Book 2 – Text Updates 028

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:00 pm

Alexei P wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
spriteless wrote:Eh, wot? I thought the Prisoners' Dilemma (which the quoted thing ain't) can claim to be the cornerstone of morals. The quoted thing is pretty much petty self interest, nothing more.


I think he might be referring to the Tit For Tat program, the strategy that most consistently wins the Prisoner's Dilemma game. Basically, every time you meet a new player, you try cooperation, then, in each subsequent encounter, you treat that player the same as he treated you in your last encounter. The strategy is based not so much on self interest as on altruistic punishment: "if you screwed me last time, I'll take pains to screw you this time, even at a risk to myself".


Is this how we run our diplomacy in the U.S.? Should I hope that it is?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby spriteless » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:37 pm

Diplomacy in the US works by a scattershot of contradicting ideas and someone wanting to leave their mark by changing everything every 4 or 8 years. It is also a discussion for another forum.

Tit for tat is the moral system that keeps even dumb animals from wiping out their own species, and can grow into more sophisticated morals naturally; 'x hurt me so might hurt me again' turns into 'x hurt y so x might hurt me' which turns into 'x hurt y so x might hurt my kin' turns into 'x hurt y so might hurt society'. It exists in human guts, you see Jillian being bad and you want her punished for it, which will benefit you if others won't imitate her seeing her punishment. That second part isn't even conscious, but it is why it helps people. Failing the ability to punish people, we want to get away from them (so they aren't bad to us), and her updates disgust those who think she's bad. Failing this we gossip as though she will overhear us and feel to ashamed to continue being bad. It is all very evolutionarily sound and would help bring her in line with society if she weren't a fictional character. (I know just-so evolutionary theories are somewhere between armchair science and pseudo science. Stories and Parables are easier to remember than statistics.)

Jillian figures Charlie misbehaved to Sammy and hates him for it, failing the chance to punish him she wants the hell out of his clutches. Barbarian or Side, being betrayed can cost you everything. She knows she can't afford to try to reform him like she can her poor, misguided prince.

Tit for tat is a simple, incomplete, moral system, but it is the bones of any system that accounts for the consequences of not being moral.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby ParsonIsOP » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:47 pm

Chameon wrote:
timh wrote:
Tbh, while Parson did an awesome job thinking outside the box at TBFGK and the zombcano was impressive. Parson did not know, nor could he have known, that Wanda would be able to attune to the pliers and decrypt an entire army (including archons) I dont think you can add the "stealing archons from Charlie" thing to the list of "awesome things Parson did" because it kind of happend by accident.


How does Charlie know that? That's the issue. While yes, Parson had NO knowledge or control or even solid influence on the exact interaction, it did happen. Parson was Chief Warlord at the time. It could be argued that the zombcano thing caused Wanda to level up to a mythical extent, from Charlie's view anyway, which leads on to question CAN casters level during links? If they can, then where did the experience go?

Oh come on, Charlie isn't that stupid.

He knows the Arkenpliers went missing during that battle. And it's already common knowledge that Wanda is one of the "Attuned."
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:28 pm

spriteless wrote:Jillian figures Charlie misbehaved to Sammy and hates him for it, failing the chance to punish him she wants the hell out of his clutches. Barbarian or Side, being betrayed can cost you everything. She knows she can't afford to try to reform him like she can her poor, misguided prince.


"Hate?" We don't know what her emotions are except apparently unease. She just got a good illustration of just how ruthless Charlie is.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby CorrTerek » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:39 pm

"Hate?" We don't know what her emotions are except apparently unease. She just got a good illustration of just how ruthless Charlie is.


This. She doesn't really care about other sides -- she did more or less get Sammy killed, after all, -- but she's realizing that Charlie could just as easily turn nasty towards her and is quite willing to force people to do things that would keep her from getting what she wants, if getting what she wants doesn't further his agenda. Hence, she doesn't want to work with him.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:47 pm

CorrTerek wrote:
"Hate?" We don't know what her emotions are except apparently unease. She just got a good illustration of just how ruthless Charlie is.


This. She doesn't really care about other sides -- she did more or less get Sammy killed, after all, -- but she's realizing that Charlie could just as easily turn nasty towards her and is quite willing to force people to do things that would keep her from getting what she wants, if getting what she wants doesn't further his agenda. Hence, she doesn't want to work with him.


And she doesn't want to face exactly the same sort of extortion that Sammy faced. I'm sure Faq's current defenses are nowhere near as strong as Haggar's.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby CorrTerek » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:54 pm

And she doesn't want to face exactly the same sort of extortion that Sammy faced. I'm sure Faq's current defenses are nowhere near as strong as Haggar's.


Especially since Charlie probably paid for a good portion of those defenses. She's just now beginning to realize that you can't keep taking other people's money without having to pay it back somehow.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby Oberon » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:32 pm

Sieggy wrote:I think Charlie is one of those people who wants people working FOR him, not WITH him . . . In Book 1, Charlie refers several times to having Parson working FOR him. I doubt Parson would set still for that, given that he's a player, not a piece And I think Charlie has a REAL problem with that sort of attitude.
I think you need to put yourself in the setting and think about the mechanics a bit. Charlie is the ruler of a Side. The only people he works with are temp agency hires from the MK, and his clients. Every unit in his Side is just that: a unit in his Side. Hell, he doesn't even let himself be seen by most units in his Side... Charlie wanted Parson to turn to his Side. And as such Parson would not be working with Charlie, he would be working for Charlie. When you can disband with a thought, there is no such thing as an equal. Rulers on Erf can be kind and generous to their valued units, but when the chips fall the ruler is...the ruler.

Oddly, had Parson accepted Charlie would have had something he has never had before, to the knowledge of the Decrypted Archons: A Warlord. Chief or no.

Chameon wrote:
timh wrote:
Tbh, while Parson did an awesome job thinking outside the box at TBFGK and the zombcano was impressive. Parson did not know, nor could he have known, that Wanda would be able to attune to the pliers and decrypt an entire army (including archons) I dont think you can add the "stealing archons from Charlie" thing to the list of "awesome things Parson did" because it kind of happend by accident.


How does Charlie know that? That's the issue. While yes, Parson had NO knowledge or control or even solid influence on the exact interaction, it did happen. Parson was Chief Warlord at the time. It could be argued that the zombcano thing caused Wanda to level up to a mythical extent, from Charlie's view anyway, which leads on to question CAN casters level during links? If they can, then where did the experience go?
I think your question was rhetorical, but here goes anyway. Charlie knows it because Parson told him so. Parson, as a part of his ploy to get Charlie to sit out the turn and watch the action, told Charlie that GK would have the Arkenpliers by the end of the turn. And then it happened exactly as Parson said it would, except that Parson never mentioned that Charlie would be losing 80ish Archons. Charlie has to be impressed with Parson. Impressed, and maybe a little afraid.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby DevilDan » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:53 pm

Oberon wrote:I think your question was rhetorical, but here goes anyway. Charlie knows it because Parson told him so. Parson, as a part of his ploy to get Charlie to sit out the turn and watch the action, told Charlie that GK would have the Arkenpliers by the end of the turn. And then it happened exactly as Parson said it would, except that Parson never mentioned that Charlie would be losing 80ish Archons. Charlie has to be impressed with Parson. Impressed, and maybe a little afraid.


Charlie almost certainly doesn't believe that the zombie volcano was the Parson's original Plan A, though. For one thing, Parson already would have had the pliers without it--if Ansom hadn't rehired Charlescomm and the archons hadn't taken down Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 028

Postby valce » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:49 am

Actually I sort of agree there -- the whole volcano and losing-80-archons business is partly Charlie's own fault for trying to profiteer in the middle of Parson's fight. He knew Parson had a decent chance of winning, and he had to have realized that by getting involved he would seriously impact those chances. Granted, there's no way he could have known that Parson's final gambit would be a decrypted volcano, so we can't really blame Charlie, but it was still, partly, caused by his greed.
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