possible something as tenuous as line-of-sight contact was needed, but that's why the Titans created very small windows. And if they were aware of her being in danger, they would have placed her under serious guards.

Actually, I'll even say that the parley was over and what was broken was a truce. After all, they had already ended negotiations...

This makes things better how? Breaking a truce the turn its formed?

I admit this was meant somewhat facetiously. I didn't say it was better or worse, I just mentioned it because it is relevant to the "origin" of this discussion.

[Firkraag]

Jack is awesome!

And I love the art in the last update

[Chris Goodwin]

Perhaps merely the presence of enemy units in the same hex was sufficient for the casting of the spell.

Ah ha. Yes. Word of the Titans:

When an enemy comes to you on their turn, you can engage, and you can cast. This includes when they are attacking your city.

There were enemy units in the hex (Jack's stack of dwagons overhead), therefore Vanna could cast.

[Chameon]

I think I can see an upcoming scene, but I don't think Charlie is dumb enough to waste a calculation that won't get used...

Charlie: "Hey Parson, what're the odds that those forces of yours'll do badly this turn? :D"

Parson: Fair-to-good number inserted here.

Charlie: "D:"

Parson: "lol"

[gazes_also]

It is probable that Timewarp had to be done at close range with the enemy forces in the same hex, and it took considerable preparation. To achieve that it was necessary to have Wanda's force in the airspace but stationary and not attacking, therefore, parley was essential.

Forcing a side's turn to end prematurely actually doesn't have to affect thousands of units across hundreds of hexes, you just have to remote mind control Stanley into ending the turn. Still very hard, but when you have a Turnamancer using 2 turns worth of juice and link-boosted with "unmatched Thinkamancy", you probably have mojo to spare.

This made me wonder if the "Turn ending spell" wasn't just a thinkamancy-spell on Stanley and the turnamancers only role in the linkup was to enable Charlie to cast off-turn.
Unlikely imo, considering Vanna had the whole "Gobwin Knob" letter-turning-thing, but still...

Also, one of my favorite updates, both the artwork and writing in this update get a big thumbs up from me

My (purely conjectural) take on it is that the Timewarp spell was a hack of the GK CnC mechanisms rather than a tweak at Stanley ( which Maggie could have detected). With command level GK units in the hex Vanna hacks into their turn controls (hence the square turning - cracking the 'password') and issues the end turn command. I wonder whether leaving Ansom behind may have come close to screwing up the whole thing...

[Lamech]

My (purely conjectural) take on it is that the Timewarp spell was a hack of the GK CnC mechanisms rather than a tweak at Stanley ( which Maggie could have detected). With command level GK units in the hex Vanna hacks into their turn controls (hence the square turning - cracking the 'password') and issues the end turn command. I wonder whether leaving Ansom behind may have come close to screwing up the whole thing...

Thats what I assumed. Who all can end turns anyway? Can the chief warlord do it? Can just any side in an alliance do it? Can a chief caster do it?

[Cadrys]

Thats what I assumed. Who all can end turns anyway? Can the chief warlord do it? Can just any side in an alliance do it? Can a chief caster do it?

We saw Ansom end turn in book one, as Chief Warlord. Is there such a thing as a 'chief caster' ? I can't think of any other direct evidence that says other than the Ruler or CW has the power to end turn. (Ansom was CW of the _Alliance_, not just Jetstone)

[gazes_also]

My (purely conjectural) take on it is that the Timewarp spell was a hack of the GK CnC mechanisms rather than a tweak at Stanley ( which Maggie could have detected). With command level GK units in the hex Vanna hacks into their turn controls (hence the square turning - cracking the 'password') and issues the end turn command. I wonder whether leaving Ansom behind may have come close to screwing up the whole thing...

Thats what I assumed. Who all can end turns anyway? Can the chief warlord do it? Can just any side in an alliance do it? Can a chief caster do it?

well... although Ansom was Stanley's CWL, he was completely under Wanda's control, so she was de facto commander. My guess is that anyone at senior command level would have provided the necessary 'terminal' to hack the system.

[name lips]

I have no problem simply declaring the Time Warp spell utterly broken.

I mean, Parson's trimancer linkup destroyed an entire massive army in the space of one turn, with no apparent chance to avoid destruction. It also changed the terrain type, something only the Titans are supposed to be able to do (at least I think Sizemore said that). Boom, everything in hex dead. Rocks fall, everybody dies.

The Time Warp seems about as broken to me. Deny your opponent the chance to take their turn. Or worse -- end their turn mid way through at the worst possible moment.

Maybe the Arkendish was required. Maybe not. Maybe there are other limitations that make it "reasonable." Maybe not. We don't know.

But I can't help wondering if "creative use of trimancers" is part of how Parson is going to break Erfworld. It doesn't even need to be him doing it -- if everybody starts realizing how broken they are, then everybody will start using them as a matter of course. All hell would break loose.