Book 2 – Page 37

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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Oberon » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:41 pm

multilis wrote:I also disagree in Stately.
First thing, please fix yourself. It's either "Stanley" or "Slately." By spelling it that way you confuse the question of to whom you are referring.
multilis wrote:How would you react if your son wanted to have detailed discussion with a known member of klu klux klan or nazi wanna be or pedophile?
If that KKK member or Nazi or pedophile had a large force which almost wiped you out and is still within striking distance of wiping your side if they live out the turn, yes you talk to them. It's as Parson himself said (paraphrased to avoid archive diving) "You gotta get over boop like that when your life is on the line."
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby DevilDan » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:33 am

Not to be snarky, but you know it was a filler episode when the reaction thread is barely breaking six pages almost a week after the comic was posted.

Mind you, I quite enjoyed the conversation between Slately and Tramennis, but this particular update wasn't much grist for the mill, was it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:32 am

DevilDan wrote:Not to be snarky, but you know it was a filler episode when the reaction thread is barely breaking six pages almost a week after the comic was posted.

Mind you, I quite enjoyed the conversation between Slately and Tramennis, but this particular update wasn't much grist for the mill, was it?



+1 to that. This page could've been easily condensed into 2-3 comic squares tops. This is I know that the prince's a diplomat and stuff but inner petty politics/family anger isn't really that fascinating when compared to everything else in the comic.

If this thread it's just 6 pages long after so much time it's because there's barely anything to discuss. Royals hate Charlie. The prince has some brains. They want to talk to GK's forces before killing them. We already knew all of that.

Sigh, I guess the last updates had been too good for the author to manage to keep the rythm. We've been spoiled by the excellent quality before this particular update.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby robak » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:51 am

To be fair, most of the discussion in the other threads is usually about somthing only remotely related to the page. For some reason this week the tangent continued in last weeks thread, which is therefore totally blown out of proportion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby timh » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:23 pm

I actually enjoy pages like these. Much like the text-updates they add some more depth to the comic, something you won't find in most webcomics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Carne » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:59 pm

Oberon wrote:
multilis wrote:I also disagree in Stately.
First thing, please fix yourself. It's either "Stanley" or "Slately." By spelling it that way you confuse the question of to whom you are referring.


Actually, I found it easy to follow. Now, what bugs me is people who can't get Tramennis right. It's TrAmennis, people!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Spot » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:54 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
gazes_also wrote:Call me an existentialist cynic, but in most cases an ideology is generally an external justification for doing what you would have done anyway.


And call me a true cynic, but that sounds like a fashionable justification for moral weakness.



When people call someone an ideologue, it is not intended as a compliment.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby HailGreen28 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:44 pm

Glome wrote:
HailGreen28 wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. Slately and the Royals aren't talking to Charlie and think he's a Toolist because he screwed them over at GK.


Not really, Charlie didn't screw over the RCC any more than he normally screws over his clients. Maybe the one exception being that he offered TV his archons at a much higher rate than normal because getting Parson's predictions was more valuable to him, But honestly there were plenty of more likely scenarios for this than Charlie being secretly in league with Gobwin Knob. Especially when you consider that Charlie lost more at the battle of GK than any other side in the fight except perhaps Jetstone.

It takes a specially type of ideological blindness to believe Erfworld's most well known mercenary leader is working with a dimwitted former-piker to subjugate royalty. I mean, it is one thing to tell other leaders that to scare them into allying with you, but here we see he actually believes it to be truth with no real evidence to back him up. Anyway, Slately comes off as being as bad a leader as Stanley not because he is dumb like Stanley, but because he refuses to accept anything that contradicts his world view.
I don't know this, but I doubt Charlie regularly renegotiates deals so much as he did starting at the battle in the mountain pass (Where Caesar seemed convinced it was deliberately too high a price), and to Ansom on the wall (that WAS a money grab, IMO). I don't see how he could stay in business long that way.

Charlie screwed over the RCC by ducking out of the mountain pass fight, standing pat on his turn rather than doing anything to help the RCC take GK even though he was still technically allied with them at the time, squeezing more money from Ansom in the middle of a fight, then letting Ansom get croaked anyways from a veiled Twoll that's pretty well known to be detectable by the Archons.

Add to that the battle ended mysteriously in total disaster for the RCC, probably no witnesses to whether Charlie took heavy losses (Charlie may have even wanted to keep that info to himself for a variety of reasons)....

Add to that Parson's teasing that he had a "secret ally" in the RCC just before Charlie starting acting decidedly un-allied-like, and that Charlie appears not to be a Royal... that's plenty of evidence to go on. It's no surprise Slately and others would add 2 plus 2 and end up with..... 5!!!! :evil: (And Charlie was in fact working off a deal with GK in the closing stages of that battle (Parson's calcs), so technically the RCC would be right to think Charlie had collaborated with Gobwin Knob.)

Agree Slately is probably way too set in his thinking, but he's not actually countermanding Tramennis. That's some open-mindedness there. I wouldn't expect any outside-the-box thinking, but Slately seems cynical enough about his court, Haggar, and TV to question things. 'Course if you think cynicism may be just part of his own world-view, I wouldn't disagree, LOL. He was dead on correct about Jillian negotiating for his head, but that may just fit his worldview too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:24 pm

Excellent, spot on post, HailGreen.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby joosy » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:12 am

of course - we all know that 2+2=5.. for very large values of 2.

and completely off topic here but boys and girls - watch Batman: Under the Red Hood if you can. It is the most emotionally wrenching Batman animated movie since Mask of the Phantasm. Don't listen ot others talk about it and spoil it. Just pick it up and watch it. Even if you know most of the story arc from the comics, see it.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled nutball erfworld theories..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am

Intruder wrote:Having an ideology means you believe in something but that isn't always to the believer's credit. An ideology doesn't necessarily make you right or just, and it definitely doesn't have to mean that you value other people as ends unto themselves rather than just tools to be used.


Excellent point, and very Kantian. The thing is, Royalty is costly to maintain. Slately does have, occasionaly, to make "stupid" decisions based on principle. At the very least, this speaks to some attribute that some may call stubbornness (or worse), I would call fortitude- and would be an important prerequisite for things like standing up for right when might is not on your side.

Slately does not know what right is, and you plausibly state that Don is just a desperate Me-tooist, struggling to keep TV afloat. Even these characters are in my mind morally superior to Jillian, because they, at least in some abstract sense, think there is such a thing as doing the right thing when it's not in your short term interest.

ParsonIsOP wrote:That is, both characters {Parson, Tremennis} actually have a human conscience. Tremannis himself proves this when we learn about his philosophical views; he thinks that the "system" allows for unjust suffering and pain and isn't willing to simply dismiss it as part of some Grand Plan.


Good point about the conscience, but I disagree that Jillian shows signs of one. Trem and Parson, though they may not know what they stand for, do want to figure something out- and are prepared to accept a picture of the Universe that does not revolve around their every whim. I doubt Jillian has that capacity.

Spot wrote:When people call someone an ideologue, it is not intended as a compliment.


Lol! To wit->

joosy wrote:of course - we all know that 2+2=5.. for very large values of 2.


Or if the Party says so, for the party is Strong, Eternal and Right. Long live Big Brother!

Jokes are always fun, but it is a bit, just a bit, sad for the world- the Earth world- at large that many of us have lost confidence in anything that could be described as a big ideal. We've got some that failed, and ditched them, we've got at least one that worked well enough so far (despite a spotty past for itself too- I'm thinking of the Enlightenment, and the various other good idea(l)s it brought forth), let's not throw the baby with the bathwater. This is not apropos of Erfworld so I'll stop here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Hiai » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:56 pm

Well, I see others besides me thought of this update as more of a "mm hmm ok that's what I thought" moment, rather than the usual "omg REALLY? what a revelation/insight/great confirmation of my perceptiveness!" sort of update we usually get.

However, that doesn't bother me in the least. Because solidifying "who" a major player is, even if it's what we expected them to be, is an important process, as well, and I am willing to allow Tramennis and Slately the luxury of a few extra panels to establish that confirmation for us. Especially as, let's face it, there are bound to be some heavy duty action sequences coming up, and the Titans have a way of making us fidgety for the next update, probably on purpose.

It's somewhat amusing to see further speculations as to Jillian's character arise from the revelations of Tramennis and Slately's characters, but I'm not really surprised by it. Jillian, after all, is an extremely polarizing figure, both in comic and in forums, and Slately's take on her being so different than Tramennis' was bound to start that whole thread again.

Personally, I will have to side with the camp that thinks she is a selfish, thoughtless git, with no moral compass beyond a sort of childish "I want what I want and now I have the means to get it" attitude. Nothing in her conversations and interactions with any of the other characters has done anything but confirm that impression for me. For those of you who think being "action-oriented" exempts her from having to think about the consequences of her own actions...well...nevermind. There's no way to speak to such people.

What I did like about this update is the way it set Jetstone's players as the philosophical polar opposites of the GK side, much more obviously and firmly than previously. Slately obviously = Stanley, from their stature to their stubborn stance on their own principles, while Tramennis being set up as Parson's equivalent fills me with nothing but delight. By so blatantly setting the similiarities between these players against each other, the differences stand out in even sharper contrast. My particular delight is comparing Stanley's growth to Slately's regression.

In the course of the comic so far, we have seen Stanley grow from a childlike runt with all the charm of a badger, playing with an overly powerful toy and trying to make it against the big boys, into a slightly more thoughtful runt, who has begun making a real effort to understand the things that are going on around him. From trying to actually learn the names of his units, to analyzing his own assumptions about Wanda, he is slowly but surely "growing into" his position as the ruler of a side. He is likable in the way that your disadvantaged cousin may be, all awkward and embarrassing, but still family, and therefore to be loved.

Slately, on the other hand, has gone from being the decisive and effective leader of one of Erf's most pwerful sides, to a petulant and stubborn whiner, who sticks to his prejudices despite all evidence against them, and is perilously close to becoming an obstacle in the defense of his own realm. Much as Stanley started out being. I feel sorry for him, as we've seen he has ample reasons, at least in his own mind, to respond in the way he has, though we as readers know how disastrously it could turn out for him.

If we can draw out any assumptions from this dichotomy, it may be that, as all signs are pointing, GK (and it's leader) is on the rise, despite recent setbacks, while Jetstone has passed it's peak and is about to go the way of all empires. For Tramennis fans, as I have become over time, this does not bode well. However, it is a poignant reminder that a culture established by extraordinary people doesn't necessarily stop producing extraordinary people... it just starts to decline when mediocrity is accepted as more desirable.

I would hypothesize that Stanely has the potential for greatness...ever since he truly took the "Titanic Mandate" to heart. When he was a jumped-up piker who thought he had the Titan's luck, he was an unbearable git. With Parson's arrival, and subsquent articulation of the Mandate vis a` vis Toolism, Stanley has gradually come to believe that his life and leadership truly DOES have a purpose, beyond his own personal whims. Ironically, having a purpose so similar to the Royal Mandate has become the one thing that truly could make Stanley into a "real ruler". Long after setting out to create his own empire, and failing abysmally, Stanley is finally getting the empire he wanted...but he's likely to have the sort of suspicious view of it that Julius Caesar did. I wonder when he's going to have Zhopa following him around to whisper "you were popped a piker" in his ear occasionally. lol
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby ParsonIsOP » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:43 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Good point about the conscience, but I disagree that Jillian shows signs of one. Trem and Parson, though they may not know what they stand for, do want to figure something out- and are prepared to accept a picture of the Universe that does not revolve around their every whim. I doubt Jillian has that capacity.

I don't like Jillian. That said, I don't really understand the hate she gets. She's violent, obstinate and pretty dumb; but that doesn't put her in any exclusive club amongst Erfworlders. Slately, Haggar and Stanley are like this. Even King Banhammer has "obstinate" and possibly "dumb" to count against him. The Don is fast defecting.

And none of these people are better for serving a "cause." I'd argue that Jillian has the leg up on them in that she doesn't try to pass selfish motives as anything other than selfish motives. Let's be honest, the ideological war is just about self-serving feudal lords who have chosen to exalt themselves. Nor do I buy that the various rulers are "better" because they are frugal about their human resources. In the end, the war is about their respective egos.

Jillian has decided that her allegiance lies with certain unnamed individuals, not some idea that she's privileged Royalty. As far as I'm concerned, that is a good start.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Geordy » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:44 am

Very nice post Hiai. Actually that nice that it made me coming out of my lurkerhole and broadcast my opinion on some characters myself:

Jillian:

I dont care much about her and her lovestory. I liked the panel which some user here altered into Tramennis poking Ansom with a stick and her making a funny face and a quick remark about it. The best use of this character so far, hehe. But in one thing, Hiai, I disagree. You think she has a
Hiai wrote:...sort of childish "I want what I want and now I have the means to get it" attitude.

True, her behaviour might appear unpredictable - but one thing during the recent ongoings oppose the idea of her steering directly and mindlessly towards her object of desire: the trick with which she ended GK's turn. This is no cheap Jack veil, nothing you pull off on the fly, this was a well thought out masterpiece and a clear sign of thinking first. If you ask me this was way too tremendous (the reason why they keep spelling him Trem) to be just a plain erratic impulse by her.

Hiai wrote:...Jetstone's players as the philosophical polar opposites of the GK side.

This is one way to see it, and it is a good one. Let me say about the comparison between Parson and Tramennis that it is of course unfair. Because Parson has this selfawareness included, he can view the Erfworld from the outside because... well, he is a outsider. And with this system thank god he is allowed to be. Tramennis on the other hand has to work his way out of the system he knew from day one on. Seeing it through is a much bigger achievement for him than it is for Parson who has this as some kind of natural ability.

Stanley:

Im sorry, but this guy will never be a hero. You say he is beginning to show some interest in his units like knowing their names. I see this as an example for the direct opposite: he is not progressing but stagnating as the pesky little bugger he ever was. Why? Because he is not really interested in Zopha's name the situation or fate or whatever lead him to ask "What was this units name again? Ahh fugg it, I call him like I want." He doesnt care. BTW Dr. Zoidberg for president! :lol: And dont say he is too dumb to remember names - clearly he knows the names of Maggie, Wanda or Parson. He is capable of doing this very small sign of interest for others yet he decided to not care enough. All in all he will never evolve into a leader Slately once was/still is.

Slately:

Sure, he is trapped inside his own stubborn believes. I give you that. But I got the impression that these believes start to crumble or soften. For me the fact that a discussion like we just saw between him and his diplomat son is a natural thing is way superior to the fact that such discussions that lead to an insight always had to be forced upon Stanley. Be it that Parson speaks although Stanley doesnt want him to or be it Maggie hypnotising him to finally listen to the superguy Wanda summoned for him. In Jetstone the Prince/Chief Warlord anounces that he wishes to see the king - and then they talk! In my eyes this gives more grounds for progression than this hammer-swinging jerk that is only still in place because he is being constantly rescued by the more reasonable charcters around him.

Hiai wrote:...it may be that, as all signs are pointing, GK (and it's leader) is on the rise, despite recent setbacks, while Jetstone has passed it's peak and is about to go the way of all empires.

Dont talk about foreshadowing. Im so afraid that you are right. Do you remember Zhopa mincing radishes? Or Stanleys story where Wanda went into a tower and came back with an uncroaked ruler? I think this is the right time to say "I have a baaad feeling about this."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby zilfallon » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:59 am

not to be offensive, but i find this last page a bit below standard and quite disappointed. i'm aware that this kind of conversation improves the story, but these episodes should be text updates don't you agree? i check this site every day to see if this boring episode went away and some interesting update about the real action happened, but it has been almost a week...
and please, do not misunderstand my intention of complaining about slow update pace. i LOVE erfworld, but this is my "reaction" to last update and just wanted to mention it. i do not want to turn this into another "shut up and don't complain about updates when you aren't even a tool"


now:

True, her behaviour might appear unpredictable - but one thing during the recent ongoings oppose the idea of her steering directly and mindlessly towards her object of desire: the trick with which she ended GK's turn. This is no cheap Jack veil, nothing you pull off on the fly, this was a well thought out masterpiece and a clear sign of thinking first. If you ask me this was way too tremendous (the reason why they keep spelling him Trem) to be just a plain erratic impulse by her.


Geordy: that trick is charlie's work. we already have proof that vanna was linked before she casted that spell. but no other caster was around, and we already know about unmatched thinkamancy powers of Arkendish. it all adds together...jillian's secret ally, thinkamancy which made long-range link...it has to be charlie this time. it doesn't change the fact that jillian is dumb... and she's really the character i hate most. she should have been croaked long time ago with that reckless style and that mind, she's alive just because Wanda keeps her alive...Wanda had more than a few chances to remove her existance.

Hailgreen28: I agree with you about charlie. slately has everything he needs to distrust charlie

About Stanley...I don't understand why he's so afraid of dying. Wit Parson's dwagon system, he can build a very strong force in a short time. He is also pretty capable of taking care of himself in battle. Remember the time he blasted Ceasar... He can rock-off, which is assumed to be stronger than dance-fighting. He should be able to conquer lots of cities even without Wanda's decrypted.

Oh but anyway, i should stop finding excuses for myself to prevent being sad if Wanda dies, that won't happen probably :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby robak » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:12 am

It's not Wanda's fate to die here this turn. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby Donoterase » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:38 am

Usually this is my pastime while I pretend to work. But I wanted to pop in long enough to say nice post, Hiai. You captured the essence of it, to me. However, I feel I have to agree with the other posters in that Jillian simply doesn't have the sophistication to pull off the Kingworld spell. She had some coaching on that one, I'm pretty sure.

My dislike of Jillian parallels that my hero in the tin foil hat, BlandCorporatio. It's not that she's reckless and shortsighted. It's that somehow she manages to luck (or ass-pull) her way through everything. Everyone else has to pay their dues in some form, except Jill. Sure, she lost Ansom. But Jillian herself has mentioned lovers are a fleeting thing for her, and she has him back again (albeit in altered form). She had no particular attachment to her father or kingdom and has no real friends. So Jillian is kind of like a wandering act of chaos prancing all over Erfworld, forcing everyone around her to pick up the pieces again after her passing. I for one will be at the block party if she ever gets her comeuppance. Not the "if"; it looks like she's a favorite (THE favorite?) character of the author.

As for the idealism versus individualism... meh. We can't even sort that out here in real life, but I have to again concur with Bland's outlook. Heroism, altruism, and nobility as well as ethics are indeed worthy causes. I don't hate Slately or even dislike him that much. I mostly feel a vague sort of pity for him. The world is passing him by and the times are a-changin'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:49 am

This update did very little for me until reading Hailgreen's post. In light of what he said I do see this panel as a comparison of characters. That said, I fear that the main point of this panel was errata: "Slately looked too thoughtful in his conversation with Don... got to reestablish him as a hotheaded twit." Definitely ideal text update material... not to imply that Xin didn't take the mandate of drawing a conversation and run far with it!

Indeed, Slately is being portrayed in an unlikable way, and I might even dislike him if he wasn't whining the truth.

I've posted at length about why I don't care for Jillian already, so I'll just reaffirm myself here. Other characters react to her in inexplicable ways, and they are less awesome for it. She is portrayed as a brilliant strategist when all of her ideas are either very bad, given to her, or the obvious use of her units given that the well being of the sides helping her is not a factor. Finally, BLAND's point about characters that disagree with her being portrayed as idiots is, in my mind, accurate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:31 pm

Wait, who's saying Jill's anything approaching a strategist? She seems like a capable tactician, but that's as far as I'd go. Her leaving Spacerock is both irresponsible and selfish: but I guess she cares more about letting Wanda leave than about her revenge against Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 37

Postby ParsonIsOP » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:01 pm

No, Jillian is made to look brilliant.

We all know that this is just the handiwork of the Don and Charlie though. To Jill's second-in-command, it looks like she's this genius military leader, although the audience knows better. She's an ineffectual leader who is going to blindly chase her passions; and she doesn't have much control of her life.

I too hate the Cuckoolander Sue-type characters who break every rule of the narrative just because they're sooo CRAZY, but that's not Jillian. She's survived, which is as far as her luck carries her, but she's still just a bit of flotsam being tossed about by the other intelligent power players.

Maybe her character arc will have her change into a better person. I'm mostly indifferent though; since I think characters like Jack, Tremannis and Parson have already beat her there.
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