Book 2 – Page 37

[the_tick_rules]

Oh don't you love the intrigue and politics of it all/

[gaiaswill]

Ah, Slately. Ever so eager to rob defeat from the jaws of victory. Much like a certain other dim-witted leader of a certain other side.

[barawn]

Tramennis IS toeing a dangerous line because he might play exactly into what Parson wants - a quick strike really is the best tactic right now, talk later. I really hope it doesn't turn out that way - I'd like Tramennis to *actually* turn out to be a good leader, rather than being built up as a good leader and then walking into the same trap that a stupid leader would have.

The only way Tramennis would know that a quick strike is the best tactic is if someone, somehow had intelligence regarding Jack/Parson's conversation. That's the only reason we know that that's the scenario that Parson's assuming won't happen (and isn't planning for). Unfortunately for Tramennis, the best decision from his point of view happens to be the one with the worst outcome. And to be honest, with the additional information that Tramennis is getting, a quick strike actually looks like a bad option.

If you assume Charlie tells him everything we know he knows (which won't happen), all he would learn is that Charlie's plan was to trap Wanda and destroy her, and Jillian changed the plan and didn't attack Wanda. Charlie doesn't know why. Jillian specifically didn't say why. So from Tramennis's point of view, there's a large enemy force, above the city, and he has no idea why it's there. He'd have to try to gain some information.

[Pebot]

charlie is a smart guy. I think he can piece together why Jill went for Ansom. Jill was waiting for ansome at jetstons capital, when he didn't show, she left to find him. She is very transparent.

[mindsword]

I find it amusing that Slately is more concerned about being right then about the hostile forces in his air space. I also find it interesting that Charlie being a Toolist isn't simply propaganda. I assumed that Slately knew that Charlie wasn't directly tied with GK, but was trying to convince everyone he was to put pressure on him.

hmm, anyone know if Jetstone has a thinkamancer? if they don't, how will they communicate with Wanda? Shouting? Probably not flying up to them...

[Curxzed]

There actually is a way that Trem could know he needed to attack right now. Assuming that behind the scenes Ansom and RCC1 got word back to any of their leaders about tbfgk and what Parson did.

But, judging from everyone's reactions and the way they have all been acting, I feel thats just about impossible.

TV hadn't even taken the leadership of GK seriously, up until Ansom blew the veil and had all the dwagons and archons take off.

And yes, GK should have grabbed Trem. But it's going to make a better story for them not to have.

[HandofShadows]

Am I the only one getting a huge douchebag vibe from King Slately?

Nope. At this point he is making Stanley look good. And we all know how low Stanley's IQ is, so he at least has an excuse to act stupid.

[gazes_also]

If you assume Charlie tells him everything we know he knows (which won't happen), all he would learn is that Charlie's plan was to trap Wanda and destroy her, and Jillian changed the plan and didn't attack Wanda. Charlie doesn't know why. Jillian specifically didn't say why. So from Tramennis's point of view, there's a large enemy force, above the city, and he has no idea why it's there. He'd have to try to gain some information.

Charlie won't tell him everything he knows, Tram knows that, Charlie will know that Tram knows...
He wants confirmation that Charlie is running the show, either direct or indirect. He would like to know what Charlie's up to and why, but it's unlikely he with get a truthful answer, but that's probably ok. What would be really important would be to know how motivated Charlie is and what he's prepared to do to achieve his objectives, including how much Charlie wants to remain hidden from GK. Once Tram gets a sense of that, then he'll have an idea how much leverage he has. It's going to be an interesting poker-game of a discussion, both trying to get something without giving anything away.

[joosy]

If you assume Charlie tells him everything we know he knows (which won't happen), all he would learn is that Charlie's plan was to trap Wanda and destroy her, and Jillian changed the plan and didn't attack Wanda. Charlie doesn't know why. Jillian specifically didn't say why. So from Tramennis's point of view, there's a large enemy force, above the city, and he has no idea why it's there. He'd have to try to gain some information.

Charlie knows why; it's Ansom.
see:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-12.png

"I'm in the business of understanding," said Charlie. His tone was serious, but not unkind. "And also of Thinkamancy. I believe I know what new wrinkle we're talking about here. I just wish you'd said something about it in the planning phases."

What Charlie probably DOESN'T know or has been holding back, is the true nature of Wanda and Jillian's relationship. Had he known that he would have never expected Jillian to attack Wanda. Or if he DID know, then it would seem even Charlie doesn't understand the mechanics of Love in Erfworld. Perhaps it is their relationship that caused Duncan's magic item to react the way it did as well.

[Sixty]

I think we're gonna at least see Parson put his plan into motion. The viewer has specifically been left out of what Parson is gonna do, all we know is there is some form of counter-attack and it will happen at the Parley. If Trem attacked and ruined that, we would never know what Parson had planned and how he intended to break the rules of Erf.

[DoctorJest]

Am I the only one getting a huge douchebag vibe from King Slately?

I think the similarities between Slately and Stanley are notable. Note that their names are almost anagrams, they're of similar height and similar disposition.

[DevilDan]

Ansom learned to late that giving Hamster time is a bad idea... and then applied the lesson incorrectly by not waiting till Charlescomm could ally with him... Of course, Parson always had the trimancer option as a last resort, so there was little change in outcomes anyway.

[ftl]

Tramennis IS toeing a dangerous line because he might play exactly into what Parson wants - a quick strike really is the best tactic right now, talk later. I really hope it doesn't turn out that way - I'd like Tramennis to *actually* turn out to be a good leader, rather than being built up as a good leader and then walking into the same trap that a stupid leader would have.

The only way Tramennis would know that a quick strike is the best tactic is if someone, somehow had intelligence regarding Jack/Parson's conversation. That's the only reason we know that that's the scenario that Parson's assuming won't happen (and isn't planning for). Unfortunately for Tramennis, the best decision from his point of view happens to be the one with the worst outcome. And to be honest, with the additional information that Tramennis is getting, a quick strike actually looks like a bad option.

If you assume Charlie tells him everything we know he knows (which won't happen), all he would learn is that Charlie's plan was to trap Wanda and destroy her, and Jillian changed the plan and didn't attack Wanda. Charlie doesn't know why. Jillian specifically didn't say why. So from Tramennis's point of view, there's a large enemy force, above the city, and he has no idea why it's there. He'd have to try to gain some information.

Sure, I'll grant you that. Tramennis has good reasons for behaving the way he does.

But, at the end of the day, it's results that matter. If when all his said and done, all his fancy diplomacy does is get him croaked (or, at least, get him into another bad situation), where Slately's straightforward plan wouldn't have - I'd have a hard time agreeing that he's a good chief warlord, because ifs and buts (if only the world played out like he expected) are just excuses.

So I'm hoping that doesn't happen, because I'd like Tramennis to actually turn out competent, rather than just fitting the archetype of a competent character (makes jokes, not brawny, makes some smart deductions, but at the end of the day also walks right into the stupid traps - it's the big things where smarts matter, and yet we've only seen the little things).

So, in my mind, my preferred story would be something like thus:
1) Tramennis talks to Charlie. Gets something useful out of it that will help him in the coming fight. Don't know what.
2) As he's going up to talk to Ossomer, Parson springs his plan.
3) It's super effective!
4) But... Tramennis (possibly using the info he got form Charlie) manages to save Jetstone. It'll be shown that, had Tramennis not been the clever boy he is, Jetstone would have fallen; as it is, Jetstone survives to live another day, though Wanda does not croak. (However, I expect at least a few dustings, say, Ossomer. And maybe either Slately croaks AFTER naming Tram an heir (with schmuckers from charlie?) OR Tramennis croaks while saving Jetstone, or something. Or, Wanda croaks and decrypts herself. Or something.)

Basically, I want Tramennis's alleged smarts to actually *matter*. We've seen clever quips, and we've seen basic military competence (wiping out Ansom's former column), and we've seen some perhaps good ideas - but, as of yet, we have'nt seen any RESULTS that any halfway competent Jetstone warlord couldn't have gotten.

[name lips]

The funny thing is...

Since this is Erfworld, and time is completely relative, there is ALWAYS time to stop and think. You could spend hours, days, weeks of time planning out every one of your units moves, sending messages, working diplomacy, calculating odds... before ending your turn. And nobody else would ever notice the delay. Because it's your turn, and you can take as long as you like.

In fact, I get the sneaking suspicion that this is exactly the way Charlie plays. He even has the Arkendish, and I'll go out on a limb and say he never runs out of juice for communications. He has time every single turn to personally talk to each Archon, to answer every call, to call everybody he wants, to issue as many specific orders to individual Archons around Erf as he wants. He can micromanage to his hearts content.

So in this current situation... Trem's point is "why not do diplomacy?" It's not like we're in a rush. The invaders can't go anywhere. He can spend as much "time" as he wants calling people up, trying to figure out the deeper meaning of what's going on, analyzing strategy, making deals. He doesn't have to attack until he's good and ready.

There's no reason not to be careful and micro-manage your plans. Absolutely no reason to rush your turn.

And to sides not in the battlespace, this spent "time" was simply a blip. They never notice it passing.

(excepting, of course, this magic "TIME WARP" spell. That's gotta be ruffling some feathers, since it's never been possible before. Now suddenly there's thought of "rushing" your turn before somebody else ends it without your permission.)

[build6]

Stanley and Slately, both morons. something about the name?

i hadn't expected Tramennis to be so ... forceful w.r.t. Slately, though. Was he always like that, or is it because Tramennis has decided he has nothing to lose at this point?

[teratorn]

Jetstone's position is very delicate. If they win they still need to drastically reduce their army, for they can not support it, and they don't have the resources to replace any fireworks they spend to shoot down the dwagons.

I would be as cautious as Tram. His job is to save Jetstone, even if it means not to beat GK. Things are really weird. They went from a lose-lose scenario (even if they beat GK, Haggar would have conquered them) to a situation that can still be a lose-lose scenario: they beat GK but then Charlie, Transylvito, Faq or some other side with enough air power takes their city. I would not deplete my city's defences before knowing I wouldn't need them for next turn. Even if they're not up to conquer, bullying Jetstone for the pliers is within Transylvito's operating style.

Even if they can trust the other sides they need some sort of assurance that they will be rewarded if they manage to beat Wanda (let's say enough schmuckers to rebuilt their air defence). If I were Tram I'd say to the other sides: «I'm going to let them go if they leave the pliers with me, unless you make it worth for me to croak them all.»

Or, Wanda croaks and decrypts herself. Or something.)

How cool would it be that the only way to truly damage her would be something like cutting the arm holding the pliers?

And since my tinfoil hat is on: Parson offers to let a nearly defeated Jetstone survive if Trammenis turns.

[JustDoug]

I really think there's a dichotomy here between Erflworldians who are thinking, feeling creatures and those who behave like automatons, inflexible and preprogrammed for only a few situations, mostly war.

The AI for this game needs work. :)

[Menlo Marseilles]

I think it's worthwhile to note that Tramennis's approach is already deviating from Jetstone SOP. Even Ossomer would have stopped and offered perfunctory surrender terms - it's the Royal way. But Tramennis plans to talk - really talk, with the intent of having a conversation and finding out some stuff! At worst for him, Parson's plan will go forward as originally scheduled, in which case it'll have gone no more poorly than it would have under the usual way things are done. At best for him, something will slip - either from Charlie's mouth or Ossomer's - that will stop Parson's current gambit in its tracks, or mitigate it enough to fail/nearly fail when it was otherwise a sure thing.

In other words, while an alpha strike is a winning strategy on Jetstone's side, it's not like Tramennis's desire for diplomacy is going to be the thing that prevented that strategy from being chosen.

[Chris Goodwin]

The "turning traitor" part refers to Jillian being in league with Charlie, because Slately assumed Charlie was in league with Gobwin Knob.. "I expressly forbade any member of the Royal Crown Coalition from allying with Charlescomm."

Is it actually possible for a monarch to be a traitor? Jillian certainly didn't betray Faq and Erf Rulers are physics enforced absolute Rulers.

Traitor to the RCCII, I think is what is meant.

[gazes_also]

I think we're gonna at least see Parson put his plan into motion. The viewer has specifically been left out of what Parson is gonna do, all we know is there is some form of counter-attack and it will happen at the Parley. If Trem attacked and ruined that, we would never know what Parson had planned and how he intended to break the rules of Erf.

We don't know that. GK is off-turn. Can't counter-attack unless, well, attacked. A parley is by definition not an attack. What we know is that Parson wishes to exploit the parley ritual to the advantage of his side, possibly a surprise negotiation tactic.

The parley is going to be the crucial thing here for narrative reasons, I think. Issue one centred on Jillian, Wanda and Ansom and their particular love triangle. Issue two looks to be centred on Tramennis, Ossomer and Slately in a filial love triangle.

Is it possible that Tram and Parson might be able to cut through the ritual crap and actually talk and negotiate a truce? They are capable of it - but their overlords will be seriously ticked.