Book 2 – Page 38

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby ftl » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:05 pm

Oberon wrote:One final thought. Parson's doubt about his plan: "It's a cheat, and it may not work." How hard is it to input into the bracer: Will my plan work? Not "be successful", just work, as in not be labeled a "cheat" by the rules and disallowed, just allowed to be used at all. The result should be binary, either 0% or 100%. I'm just not understanding doubts about things being usable when you can check in advance...


I didn't think that his doubts were about whether the rules would allow it, just about whether it would be successful. Perhaps it was an unfortunate turn of phrase if it gave that impression unintentionally.
ftl
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby splintermute » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:18 pm

ftl wrote:
Oberon wrote:One final thought. Parson's doubt about his plan: "It's a cheat, and it may not work." How hard is it to input into the bracer: Will my plan work? Not "be successful", just work, as in not be labeled a "cheat" by the rules and disallowed, just allowed to be used at all. The result should be binary, either 0% or 100%. I'm just not understanding doubts about things being usable when you can check in advance...


I didn't think that his doubts were about whether the rules would allow it, just about whether it would be successful. Perhaps it was an unfortunate turn of phrase if it gave that impression unintentionally.

If the plan violates the "rules" of Erf, the bracer may not be able to provide an answer - it could just say something inconclusive like: "Error" or "50%" (i.e. it'll happen or it won't :) )
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:35 pm

splintermute wrote:I'm sick and tired of people accusing Kingworld of being something Rob pulled out of his ass to "salvage the plot". Yes, it may be totally OP and game imbalancing and raises all sorts of questions about the extent of Charlie's powers and the game mechanics of Erf, etc., but Kingworld is clearly something that Rob had planned from the very beginning of Book 2 (or at least from page 4 onwards) and is an integral component, rather than peripheral DEM, of the plot, which is why I'm willing to give Rob the benefit of the doubt until at least the entire Book 2 situation plays out.


I'm sorry, but who is saying THAT? I've seen people (myself included) who say they didn't like the mechanic and that it felt overpowered until such time that we could see the cost (and I do trust that it will be at least in the neighborhood of properly-costed), but I haven't seen many (any?) people claiming this was a boop-pull.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby joosy » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:38 pm

The people who complain (not critique) about Kingworld being overpowered or an ass pull are probably the same ones who threw down The Fellowship of the Rings in disgust when Saruman pulled the whole "weather control" gambit from his nether regions and forced the Fellowship from the pass and into Moria.

The also probably yelled"Hack!" and wrote angry letters to George Lucas about how overpowered it was when Vader deflected a blaster bolt with his hand in Empire Strikes Back.

I imagine they got their knickers in a bunch and stormed out of the theater when in "As You Like It", Shakespeare suddenly brings in a god to resolve the issues between the four pairs of lovers.

.. on the upside at least they aren't misusing Deus Ex anymore :)
joosy
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:30 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby CorrTerek » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:53 pm

But as an intellectual exercise, which two are you linking to thinkamancy? Maybe a better question is, which three are you not linking to thinkamancy, and why?


The bi-mancer (possibly tri-mancer) link I'm attributing to Charlie's Thinkamancy. Long-range linkups are completely new, and while it's possible that a Master-class Thinkamancer could do the same, we don't know that. We just know that Charlie can.

Kingworld I'm also attributing to Charlie's Thinkamancy. I simply don't see how it would have been possible without him. Again, perhaps a Master-class Thinkamancer could do the same, but there were no Master-class Thinkamancers available at Spacerock. So without Charlie, there would've been no Kingworld. This is, of course, putting aside the fact that we know almost nothing about how Kingworld works.

The Western Giants and the Gobwin disappearance are related to Charlie, but we don't know how he's doing what he's doing. If he's using extortion or bribes, well, anyone can do that. If we find out he's using some sort of Thinkamancy power to switch alliances and turn off the spawn points for Gobwins, then that's definitely hax. We just don't know enough for me to make a call at this point.

Lastly, eavesdropping on Thinkamancy. It hasn't been confirmed (yet), so we don't know for sure he can do it. It's implied, sure, but then again not everyone who read that update got that implication. So it's still up in the air.

The point I'm trying to make is that it does matter how Charlie's doing what he's doing. If he's pulling some of these stunts without using the Dish's powers, then they can be emulated by other sides. All Parson needs to do is figure out how and level the playing field.

If he is using the Dish, well, that gives him a massive advantage over the other sides. It also makes the Dish look like a classic case of Combo Platter Powers.
Image
CorrTerek
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby splintermute » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:59 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
splintermute wrote:I'm sick and tired of people accusing Kingworld of being something Rob pulled out of his ass to "salvage the plot". Yes, it may be totally OP and game imbalancing and raises all sorts of questions about the extent of Charlie's powers and the game mechanics of Erf, etc., but Kingworld is clearly something that Rob had planned from the very beginning of Book 2 (or at least from page 4 onwards) and is an integral component, rather than peripheral DEM, of the plot, which is why I'm willing to give Rob the benefit of the doubt until at least the entire Book 2 situation plays out.


I'm sorry, but who is saying THAT? I've seen people (myself included) who say they didn't like the mechanic and that it felt overpowered until such time that we could see the cost (and I do trust that it will be at least in the neighborhood of properly-costed), but I haven't seen many (any?) people claiming this was a boop-pull.

Oberon wrote:Charlie has more than enough demonstrated powers to be more than a match for any known force on Erf. He does not need any more, nor do any more contribute to the plot in a meaningful way, especially if they are pulled out to solve problems presented by the plot (I'm looking at you, Kingworld). It's like this: "Oh no, Wanda has enough forces to have a decent odds chance to end Jetstone, but Jetstone has a further role to play, and so does Wanda. And if she engages either she or Jillian is likely to die, and we can't have that. But how can we resolve this dilemma? I know, Charlie will use two new powers, a remote caster link and a new spell, to END THE GK TURN! Cool!" Except, not cool.

There's a long string of Kingworld complaints in the forums going all the way back to page 21, that seems to be divided into a mechanics camp (Kingworld is OP; Kingworld is improperly costed; etc.) and a boop-pull camp (Rob totally pulled Kingworld out of his ass), and occasionally a combination of the two. The implication in Oberon's post is that Rob wrote himself into a corner, and used Kingworld to pull himself out, rather than planning Kingworld all along (as suggested by Wanda and Jillian's costumes dating as far back as page 4, or perhaps even the introduction of Vanna, dating all the way back to Queen Bea's destruction in the summer updates).
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:10 pm

splintermute wrote:There's a long string of Kingworld complaints in the forums going all the way back to page 21, that seems to be divided into a mechanics camp (Kingworld is OP; Kingworld is improperly costed; etc.) and a boop-pull camp (Rob totally pulled Kingworld out of his ass), and occasionally a combination of the two. The implication in Oberon's post is that Rob wrote himself into a corner, and used Kingworld to pull himself out, rather than planning Kingworld all along (as suggested by Wanda and Jillian's costumes dating as far back as page 4, or perhaps even the introduction of Vanna, dating all the way back to Queen Bea's destruction in the summer updates).


Huh. Maybe I've just been blocking them out. Well, in any event, I agree with you in that regard, and I don't agree with that latter camp AT ALL.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby JustDoug » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:40 pm

splintermute wrote:There's a long string of Kingworld complaints in the forums going all the way back to page 21, that seems to be divided into a mechanics camp (Kingworld is OP; Kingworld is improperly costed; etc.) and a boop-pull camp (Rob totally pulled Kingworld out of his ass), and occasionally a combination of the two. The implication in Oberon's post is that Rob wrote himself into a corner, and used Kingworld to pull himself out, rather than planning Kingworld all along (as suggested by Wanda and Jillian's costumes dating as far back as page 4, or perhaps even the introduction of Vanna, dating all the way back to Queen Bea's destruction in the summer updates).


The complaints are no doubt divided between the people that are playing the (non-existent) game and those others who are reading the graphic novel. The Gamer crowd might have some reasonable doubts about what this does to the (non-existent) game balance. I'm sure it'll be codified and nerfed if needed when the game goes to market, published by SJG/Metagaming. ;) The complaining readers, on the other hand, are probably just feeling pouty about their favored prognostications concerning the plot not coming about as they had scheduled and going in a direction differing from the one they had planned.
JustDoug
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:36 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Sieggy » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:37 pm

Has it occurred to anyone that Charlie was communicating with one (or more) of his Archons rather than listening in to Parson & Wanda? You know, issuing orders, something along the lines of 'bushwhack that crazy bitch at earliest opportunity', or offering his services to the next city on Jillian's hit parade, or 'OK, now's the time for the Secret Gobwin Army to jump GK', or having a chat with the Giants to give Jillian a warm welcome when she gets home . . ? I have a feeling that Charlie's a bit *miffed* with Jillian right about now, and not feeling kindly disposed towards her.

I think it'd be just like Rob to give us all a teaser to get us running in the wrong direction while he does something both straightforward and unexpected. Sneaky . . . I can admire that in a man . . .
The Truth Will Set You Free. But First It Will Piss You Off.
User avatar
Sieggy
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:14 pm

joosy wrote:The people who complain (not critique) about Kingworld being overpowered or an ass pull are probably the same ones who threw down The Fellowship of the Rings in disgust when Saruman pulled the whole "weather control" gambit from his nether regions and forced the Fellowship from the pass and into Moria.


Not quite the same thing. The book makes it clear that Cadharas has a will of it's own. It was pretty dicey if it could be crossed at all in the first place (Aragorn and Gandalf argued the point, if you recall). Saruman's sorcery really did little more than give it a nudge to make it even more inhospitable than it usually is. Which is alot.

The movie played up Saruman's role in that event. It wasn't that involved in the book.
DoctorJest
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:33 pm

JustDoug wrote:The complaining readers, on the other hand, are probably just feeling pouty about their favored prognostications concerning the plot not coming about as they had scheduled and going in a direction differing from the one they had planned.
Now this is fantasy. Please be so kind as to dig up a single one of my "prognostications concerning the plot" which has been dashed by events "going in a direction differing from the one [I] had planned." I'll wait right here for you. Don't be long, now!

Funny, it appears as though you've made something up out of whole cloth, and now you're all pouty because things have gone in a different direction from the one you prognosticated.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby DevilDan » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:20 pm

"Need to be done?" I can't respond properly, I doubt I every could. In the meantime, this is going to give me fuel for many a chuckle, guffaw, and outright laugh.

Nothing in this comic "needed" to be done, from the first word on the first page it's what Rob has wanted to do.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:52 pm

splintermute wrote:The implication in Oberon's post is that Rob wrote himself into a corner, and used Kingworld to pull himself out,
The implication in Oberon's post is that Charlie is already a formidable opponent, and does not in the slightest need to have additional powers attributed to him in order to continue to present himself as such. Thus, Kingworld was quite simply not needed, as Charlie has previously established powers which could have accomplished the same result without any need to add to Charlie's arsenal of powers. Escalation of powers and frequent reversals of fortune do tend to wear thin.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby splintermute » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:58 pm

Oberon wrote:
splintermute wrote:The implication in Oberon's post is that Rob wrote himself into a corner, and used Kingworld to pull himself out,
The implication in Oberon's post is that Charlie is already a formidable opponent, and does not in the slightest need to have additional powers attributed to him in order to continue to present himself as such. Thus, Kingworld was quite simply not needed, as Charlie has previously established powers which could have accomplished the same result without any need to add to Charlie's arsenal of powers. Escalation of powers and frequent reversals of fortune do tend to wear thin.

Yes, but if he didn't put in Kingworld, how would he have gotten Jillian to say "Let's do the time warp", which is what all the pop culture references in book 2 up to that point had been leading up to?
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:08 pm

splintermute wrote:Yes, but if he didn't put in Kingworld, how would he have gotten Jillian to say "Let's do the time warp", which is what all the pop culture references in book 2 up to that point had been leading up to?
Kingworld = Voodoo Shark. "The detail is introduced, but it's still out of nowhere." "A piss poor setup for a Chekhov's Gun."
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby CorrTerek » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:56 pm

After re-reading the description of Voodoo Shark, I'm not entirely sure that's an accurate description for Kingworld. What was the plot hole Kingworld was supposed to hand wave? And how is Kingworld itself a plot hole?

Isn't it better to wait until the story is finished before labeling parts of the story? That way you at least have all the data you need.
Image
CorrTerek
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:15 pm

CorrTerek wrote:Isn't it better to wait until the story is finished before labeling parts of the story? That way you at least have all the data you need.
There is no need to wait to understand that Charlie is being given additional powers that he just does not need. No additional data need be awaited to recognize that escalating Charlie's potency is not required. The plot does not scream for this, and in fact I believe that the plot would be far better served by NOT giving Charlie "whatever additional power needed at the time the plot called for it", rather than simply advancing the plot in a more rational and believable fashion.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby CorrTerek » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:07 am

There is no need to wait to understand that Charlie is being given additional powers that he just does not need.


And you know this how, exactly? Perhaps the author is building a foundation for things that come later. You're judging an incomplete story based on how you think it will turn out and what you think is needed.
Image
CorrTerek
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby splintermute » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:08 am

Oberon wrote:
CorrTerek wrote:Isn't it better to wait until the story is finished before labeling parts of the story? That way you at least have all the data you need.
There is no need to wait to understand that Charlie is being given additional powers that he just does not need. No additional data need be awaited to recognize that escalating Charlie's potency is not required. The plot does not scream for this, and in fact I believe that the plot would be far better served by NOT giving Charlie "whatever additional power needed at the time the plot called for it", rather than simply advancing the plot in a more rational and believable fashion.

What if Charlie is being built up as the final villain, and it turns out he's a Titan/dungeonmaster, and his only power is "whatever it takes to keep the game going," or "whatever it takes to keep the game interesting," as it seemed to be in Book 1?
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 38

Postby I<3ChocolateMilk » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:11 am

Oberon wrote:There is no need to wait to understand that Charlie is being given additional powers that he just does not need. No additional data need be awaited to recognize that escalating Charlie's potency is not required. The plot does not scream for this, and in fact I believe that the plot would be far better served by NOT giving Charlie "whatever additional power needed at the time the plot called for it", rather than simply advancing the plot in a more rational and believable fashion.

So, I'm confused. Is your problem with Charlie or with Kingworld and, more importantly, would you feel the same about Kingworld if it hadn't been Charlie in the linkup?
Because, the way I see it, the plot was already driving itself towards Kingworld in the costume setup (the Columbia/Jillian outfit specifically is worn only during the song, The Time Warp, at least in terms of Columbia having a singing part - it's worn again through the introduction of Eddie, I think, but that really just involves her running around and squealing a lot), so one way or the other it would suggest that Kingworld was going to happen, at least in hindsight.

Oh, and rational/believable? We are talking about Erfworld here. It has its own physics, its own laws - it's fiction. It would be pretty arrogant of us (and quite sad) to assume that every single world ever dreamed up behaves exactly like ours...so, complain about it all you want, but this isn't our world, and it isn't our dream. We're just lucky to be witnessing someone else's vision. Don't like it? Jog on, then. But don't sit here and try to dictate to the rest of us what can or cannot, or what should or should not be. We are in no better a position than you to change the fact that this is someone else's dream/vision.

Kingworld happened. Charlie was involved. It's done. Now either suck it up, or go read something written in a more rational and believable fashion.
User avatar
I<3ChocolateMilk
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:43 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Lipkin, Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest