Book 2 – Page 38

[Welf von Ehrwald]

Suddenly I realize why Bland called that spell the one that should not be mentioned. Just one thing I'd like to mention: Every benefit of that spell is also available to all other sides with a thinkamancer and a turnamancer. If Charley figths the whole world, sooner or alter someone will copy that spell. And with enough enemies, there will be at least two thikamancers and two turnamancers, so Charley's enemy could use that spell daily, while he can't. Well, he could but as long as he's linked he can't use the dishes' other abilities and direct his (or her or its) empire.

On Haggar: Maybe it was foolish to leave the capital empty, maybe not. They have two casters there, and that#s probably all they have. If so, they are a small or medium sized nation, and would need most of their troops to get a shoot at defeating the weakened GK or Jetstone. Also, if they are surrounded only by allies like Jetstone or Hyatt, it's reasonably that enemy units would be spotted by their allies long before they could enter their territory. Or they have a lookamancer and didn't expect a powerful army of veiled units, as long as GK's column marched toward Spacerock. And in the end, maybe their calculations were correct and Charley simply bluffed.

[barawn]

A bit of both, but then Charlie and his Archons also have a bit of both... He has the numbers, straight up 600+ of them. And the multipliers? Well, Archons can have a random assignment from: Dance-Fight, Dollamancy, Foolamancy, Shockmancy, Thinkamancy, and Leadership. With 600+ Archons, I'm sure he has some with each ability to lend to the multiplication of force.

He does not have 600+ Archons available. He had ~120 Archons available, before he lost 30 of them at Gobwin Knob. He may have replenished those since then, but still, it's only 120 Archons. He can't recall the other ~480 - if he did so, he'd be unable to support all 600. He needed 30 to take a severely weakened Gobwin Knob (with no flying units), so while it's conceivable that he might've been able to take down Haggar if he wanted to, taking Haggar, Spacerock, and Transylvito is just silly-talk.

Sammy could've also possibly have been designated an Heir, which would've meant that they could've taken back Haggar afterwards. In any case, Charlie doesn't have the resources to maintain cities so sacking Haggar, Spacerock, and Transylvito would've just helped one of the other sides as well.

Charlies threat to Sammy was hollow. If he would've called it, Charlie would've just found a way to have Sammy eliminated.

[splintermute]

I don't think Charlie is as dependent on his archons' mercenary work as everyone seems to think he is. At least his archons believe that he derives most of his income from his telecommunications services rather than his mercenary contracts: "This allowed him to hire out to any side or barbarian in the world, and probably provided him more revenue than mercenary work. He was the telecom giant of Erfworld. This was the main thing he used the Arkendish for, but guessing its other powers was a favorite topic for the Archons." (Summer update 46)

This suggests that if he really wants to withdraw a large force of archons from mercenary work to form a strike force for a particular purpose, he can probably afford to do so. It also means that even if he really can eavesdrop on thinkagrams, he runs a huge, untenable risk if that secret is ever revealed - his entire business model would fall apart and he wouldn't be able to afford his precious archons anymore.

[DevilDan]

Charlie still wants most of the archons to be paying for themselves for the most part, I'd guess.

If he can find an alternative that is more cost-effective than a massive redeployment of archons (even paying for breaking contracts?), he'll work on it. And it would violate his current approach of keeping as low a profile as possible.

Actually, the fact that he allowed Sammy to even breathe his name to Tramennis is almost a "fridge moment" for me, given how careful Charlie is to manage information security and sequestration, no surprise given that it's his main stock in trade.

[Ansan Gotti]

On the KingWorld re-debate:

Look, it is at once incredibly powerful, and unclearly costed. Ending another side's turn in a turn-based game is HUGELY important, we can see in Book One that every single side's turn, practically, was a vital plot point lurking in the background. It's one of the things that made the story so different. It's not just that you are forced to use it when the enemy's forces are separated, even if there is no immediate small-scale tactical benefit, the potential large-scale strategic benefits are enormous. Oh great, now I can move all of my units to the weak point so we're ready to defend next turn. Or wow, I hit them early in the turn with the spell so their casters couldn't use their juice effectively, while I now get another turn's worth of juice for my own casters. Or yes, let's get my CW into the right place, or out of danger.

The only way the spell can be balanced is if the currently unclear costing is revealed to be extremely high. For example, we are mostly assuming it is only a two-caster link, but it might be a three-caster link (long-range via Arkendish) led by Charlie + another caster, which carries greater risks of separation, to the point where it is only worth risking in extremis. Or perhaps it can only be done with a master-class Thinkamancer with a master-class Turnamancer with a third caster, with the turnamancer in a capital's Tower, which heightens magic. Or perhaps the amount of juice it costs is directly proportional to the percentage of unmoved units on the turn's side that is to be ended. Or something else entirely.

I absolutely despise the spell, but I do trust that Rob is a good enough writer to cost this correctly, or at least some approximation of correctly. Whatever it does end up costing, it will need to answer neatly the question of, "Why doesn't some side just do this every other turn?" And I believe that question will indeed be answered, someday.

But in the meantime, we forumites speculate.

[Dr Pepper]

Agreed. If Erf were a true board game i can see each Arkentool as a card laid permanently in a player's resource deck. But Kingworld would be a use and discard card.

Player1: "...48, 49, 50. Ok, i've got all my dwagons in the airspace, now i'm going to attack."

Player2: (throws card down) "I don't think so!"

Player1: "You've got a turnamancer, but that card also requires a thinkamancer."

Player3: I have one, plus the Arkendish that gives Distant Link. I'm using them to support the spell.

Player1: Hey-- i thought you were neutral!

Player3: I was. And i will be again as soon as you're no longer an overwhelming threat.

But as you say, we should trust in Rob's storytelling skills. He's never let us down yet.

[Ansan Gotti]

Great analogy, DrP! I could totally see that being played out in a CCG.

[effataigus]

All that said, it seems more likely that we know the important stuff that we need to. Slately and Stanley aren't both uncroaked just because we don't see them, Erfworld hasn't suddenly switched to "medias res,"

Um, Erfworld has been in media res from the the first page. We start with an image of the elvises at work then jump to Stanley's defeat at Warchalking. Since then the main storyline has been interspersed with "how did we get there?" flashbacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_medias_res

Nah, Elvises are at the beginning, Warchalking was later, then Wanda's bad day... this is all in chronological order. I'm very comfortable with the idea that my poorly-thought through assertion is incorrect, but you haven't given a counter example. The closest things I recall to medias res are just panels that show a sub-story being told by a character in the main story... such as Stanley, Wanda, and Sizemore's recount of turns of yore. These are stories being told by characters in real time, so they aren't a break with the forward flow of time.

[Welf von Ehrwald]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_medias_res

Nah, Elvises are at the beginning, Warchalking was later, then Wanda's bad day... this is all in chronological order. I'm very comfortable with the idea that my poorly-thought through assertion is incorrect, but you haven't given a counter example. The closest things I recall to medias res are just panels that show a sub-story being told by a character in the main story... such as Stanley, Wanda, and Sizemore's recount of turns of yore. These are stories being told by characters in real time, so they aren't a break with the forward flow of time.

I guess that depends how we define the story; if we see Parson's story as the main narrative, then it wasn't in medias res; if we see the whole war of the tools, then it was. That one was put in motion when Stanley attuned and Wanda received her prediction. Most conflicts developed before Parson's arrival: the new titanic mandate by Stanley and the forming of the RCC, the love triangle with Wanda-Jillian-Ansom (and Jack), and Jillian's vendetta against Stanley.

[CorrTerek]

I absolutely despise the spell, but I do trust that Rob is a good enough writer to cost this correctly, or at least some approximation of correctly. Whatever it does end up costing, it will need to answer neatly the question of, "Why doesn't some side just do this every other turn?" And I believe that question will indeed be answered, someday.

I more or less agree with your points. I guess I just tend to give an author the benefit of the doubt when it comes to such things.

[Ansan Gotti]

I more or less agree with your points. I guess I just tend to give an author the benefit of the doubt when it comes to such things.

Given the excellence of the story thus far, I think that is an eminently reasonable decision.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Oh Titans, what have I wrought?

Look, next update can be Charlie doing both Kingworld and Jacobin Revolution (makes all units berserk and denounce each other as traitors to the revolution) spells, while showing Parson that Charlescomm has already thought of the counter to Parson's counter to Charlie's counter to Parson's current plan. This happening while in distant peaceful lands the We Love You Oh You Radiant One daily sermon in honour of Her Exhaltedness Queen Jillian takes place.

And I will ignore all that and gleefully just put two thumbs up to compliment the smashing depictions of interiors and Maggie's deadpan delivery of worse news.

PS: I'm wondering now how many pages now Blandco's avatar has not had the situtation change under it yet.

Way too long. The Dwagon is getting the munchies from all that wing flapping, and there's food just above its head.

[CorrTerek]

Oh Titans, what have I wrought?

It's okay, worse things have started for less.

[effataigus]

*blathers*

*makes an illuminating point regarding possible perspectives*

Yay hijacked threads!

Good point! I was definitely figuring the narrative is regarding Parson's role.

Of course, all I was really trying to say is, since we got involved, time has only flowed forward except when someone tells a story in the present (also except certain text updates). Tis is a moot point anyway though... in retrospect, nobody was suggesting that the Parson/Wanda conversation happened before the Jillian/Charlie/Tramennis conversation.

All of this talk of editing thinkagrams has given me a great idea on how to win arguments in forums!

Wow, you're right, {your name}. Jillian really is an interesting/obnoxious character, Kingworld is balanced/broken, Parson is definitely in love with Wanda/Maggie/Sizemore/Bogroll, Charlie is a tuna/dish/magnificent-bastard/manipulative-bastard/woman/Archon, and the Arkenhammer/pliers/dish is totally equal/superior to the Arkenhammer/pliers/dish.

[DevilDan]

Can any thinkamancer short of Charlie pull off Kingworld?

(Way back when, I theorized that only Charlie would be able to form a four-mancer link...)

[Ansan Gotti]

Another thought. Maybe the Arkendish is not Charlie (as some have theorized), but maybe the Arkendish can act as a thinkamancer, all on its own.

So if Charlie is also a thinkamancer, that would equal a tri-caster link (Charlie-Arkendish-Vanna). Usable at range.

Wow, that would be powerful.

Or maybe Charlie just hired another caster for the third leg. If it's even a tri-caster link, which we don't know.

[Icarus]

Has Charlies turn finished? Just thinking Parson could loan those units in Jetstone airspace, and maybe pay through his teeth to move them out of there. Probably not in Charlies best interest... but he could try... or at least do that with another neutral party(if this was a game with non-plot involved sides, or Hagger maybe).

[CorrTerek]

Can any thinkamancer short of Charlie pull off Kingworld?

That's what I was wondering. We haven't been given an answer either way, so to me saying that Kingworld is another one of Charlie's powers seems kind of premature. We also haven't seen what a "normal" Master-class Thinkamancer can do -- just what Maggie can do -- hence we have no real basis of comparison for Charlie's mastery of Thinkamancy.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Stanley would be infuriated at having to crack open a book to hear a message.

Demonstrably, not if it's a magic book that does the work for him.

Thinkamancy mastery seems to be a fine field for cracking codes.

I would expect cryptography to be mathamancy - which might be another reason Charlie is so keen on Parson's bracer.

We don't know if Charlie has been able to hack into the eyebooks themselves or just the communications between them. It may be that a link between a mathamancer, foolamancer and thinkamancer could produce an eyebook that requires a link-up between a thinkamancer and a mathamancer to eavesdrop on. Though hats might be easier to obtain.

Archons fall to anti-air just like anything else.

In fact, they seem to fall more easily than many other things. When Ansom hired Charlie after dropping the pliers, it took one ray of zappage to take out the uncroaked archon, but multiple zap rays to take out each of the uncroaked unipegataurs (admittedly, we don't know if that was overkill).

[Joe22c.]

Hmm...

We haven't seen Vinny in a while. I wonder what he's up to.