Book 2 – Page 38

[Ansan Gotti]

As an aside, I think it's safe to assume that most larger sides have thinkamancers or hire them when they're at war.

I don't think that's true, given Jetstone hasn't been using one in probably the most important conflict(s) of its existence, relying on Hat messages instead.

[mhangman]

Does anyone feel that Parson care much about "Wanda". I think he fall in love with that crazy woman. And he can give whatever command he wants.

[Raza]

I've long thought that Charlie's mastery of thinkamancy extended to locating and possibly wiretapping thinkagrams. See this thread for my case.

Doesn't seem that extreme a power for an arkentool, anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if Wanda could decrypt and thereby hijack another side's uncroaked. Arkentools granting uber-mastery over a school of magic seems to be their largest common theme.

I also don't agree that this suddenly means that Charlescomm could and should have ended Gobwin Knob at any prior time. The strategic implications of having previous thinkagrams tapped have been noted, and so far not that big. Charlescomm may have the raw power to take out GK, but that applies in reverse too if you match GK's raw unit count vs the golems said to defend Charlie's capital. It's just not strategically managable to have all your forces in one place doing one thing like that, especially if you play like Charlie.

[dirocyn]

I agree that listening in on Parson and Wanda's Thinkagram is a very possible interpretation of the scene, but think about it- how ridiculously overpowered is that? That Charlie, who is currently in his own capital, can listen in on a Thinkagram between two wildly different locations that he had no way of knowing would happen. I mean hell, he can't even know that Parson is Chief Warlord right now, let alone that he'd be making a call to Wanda. And he doesn't even have any of his Archons in either hex to act as a proxy. If that's the case, that means that the Arkendish lets him monitor all Thinkagrams anywhere ever, which is a pretty terrifying prospect.

Charlie had archons with Sammy of Hagar, he'd know that Ansom's column was destroyed (that's pretty obvious). It's an easy guess that, after the Kingworld spell and loss of a chief warlord, Wanda's force would need to communicate with Gobwin Knob. It's no guess at all that the call will be made by Gobwin Knob's thinkmancer, Maggie. So Charlie knows what phone number to watch for. This is a capitol fight, probably the most important battle on Erf this turn--which makes this the most important phone call to tap. And--if it is true he's wiretapping GK as many have interpreted--this also shows Charlie can only do that one thing at a time. Charlie could be listening to any ONE thinkagram anywhere, if he's not also talking on the phone. That's about as creepy as J. Edgar Hoover but it's not so ridiculously overpowered.

Anyway, great story, great writing--I love all this strategy stuff. Also, I wanna give kudos for the artwork, this is great. I particularly like the way Parson keeps getting skinnier, but it's not all at once. He's still overweight, but no longer obese. Very well done.

[Ansan Gotti]

Does anyone feel that Parson care much about "Wanda". I think he fall in love with that crazy woman. And he can give whatever command he wants.

I think Parson is a mixture of creeped-out, fascinated, repulsed and vaguely attracted to Wanda.

[Alexei P]

I think Parson is a mixture of creeped-out, fascinated, repulsed and vaguely attracted to Wanda.

Who isnt?

[ftl]

Also, I'm going to post here to voice a little disappointment with this update. I don't think we got much out of it - neither action NOR characterization, and I thought the dialogue was unusually tacky.

The first three panels don't tell us anything. We already know Jill and Tramennis were going to chat with Charlie; the last panel seems to imply that he's listening in on the thinkagram, which I hope isn't true, because Charlie doesn't need to be *more* overpowered, he's formidable enough as it is.

(I can, unfortunately, imagine a possible reason why he's being portrayed as such. If Rob intends this book to be readable standalone, then he can't rely on the characterization of Charlie as a mysterious power with powers that was done before - he might be doing the exact same thing as he did with the Charlie hacking the eyebooks, just repeated again for the benefit of those who didn't read book 1 at the expense of those who did.)

We learn little new about the plan. Just vague adjectives describing the kind of things Parson might think up - simple, ugly, messy. That it's dangerous and that he'll probably lose most of the force - not terribly new either.

Two panels worth of Parson, saying "I hope it works." Really?

Even the conversation with Maggie seems like it falls flat. I think most readers would interpret Parson's "I hope she's right" to mean "I hope we win" - somehow this confused Maggie, though, leading her to ask what could perhaps be a deep question, which Parson responds to with a simple clarification of what he meant.

Maybe it's because Rob tried to put too many things into one page? The conversation between Jill and Tram and Charlie didn't end up fleshed out - that looked like it could have been the start of a pretty good whole page, showing what Jill and Tram want to talk to him about, but went nowhere. The discussion of the plan between Wanda and Parson could have been good, but it didn't come to any sort of conclusion (i.e. anything about what the plan actually is), but instead jumped to a discussion of Fate - which is a great topic for sure, but was not at all done justice. Parson obviously doesn't want to talk about it at the moment (preoccupied with fighting the battle) and so the topic gets a brush-off.

But yeah, in retrospect, not the greatest Erfworld page. And I'm not usually one to be too critical, I think.

[Wender]

As an aside, I think it's safe to assume that most larger sides have thinkamancers or hire them when they're at war.

And the most numerous, hire-able thinkamancers are... Archons!

That's part of why I don't think this is such a big deal, powerful though it is. Charlie already handles a disproportionately large amount of Erfworld's Thinkamancy traffic; there is at least one secure alternative to Thinkamancy (hat magic), and; if he listens in on a call, it appears to take his full concentration, potentially costing him business and information. He'd only want to do it when necessary, and now counts as necessary. This is a critical battle, Jillian failed to take out Wanda, and Parson just got involved.

I think the odds that Charlie orders Jillian back to Jetstone are high. I think the odds that Jillian makes Wanda an offer--under less favorable terms to Wanda--are high. Given Parson's direct order, the odds that Wanda joins up with Jillian, at least provisionally, are quite high. Jack might, as well, and that would leave Parson with... the Arkenhammer. And a bunch of dwagons.

It's almost certainly the most powerful weapon there is in battle, but it also has unexplored powers. The first thing we ever saw it do was polymorph nuts into pigeons. If Parson is made to really concentrate on what the hammer can do, he may yet be able to rebuild his side's strength. The rub, of course, is that that means dealing with Stanley.

Even the conversation with Maggie seems like it falls flat. I think most readers would interpret Parson's "I hope she's right" to mean "I hope we win" - somehow this confused Maggie, though, leading her to ask what could perhaps be a deep question, which Parson responds to with a simple clarification of what he meant.

Maggie essentially asked him if he bought into Wanda's worldview. Parson demurred, and then gave a direct order to Wanda that, perhaps unwittingly, plays directly into her worldview. He hasn't fully comprehended what Wanda will hear when he says "by any means," even though Wanda flat-out told him her outlook in the aftermath of the volcano, and so he didn't hear Maggie's question as a warning.

Parson is still largely in denial about who he's dealing with and what he's dealing in. And I agree with others above that he's a little too sweet for Wanda to understand exactly what she is and what she will do, even though she's told him outright. Guys can be dense that way.

[splintermute]

Even the conversation with Maggie seems like it falls flat. I think most readers would interpret Parson's "I hope she's right" to mean "I hope we win" - somehow this confused Maggie, though, leading her to ask what could perhaps be a deep question, which Parson responds to with a simple clarification of what he meant.

I'm pretty sure Maggie wasn't confused - she was just making a witty comment to try to get a laugh out of Parson.

[Alexei P]

Even the conversation with Maggie seems like it falls flat. I think most readers would interpret Parson's "I hope she's right" to mean "I hope we win" - somehow this confused Maggie, though, leading her to ask what could perhaps be a deep question, which Parson responds to with a simple clarification of what he meant.

I'm pretty sure Maggie wasn't confused - she was just making a witty comment to try to get a laugh out of Parson.

She also looks strangely sad when Parson answers her. What's with that?

[Whispri]

I really like that picture of Wanda.

As for Charlie, well the threat of him making everything hopeless again is looming and that is unwelcome. But against that, he may be playing ghastly music at J & T while they wait, that would make up for a lot.

With regards to Parson's order: Jillian has no heir, Wanda could destroy Faq with a stroke of her Pliers. And thanks to that order, she may have to.

[Dr Pepper]

What's up with Wanda? Her signamancy is showing her as almost wholesome.

[MonteCristo]

Considering how charlie was able to hack the eyebooks, and is speculated to even go so far as being able to read Parsons notes, i don't see how thinkagram hacking is such a shocker... i mean unless charlie has an eyebook himself, hacking them should be considered an even greater feat than eavesdropping on a thinkagram. Not to mention the power still seems rather tame compared to being able to resurrect your enemies into 100% loyal, full powered soldiers with 0 upkeep...

besides, this can help keep up the suspense... little trope in writing; when the readers know what a character is planning, the plan is bound to fail, but when the plan is kept a secret from the readers, then it is bound to succeed... right now we have just the right amount of ambiguity to not be sure how things will play out in the upcoming fight... we don't know Parsons plan, but at the same time we have the possibility that Charlie knows the plan and will be able to advise Trem

[Dr Pepper]

Awesome update, as always. Art is really top-notch. I note that although Parson's clothes changed to a Roger-Wilco-esque uniform when he spoke to Charlie in book 1, the royals don't seem to have to endure that indignity. Makes me wonder if the uniform Parson was deposited in to was some deliberate jab from Charlie. Or maybe royals just get better treatment due to their status.

Parson's clothes were changed to Mork's outfit. The visual was a near perfect copy of the scenes in which Mork communicated with his unseen superiors back on his home planet.

[justamessenger]

Also, I'm going to post here to voice a little disappointment with this update. I don't think we got much out of it - neither action NOR characterization, and I thought the dialogue was unusually tacky.

I can definitely see your perspective on this, but I think this page is important more for what is NOT expressly said...for what is implied. It also heightens the tension which is never a bad thing.

[Elhoim]

I don't know... Not sure I like him being able to know everything. First the Kingworld spell, which was never fully explained (limits, why it wasn't used before, etc.) and now this... I'm not saying they are DEM, but it sure feels so.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Whoa. So much to respond to. Look, if you're not quoted here, but you were talking to me, just assume I'm trying to fit a response to you too in here somehow. (And not necessarily merely under a quote from you, if in fact you are quoted).

I think BLAND's main point was that Charlie had the means to crush GK, had he so wished (to support the "Charlie is way too strong" argument), regardless of whether or not it was convenient for him to do so. I tend to agree. Although to be fair, even with the (as of yet hypothetical) ability to eavesdrop on any Thinkagram at will, that Dish ain't got nothing on Wanda's "steamroll you with your own mooks for free" thing (which is my pet peeve). Most sides don't even have thinkamancers, presumably. So far in the story, we've seen only 2 that have one on hand.

Thank you, but I'm actually bolder in my claims.

It's been said that Charlie waited for Royals to be desperate. That happened once already, yet Charlie did not interfere. There's a lot of rationalization for that thrown around (some link spell would not have been effective, no diplomatic contact, biding time ...). These ring hollow to me. Charlie wants business, and would gladly have made it so that business flowed back as usual, as soon as possible.

This may not even have required GK to be put down (but a boom head-of-state-shot is also not to be excluded), but whatever it would have required, it seems to me to have been within Charlie's grasp.

After all, Charlescomm, some people claim, considered offering Kingworld free of charge. Even if it wouldn't have saved Unaroyal, it would have made it possible to improve reputation among royals.

Plus, a side with such good intelligence and fast versatile units could have loads of tricks to do. As one example, an archon relay on Unaroyal royalty. So many options when you're nigh omnipotent. And with connections in the MK, and a sympathetic caster in one of the kingdoms, it's weird that nothing AT ALL was tried.

At Unaroyal however, Wanda had an army that was made up of THOUSANDS... and your assumption that they did not have a lot of archers, is purely that, an assumption... baseless in fact

I base it on the apparent lack of Archers when attacking Jetstone. You'd think a few would have been useful, whatever the real plan for that siege would have been.

Dwagons aren't natural allies - they're feral creatures. There's no reason to assume that because he can influence one he can automatically influence the other.

Charlie can hack Eyebooks, and MonteCristo believes that therefore hacking Thinkagrams is not that shocking; oh wait, you believe the same. Similarly, Charlie can influence natural allies; feral creatures that don't even have an allegiance to begin with- not that big a stretch.

All your other complaints right now have nothing to do with the specific possible "revelation" in this page - they're just a tired rehash of the arguments you raised after the Kingworld spell. They were fun to discuss then, but they're boring and repetitive now.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but even sorryer that the reason why I made these complaints then didn't change. Charlie's still a way too convenient plot device when it comes to providing an opposition for Parson.

The strategic implications of having previous thinkagrams tapped have been noted, and so far not that big.

Not sure what this means. The ability to eavesdrop on your opponents has always been a prized asset.

Considering how charlie was able to hack the eyebooks, and is speculated to even go so far as being able to read Parsons notes, i don't see how thinkagram hacking is such a shocker.. {snip}

I remember saying, in the first post here, that having this ability makes sense in some ways. That doesn't change the basic fact, that Charlie is waaaay too powerful and at once very capricious in wielding that power, essentially only using it when it's convenient to the plot.

Do I need to qualify this by saying "assuming Charlie hacked Parson"? 'Cause that's the hypothetical scenario that I'm saying I would not like.

besides, this can help keep up the suspense... little trope in writing; when the readers know what a character is planning, the plan is bound to fail, but when the plan is kept a secret from the readers, then it is bound to succeed... right now we have just the right amount of ambiguity to not be sure how things will play out in the upcoming fight... we don't know Parsons plan, but at the same time we have the possibility that Charlie knows the plan and will be able to advise Trem

Because God forbid Trem could have created a good counter plan all by himself. Especially since, supposedly, Jetstone is already at such an advantage that even Parson considers his plan unlikely to succeed. Seriously, do we need Charlie to provide yet more muscle flexing? Can't we believe that some warlord in Erfworld would manage an efficient response to a desperate GK?

[SteveMB]

Umm...did Parson really just give an order to Wanda to stay alive, whatever the cost?

What if that cost is defecting to Charlie?

The real question is how much that order will really influence her. She seems to be convinced that whatever happens will work out because her Fate will triumph in the end, which implies that she's not going to see herself as in any real danger as long as she sticks to Fate's plan (insofar as she understands it), or, conversely, that she already considers surviving long enough for her Fate to play out as her absolute top priority.

With regards to Parson's order: Jillian has no heir, Wanda could destroy Faq with a stroke of her Pliers. And thanks to that order, she may have to.

Would she? If Wanda is not techically Loyal to Stanley, Parson can't really give her binding orders... except insofar as she decides that sticking with Stanley and Parson is useful in advancing her fate. She does seem to believe that, but isn't not clear just how far that belief will extend when push comes to shove.

[Athiesh]

My .02 cents

If he is "wire tapping" the thinkagram it is not a latent ability of the Arkendish per se. Remember when Wanda contacted Charlie for Parson earlier in Book 1? Maybe he did a little suggestion spell in the communication that makes all of Maggie's thinkagram's split and sent to him as well.

Also was Wanda the one who told Parson to follow his Overlord's command? IF so, what if Parson also falls into that odd category of the Decrypted where he is a Wanda led unit allied intensely with GK?

That is, of course, baseless speculation.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Ya know, I'm pretty sure that the next text update will be Charlie-centric, and we'll find out why Jillian and Trem were snubbed. It won't be eavesdropping on Parson.

So why am I having this discussion? a) because it's been suggested that Charlie is eavesdropping now and b) unlike other posters, I'm not thrilled by the possibility.