Book 2 – Text Updates 029

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:29 pm

Lamech wrote:Soo... The princes can't attune and apparently don't feel anything, the noble Lady Lazarus feels holy power, and the commoners Stanley and Wanda attune? Anyone else see a pattern?


That's not exactly what the update says; Ossomer didn't feel anything.ossomer then uses the pliers to croak a twoll. The reaction however is only polite applause, not affirmation or support. And when he returns the pliers, Ansom looks "worried and protective". Apparently he expected another behaviour from Ossomer. Maybe awe, rapture or trance. So I guess the other princes indeed felt something, but not enough to attune.

Btw, it seems sensible that Jetstone poops many princes. That way they always have a high level warlord in reserve when the chief warlord croaks. Which should happen regularily, bacause they're always in the heat of the battle. Also Jetstone has a large territory and no thinkamancer. They need good warlords that can act independently without supervision of the CW. Just in case that he's at one end of the country, or busy directing another battle.

ParsonIsOP wrote:One of these considerations is that Lady Lazarus is simply full of shit.


That's heresy. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby ParsonIsOP » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:28 pm

splintermute wrote:
ParsonIsOP wrote:
Lamech wrote:Soo... The princes can't attune and apparently don't feel anything, the noble Lady Lazarus feels holy power, and the commoners Stanley and Wanda attune? Anyone else see a pattern?

False correlation. And not a very large sampling pool. You also didn't consider obvious alternative explanations. You fail at science.

Creating a hypothesis consistent with all observed data is not failing at science. You can add non-royal Charlie to the sample set, and the implication from the text update, that there was a "ceremony" attended only by royals, that "[e]ach Prince of Jetstone held them at least once, in hopes of attunement," suggests that there was a longstanding Jetstone tradition of only letting royals handle the pliers. The next step in the scientific method is coming up with experiments and collecting data that either confirm or disprove that hypothesis, such as a) letting various royal, noble and common characters handle the current crop of Arkentools (unlikely to be allowed), or, more likely, b) learning what Ansom and Tramennis felt when they wielded the pliers, c) studying the history of these Arkentools and their previous owners, and/or d) finding the fourth Arkentool and conducting attunement experiments (I'm assuming the fourth tool is currently unattuned - the attuned seem to have such a huge impact on the world that everyone seems to have heard of them).

You fail at science.

Insofar as science is the art of crafting and testing hypothesis (then forming/revising a reasonable theory), I think you're still quite bad at it.

First off, an inverse correlation between social status and probability of attunement does not automatically mean there is a Titanic Mandate. You could be perfectly correct about the attunement without having said anything conclusive about Titanic Mandate. One does not logically follow from the other.

Next:
It never crossed your mind to consider whether Sylvia was lying or just subjectively playing up the experience. This is quite common behavior with people who will claim to have experienced a special revelation. Which means that anybody else could skew their experiences with the Tool. It's not even a part of your method to take it into account. What are you going to do? Just ask people what they feel?

That you didn't automatically think of it means that it's more likely that you won't try to enforce some kind lie-detection, double-blind or some other more objective standard of measurement. You didn't stop to check yourself or think of where you might have a problem with your idea.

And I would've said that you committed the correlation-causation fallacy, except that you don't even have a correlation. All testimonies involved are automatically suspect because of their subjectivity. Yeah, I can see the correlation. So what? It doesn't suggest anything in of itself. (For one thing, the commoners also outnumber the royals.)

Your idea stinks of bias. Hence, you fail at science. That you know the method is commendable, but your ability is only mediocre.
Last edited by ParsonIsOP on Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Oberon » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:37 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:That's not exactly what the update says; Ossomer didn't feel anything.ossomer then uses the pliers to croak a twoll. The reaction however is only polite applause, not affirmation or support. And when he returns the pliers, Ansom looks "worried and protective". Apparently he expected another behaviour from Ossomer. Maybe awe, rapture or trance. So I guess the other princes indeed felt something, but not enough to attune.
I'd say that Ansom was only worried that another brother would attune. After all, any brother who attuned would probably be promoted to Chief Warlord, so the ritual was a risk to Ansom.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Lamech » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:51 pm

ParsonIsOP wrote:
Lamech wrote:Soo... The princes can't attune and apparently don't feel anything, the noble Lady Lazarus feels holy power, and the commoners Stanley and Wanda attune? Anyone else see a pattern?

False correlation. And not a very large sampling pool. You also didn't consider obvious alternative explanations. You fail at science.

How is the correlation false? Highly royal=no effect, slightly royal= small effect, non-royal=large effect.
The sampling pool is the largest available one.
Of course there are possible alternate explainations, as there are to almost any set of observed data, still hypothesizes must be formed.
No see the first thing that happens in science is one gathers data about how the world appears to be; this is done before designing experiments. One might notice that objects that are denser than water sink and other objects float. Then one could test this with some form of experiment. Simply ignoring observations would lead to great amounts of stuipidity; it would seem silly to test if objects of a certain color floated, and objects of another color sank.

One of these considerations is that Lady Lazarus is simply full of shit. Real people commonly confuse fervent conviction with special revelation. I think that's her affliction: faith. She's also got an awful streak for poetic license. You know, she's one of those "sensitive and artistic" children; as evidenced by her poem about burning rage violence.

Simply, she's crazy and unreliable. You can take anything she says with a grain of salt.
This certainly does seem possible. Of course it is also possible she accurate about the pliers.

Ideally if we were attempting Science! we would experiment by handing the arkenpliers (and imitation pliers as well) to a few other nobles and asking them what they felt. And a few royals, and a few non-royals, and seeing if they attune and having them give their experiences. Of course this is not really possible, so we can really only do the first step.

First off, an inverse correlation between social status and probability of attunement does not automatically mean there is a Titanic Mandate. You could be perfectly correct about the attunement without having said anything conclusive about Titanic Mandate. One does not logically follow from the other.
Your reading things in that aren't there. I am NOT saying that it is certain tools attune to non-royals. I am pointing out a pattern that seems to be possible. Nor would this imply any sort of titanic mandate, if it were true; the non-royals have an advantage, the tools; the royals have an advantage, the splitting of sides, the courtiers, the boosted xp gain and higher stats.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Hiai » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:21 am

atalex wrote: So far, he's the only Decrypted we've seen who has actually undergone observable character growth as a result of Decryption, as opposed to simply becoming a more intense and Wanda-centric version of whatever they were before.


Sorry, I must take exception to this particular part of your otherwise insightful analyses.

The difference in Sylvia, alone, is even more profound than anything you can point out in Ossomer, even if we only go on the evidence given in this text update and ignore the whole poetry page entirely. I was scrolling back through book one with the intent to link pages 56, 117, and 132, to show the "old" Sylvia, back when she was our unnamed but fan-dubbed Scarlet, to point out the extreme difference that decrypting has made in her personality. Unfortunately, I got derailed in that attempt by the urge to "skim" over old pages. I knew when I started to tear up over Bogroll's heroic death that I needed to stop that particular exercise immediately. lol

Nevertheless, I would argue that the process of being decrypted seems to be very much like what Ansom descibed as being "re-popped", or Born Again in Earth parlance. It obviously has different effects on some than on others, based on the perspective they had when they were alive. I agree with you wholeheartedly that Ossomer is not the dumb brute many make him out to be, and I do see a distinct difference in his attitude post-decryption. But that "character growth" you refer to is apparent in all of the described decrypted, far beyond that of the "blindly loyal to Wanda" change that is obvious. As any such traumatic event would, it affects different people in different ways, but profoundly always. Heck, even Wrigley had a sort of "revelation" type of moment, and he didn't even seem quite aware of any strong differences in his new side, down to the fact that he didn't even appear to be that fanatical about Wanda. Too little exposition on him to be sure, but it seemed as if (contrary to the Wanda-fanatic argument you are making) his attitude toward his side/ruler changed little, and it was entirely his world view that changed.

I am crossing my fingers that we get to see more of both Sylvia and Ossomer, with more insight into their own personal thought processes, for I find them fascinating, both for their character development and for the insights we are getting into what the process of decryption really entails. Unfortunately, I suspect, as many others seem to, that this awesome little nugget of character development is given only as a tease in prelude of their inevitable fiery deaths . :(

I am loading up on tissues to share with BLANDcorp as we speak.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby atalex » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:26 am

ParsonIsOP wrote:Your idea stinks of bias. Hence, you fail at science. That you know the method is commendable, but your ability is only mediocre.


Much like your conversational skills. I am reminded once again why I really wish this forum had an ignore button.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:36 am

teratorn wrote:This puts Parson's ideas on par with the tools of the Titans, the means to conquer and remake Erfworld. Wanda won't leave his side.


That's a good point. I had been thinking that Charlie + Wanda would be 2 tools together, just like Stanley + Wanda is, so not a step back from the uniting of the tools. But since Wanda considers Parson a tool of Fate, GK has 3 tools together.

splintermute wrote:d) finding the fourth Arkentool and conducting attunement experiments (I'm assuming the fourth tool is currently unattuned - the attuned seem to have such a huge impact on the world that everyone seems to have heard of them).


Another possible explanation for the lack of discussion about the fourth Arkentool would be a combination of it being held so securely that Stanley and Wanda don't bother talking about acquiring it, and it being associated with an otherworldly power base that is already discussed openly. On that flimsy basis, I speculate that the fourth Arkentool is in the Magic Kingdom, and may be responsible for its existence. The MK's hostility toward GK may come from Parson + Wanda being a potential invasion threat, with the plausibly imputed motive of grabbing the fourth Arkentool.

(Actually, I have this creepy image of the holder of the fourth Arkentool enslaved somewhere, powering the magic portals and other special things about the MK, the way Wierden, the original technomage in the Babylon 5 universe, was trapped in the Eye of Z'ha'dum.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Hiai » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:45 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:(Actually, I have this creepy image of the holder of the fourth Arkentool enslaved somewhere, powering the magic portals and other special things about the MK, the way Wierden, the original technomage in the Babylon 5 universe, was trapped in the Eye of Z'ha'dum.)


While I find this particular scenario to be highly unlikely, given what we know about the MK, I must agree about the creepiness of that image. I shudder. What have you been eating, sheesh?!?!!? lol

Kudos on the originality of the thought, though. I shall ship an extra roll of tinfoil your way presently. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Atomic » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:14 am

Just so we're clear, you all drive me crazy. I mean, seriously... I go a week or two without reading the forums and I have to shift through nearly two dozen pages of ya'll rehashing every debate from "Spell-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named", to theories which make "Charlie is a Transvestite-Tuna-Overlord!" seem tame.

I don't mean to act like I'm a parent or babysitter, but I challenge everyone to read through the Page 38 Reaction Topic; take a glance at how you guys were gnawing each others heads off by the end. It's rough. :lol:

As far as the update(s)... Love 'em. I can't help but feeling like Parson's plan is going to fail. Regardless of Charlie/the Arkendish's powers, Parson has the hopes of just about every unit riding on him... I think it'd be interesting if he let them all down. More-so, it'd be fun to see who would trust him/who wouldn't after they get the cwap beaten out of them above Spacerock.

Re: Parson's order for Wanda... Everyone seemed worried in the last topic that Wanda was going to turn to Charlie's side (or maybe Jetstone?), but I honestly cant see this happening. Wanda's Duty might be in the cwapper, but in my eyes, her Loyalty to Parson would overcome that differential... If Wanda is Loyal to Parson and it's Parson's Duty to see that Gobwin Knob wins this battle, the most obvious step would be to assume that Wanda will make it her Duty to help Parson achieve his goals. But that's just me.

Re: Charlie being able to wiretap Thinkagrams...
Crazy-powerful? Yes.
Something I'd consider "broken"? No.
Tinfoil Hat:
Spoiler: show
Charlie can listen in on whatever Thinkagram he wants, but has kept it hidden from his fellow Erfworlders for the obvious reasons posters have pointed out. My theory on the matter is that Parson will discover it, and use that knowledge against Charlie. Not only feeding faulty information in the future, but overloading Charlie's "Circuits", so to speak.

If any unit can contact Charlie by thinking hard enough, why not order ten units to constantly try to contact Charlie? Why not a hundred? A thousand? That, of course, depends on whether or not Charlie can tell who's calling him before an Archon "accepts" the call.

Imagine getting a thousand and five phone calls a day without a Caller ID; five of those calls are from your friends, but the other thousand are from people posing as friends, just trying to keep you on the line as long as possible. That could really wreck his business, tying up his line with fake callers who only want to prevent others from dialing in! ... Of course, that has nothing to do with the latest update. Ah well.


As for this update, I sort of hope both Scarlet and Ossomer survive; with such opposite personalities, I really want to see them interact in the future! Other than that, anyone else is open game as far as I'm concerned... Of course, I don't want Jack to croak-croak, since it'd be interesting to see him as a Decrypted (caster or not), but I wouldn't mind Wanda taking one for the team; you can only leave so much up to "Fate" before you start getting ridiculous and I think Wanda has long since reached that point... Scarlet is at a nice, happy-medium, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby atalex » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:17 am

Hiai wrote:
atalex wrote: So far, he's the only Decrypted we've seen who has actually undergone observable character growth as a result of Decryption, as opposed to simply becoming a more intense and Wanda-centric version of whatever they were before.


Sorry, I must take exception to this particular part of your otherwise insightful analyses.

The difference in Sylvia, alone, is even more profound than anything you can point out in Ossomer, even if we only go on the evidence given in this text update and ignore the whole poetry page entirely. I was scrolling back through book one with the intent to link pages 56, 117, and 132, to show the "old" Sylvia, back when she was our unnamed but fan-dubbed Scarlet, to point out the extreme difference that decrypting has made in her personality. Unfortunately, I got derailed in that attempt by the urge to "skim" over old pages. I knew when I started to tear up over Bogroll's heroic death that I needed to stop that particular exercise immediately. lol

Nevertheless, I would argue that the process of being decrypted seems to be very much like what Ansom descibed as being "re-popped", or Born Again in Earth parlance. It obviously has different effects on some than on others, based on the perspective they had when they were alive. I agree with you wholeheartedly that Ossomer is not the dumb brute many make him out to be, and I do see a distinct difference in his attitude post-decryption. But that "character growth" you refer to is apparent in all of the described decrypted, far beyond that of the "blindly loyal to Wanda" change that is obvious. As any such traumatic event would, it affects different people in different ways, but profoundly always. Heck, even Wrigley had a sort of "revelation" type of moment, and he didn't even seem quite aware of any strong differences in his new side, down to the fact that he didn't even appear to be that fanatical about Wanda. Too little exposition on him to be sure, but it seemed as if (contrary to the Wanda-fanatic argument you are making) his attitude toward his side/ruler changed little, and it was entirely his world view that changed.

I am crossing my fingers that we get to see more of both Sylvia and Ossomer, with more insight into their own personal thought processes, for I find them fascinating, both for their character development and for the insights we are getting into what the process of decryption really entails. Unfortunately, I suspect, as many others seem to, that this awesome little nugget of character development is given only as a tease in prelude of their inevitable fiery deaths . :(

I am loading up on tissues to share with BLANDcorp as we speak.


To clarify my earlier thoughts a bit: I wasn't talking about character development, but character growth (i.e. a character actually recognizing and overcoming a personal foible or stumbling block). Sylvia, Ansom and even Wrigley have all had a measure of post-Decryption character development to be sure. For Ansom, this meant changing the focus of his prior fanaticism and possibly squelching his romantic feelings for Jillian. For Sylvia, she now appears to be something of a nihilist, which I find quite interesting in this context, but I still don't feel I knew anything about her pre-Decryption, so I can't really say whether this is a significant character development or not. I've reread the pages you alluded to which "showcased" old Sylvia, and to me she seems to be a complete cipher who never spoke except to comment on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of Ansom's strategies. I never really understood the fascination she held for so many readers when virtually the only interesting thing she ever did was to try and snatch the Arkenpliers away from Ansom's dead hands. Old Wrigley ended his life unhappy that he would die without ever even getting to use his spear. New Wrigley cheerfully went on a suicide run because he was happy to die in battle.

With those examples to go on, I wasn't sure what I to expect from Decrypted Ossomer. But based on the pre-Decryption arrogance and pomposity he demonstrated, what I did not expect was for him to be so chastened by his change in circumstance that he would suck it up and ask a subordinate, in a surprisingly humble way, for advice on how to adapt to his new existence. And that was before he experienced that inexplicable pang of guilt over an incident with his brother from years earlier and before he felt the need to flat-out lie to Sylvia about whether he sensed the divine nature of the Arkenpliers. Based on his pre-Decryption personality, I think it's possible that Ossomer is the sort of person who rarely feels guilt or insecurity in his whole life, and now he has been faced with both in the same turn. And while he is obviously deferential to Wanda, he does not demonstrate the breathless adoration that up to now seemed common to Decrypted. While we are all still assessing what effect Decryption has on the Decrypted, I'll go out on a limb right now and say Ossomer is the only character I actually like a great deal more post-Decryption. Not bad for a slab of beef.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby splintermute » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:56 am

atalex wrote:With those examples to go on, I wasn't sure what I to expect from Decrypted Ossomer. But based on the pre-Decryption arrogance and pomposity he demonstrated, what I did not expect was for him to be so chastened by his change in circumstance that he would suck it up and ask a subordinate, in a surprisingly humble way, for advice on how to adapt to his new existence. And that was before he experienced that inexplicable pang of guilt over an incident with his brother from years earlier and before he felt the need to flat-out lie to Sylvia about whether he sensed the divine nature of the Arkenpliers.

How is Sylvia his subordinate? They're both high-ish level warlords in GK's army, and when Parson was running the numbers they were both viable candidates for promotion to CWL. Sylvia is technically his superior in terms of seniority (and in terms of being the one who killed him). I think of Ossomer as the new guy at the office, still trying to learn about the idiosyncrasies of his new company from his slightly more experienced coworkers.

@ParsonisOP: Lamech wasn't suggesting a Titanic mandate (I was, but I was offering it as a tinfoil hat theory), he was just observing an interesting correlation in the existing data that could lead to (objectively) testable hypotheses. And this hypothesis is particularly interesting, and particularly amenable to testing, on Erf, where social status is an objective characteristic and everyone fits neatly into three little boxes (royal, noble, commoner), rather than the more fluid array of status we have over here. Sylvia may or may not be lying - that's why we're interested in acquiring more data, and why I was intrigued by Lamech's concept of Arkentool placebos.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Chris Goodwin » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:10 am

Dr Pepper wrote:No-- i'm saying that Parson is like a GURPS character dropped into a game that is definitely NOT GURPS based.

Or like a Magic card thrown onto the deck in a Yu Gi Oh game.

Or a rodeo clown in a rugby match.


Or Kevin Flynn on the game grid.

It's not for nothing that the casting room was done up like Sark's control room when they summoned Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby zilfallon » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:24 am

hmm , "royals cant attune" thing started again. well, then i'll write what i wrote in earlier pages:

i also have a theory about the toolism war:

The reason that Royal's aren't attuned to tools might be the titan's or tool's will. Royal's are obviously in a stronger position than others in the erf, so the tools are attuning themselves to non-royals to continiue the endless cycle of war, the purpose of erf. in other words, a side started to win and the game masters are balancing it by making the other side stronger.
So, maybe that is the reason Parson was brought to erfworld, to keep the endless cycle alive, unlike what Janis said.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby build6 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:40 am

Lamech wrote: How is the correlation false? Highly royal=no effect, slightly royal= small effect, non-royal=large effect.


erm.

but it's not like every single non=royal attunes to every arkentool - it's just those few. we don't know if only ONE person ever attunes to an arkentool either (maybe some other royal would - just the wrong royal. Would Slately have loaned the arkenpliers to Queen Bea?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby splintermute » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:20 am

build6 wrote:but it's not like every single non=royal attunes to every arkentool - it's just those few. we don't know if only ONE person ever attunes to an arkentool either (maybe some other royal would - just the wrong royal. Would Slately have loaned the arkenpliers to Queen Bea?

There's currently nothing in the comic that proves otherwise - based on what we've seen, you could just as easily conclude that every Arkentool automatically attunes to the first non-royal to come along (it would certainly make it easier to explain Stanley; also, perhaps Charlie had figured it out, which is why he was so desperate to acquire the pliers). That's why we want to experiment! Or at least learn more about the history of the Arkentools and the Tools, to settle the question once and for all.

In terms of hypotheses, Occam's razor actually suggests this is the correct conclusion:
"Once a generation, a Chosen one is born, destined by Fate to wield a specific Tool" vs. "For use by non-royals only"
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Undead Prince » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:49 am

JustDoug wrote:
Magothys wrote:On the subject of Parson's level:
<clip>
I can see two possibilities:
A. Parson was summoned at level 1, gets experience for leading battles, whether or not he is an active participant, received a massive experience boost for tBfGK and probably leveled (multiple times), and Wanda just doesn't know his current level due to his stats being hidden.


I see a third: that Parson doesn't have a level as per Erf's usual rules. From the tale so far, nobody can see his stats. They were only able to estimate his level by the bonus units received from his (first term) presence as Chief Warlord.


1) There was also a list of all GK troops on one of the Stupid Meals, which identified Parson as a "Level 2 Warlord, Special" (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F077a.jpg)

2) Parson is still identified as a Level 2 even after TBfGK (for instance, in this very update).

3) Deducing a Warlord's Leadership from the bonus he confers on units under his command is presented as a valid method throughout the comic. And Leadership is closely tied with Level, as we can see from the example of Ansom.

4) Parson naturally didn't get any XP for TBfGK because he retreated (into the Magic Kingdom) before the battle was resolved, which, as we know, denies Warlords the XP from winning (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F055.jpg).

Of course, Sylvia's right in the sense that Parson's technical level has little to no bearing on his strategic mettle - after all, he was able to TPK the RCC as a lowly Level 2. But, this would also be true for Erfworlders - a low-level unit may still perform great deeds (e.g. Stanley rising through the ranks to become Overlord). With the lack of traditional RPG stats like Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma, it's hard to say how much of the Erfworders' personality is governed by game mechanics (i.e. unit stats), and how much is their personal psyche; but so far, IMHO, signs point towards Erfworlders having a "soul", so to speak, which is only in some aspects affected by the mechanics (e.g. the Leadership score obviously has a bearing on the personality), but in general evolves similarly to humans (is shaped by experiences, convictions, interactions etc.). Jillian becoming Queen is a good example - although there was a noticeable change, there was also speculation that the "Queenly" qualities were not something new, but merely sides of her character which were previously suppressed by her freedom-loving lifestyle choices.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Smoker » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:02 am

Oberon wrote:
Smoker wrote:Two points I'd like to put on the table-

1) Sylvia's heightened awareness of the 'pliers (in comparison to the thickheaded Ossomer) [...]
But, did you not see? Unlike Ansom, who is pretty much a decrypted version of himself, the slab of beef Prince unbent enough and became self aware enough to utter the words '"Help me," he said. "Help me to do so."', even after being somewhat rudely rebuked by the single word reply "Adapt." This is very much worth noting!

I totally agree! I like Ossomer! Only I still think he's a meathead. Everytime he has to use his brains/intuition, he flounders. The fact he can ask for help to understand something is admirable, but I dont believe Ossomer has the kind of mind that can pick up on the spiritual/magical energies of an Arkentool, or much else.

Oberon wrote:
Smoker wrote:Stanley is a short tempered little brute. The 'hammer, lacking any abilities (that we know of) that do not involve melee combat, [...]
You mean like flight, or turning pigeons into walnuts and vice versa? Potent combat only abilities, indeed! :P (I'm not sure we can view the transformation of the Orly into a walnut as a combat effect, as they probably die in a single hit from the 'Hammer anyway)

Ah, I didn't consider flight, good pick-up. Still, I'd consider mobility a combat advantage. Vinny speculates he cannot fly out of a hex, and indeed we've only ever seen Stanley use the flight ability to mount a dragon or a highchair, so mounting the units that the hammer tames appears to be the primary function of the flight (or levitation) ability, and is still combat-esque.

Moreover, I believe the whole nut-to-pigeon/orly-to-nut thing was nothing more than a gag, but if this is incorrect, then that makes it an unexplored magic effect triggered by a melee strike. It definitely feels like a combat ability to me. But anyway, you cant deny the hammer represents the most 'brute force' approach of the Arkentools, which was the point.

oberon wrote:
Smoker wrote:I still think that the 'hammer is the weakest of the known 'tools, but it would be much easier to attribute this to Stanley than to the 'hammer itself.
Dunno if I'd bet against the 'Hammer. Stop, hammertime! And also the battle at the pass. Vinny and Caesar had Stanley pegged for dead, due to the TV force multiplier method of fighting. And they did mount an assault directly targeting Stanley. And, they lost. Yeah, Stanley was running, and he lost the battle, but simply living against all odds was like winning the war.


I almost dont disagree with you, but consider:
1) It wasn't the hammer that saved Stanley, it was Jack. Stanley only knocked back Caesar, and that night (before Caesar healed) he didn't even look injured. (I didn't check this, but thats how I remember it)
2) Either way, I was comparing the hammer to the other tools, and the fight against TV doesn't really help us in that regard.

See what I was getting at, was that the hammer isn't conquering the world like the pliers, or building an empire from a single city like the dish. The reason for this, is that Stanley doesn't get out much. He has a responsibility as the Overlord to keep himself alive, and so he cant unleash the potential of the hammer. (And even if he did, I dunno how he'd go in a pitched battle with himself and his dwagons against Wanda and her decrypted)

So, if you consider the tools attunement to be part of the tool, its easy to consider the hammer as weaker. Its like saying that a horn on a mouse is less powerful than a horn on a rhino. Thats the point I was making.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Smoker » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:23 am

undead prince wrote:4) Parson naturally didn't get any XP for TBfGK because he retreated (into the Magic Kingdom) before the battle was resolved, which, as we know, denies Warlords the XP from winning (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F055.jpg).


Or 1) Because he didn't deal any killing blows. (Recall Jillian when she ganked a kill from her new warlords in the summer updates.)
Or perhaps even 2) Because he wasn't leading the stack that dealt killing blows.

You are still right, of course, just pointing out the other XP belief systems out there ;)


EDIT: Actually, wait... I guess he was leading the stack of casters that uncroaked the volcano... I take back number 2. Apologies. *tips hat*
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Undead Prince » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:43 am

splintermute wrote:
build6 wrote:but it's not like every single non=royal attunes to every arkentool - it's just those few. we don't know if only ONE person ever attunes to an arkentool either (maybe some other royal would - just the wrong royal. Would Slately have loaned the arkenpliers to Queen Bea?

There's currently nothing in the comic that proves otherwise - based on what we've seen, you could just as easily conclude that every Arkentool automatically attunes to the first non-royal to come along (it would certainly make it easier to explain Stanley; also, perhaps Charlie had figured it out, which is why he was so desperate to acquire the pliers). That's why we want to experiment! Or at least learn more about the history of the Arkentools and the Tools, to settle the question once and for all.

In terms of hypotheses, Occam's razor actually suggests this is the correct conclusion:
"Once a generation, a Chosen one is born, destined by Fate to wield a specific Tool" vs. "For use by non-royals only"


"For use by non-royals only" excludes some very important factors from the Occam's razor equation - namely, that attunement to an Arkentool is widely regarded as a rare and prominent occurrence, enough so that Stanley uses it as proof of HIS Titanic Mandate, and that the Arkenpliers couldn't find a master for so long. If ANY non-Royal unit automatically attuned to ANY Arkentool, this would undoubtadly be mentioned in the comic, and the entire attitude towards Arkentools would have been different. As an example off the top of my head, the Hobgoblin Knights could simply croak Stanley like they did Saline, and take the Arkenhammer, thus becoming an extremely powerful and fearsome Tribe. And don't tell me Wanda wouldn't have killed Stanley in his sleep after one of their nookie sessions if she had any hope of attuning to the Arkenhammer. Not to mention that the Arkentools would have always been at the centre of great wars and their powers would have continuously shaped Erfworld history; whereas in the comic, the Tools' powers come either as a total surprise (Decryption), a closely guarded secret (Arkendish), or are simply unknown (Arkenhammer's implied potential, the mystery fourth tool).

So, on the contrary, the simplest explanation is that there are indeed very few people who can Attune, and once a Tool has found its Master, there is very little hope that another person in the immediate vicinity could also attune to it. Maybe in some generations, or a "Special" case like Parson. However, on the examples of Ansom, Wanda, Sylvia and Ossomer we see how varied the reactions to the same Arkentool may be - from total neglect (Ossomer) to reverence (Ansom) to understanding of potential (Sylvia) to realisation of said potential on a grand scale (Wanda). Sylvia is a border case here; she may have attuned without fully understanding it, and simply didn't have a chance to start using the Pliers; or she may indeed have simply been a more "sensitive soul" than Ansom or Ossomer. Either way, her case decidedly blurs the "attuned/non-attuned" border and may evidence against the concept of "One Chosen in a generation". Likely, things are more complex.

True, Wanda got Attuned like the Predictamancer said. But, was it Wanda's Fate, or did the Predictamancer simply sense the future, like the nature of his magic implies, and then Wanda did everything she could to make the "prophecy" come true? Is everything on Erf preordained by the Titans (Wanda), or the units choose their own destiny and may even change the nature of Erf (Janis)? This seems to be the main metaphysical question Rob throws at us.

One thing seems certain - the Arkentools DO have gamebreaking/worldchanging powers, and WERE left on Erf by some higher order of beings. Following simple logic, if these higher beings (the Titans) wanted everything to proceed according to a specific divine plan, why bother with the Tools at all and why not just make the world perfect from the get-go (classic question to challenge the omniscience and omnipotence of monotheistic deities). IMHO, the mere EXISTENCE of the Arkentools implies that the Titans wanted Erflings to be able to shape the world according to their own choices, and thus defeats the Fate paradigm. Of course, a postmodernistic view would be that despite this freedom, Erflings would still conform to Fate (as in, Freedom of Will does not contradict Predetermination, see "Theodicy" by Leibnitz), but that would mean the Titans were nihilistic jokers, which would go against the whole "creation of a world" enterprise.

So, my money's on the idea that Tools are there to give Erflings the means to change the world. Attunement is a more delicate issue; I doubt there is any form of "conscious" selection (they are Tools, not Titans themselves) or "Fated" predetermination (see above). It seems more probable that each Tool seeks certain qualities, and there's at least one quality common to all of the Wielders - the desire to change the world (be it through brutal conquest like Stanley, through mass Decryption like Wanda, through long-term, global scheming like Charlie, or - hypothetically - through destruction like Sylvia). I wonder if people like Janis or Sizemore will ever get their hands on a Tool, and what that would lead to.

Finally, there's the prophecy of bringing Tools together. This is obviously a reference to their primal world-changing powers, and is likely intended to provide the people of Erf with the means to fundamentally change the nature of their existence. The "test" may be in determining whether Erfworlders - more specifically, wielders of the Arkentools - would be wiling to work together for a common goal, or would continue to use their respective tools for personal ambition, continuing the cycle of war.

/banal rant end
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 029

Postby Undead Prince » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:12 pm

Smoker wrote:See what I was getting at, was that the hammer isn't conquering the world like the pliers, or building an empire from a single city like the dish. The reason for this, is that Stanley doesn't get out much. He has a responsibility as the Overlord to keep himself alive, and so he cant unleash the potential of the hammer. (And even if he did, I dunno how he'd go in a pitched battle with himself and his dwagons against Wanda and her decrypted)

So, if you consider the tools attunement to be part of the tool, its easy to consider the hammer as weaker. Its like saying that a horn on a mouse is less powerful than a horn on a rhino. Thats the point I was making.


If you're talking about the tool, you've got to consider its FULL potential. Limitations obviously imposed by user inadequacy can't really be held against the tool itself. Besides, in Stanley's case he has good advisors who helped him make more out of the Hammer.

the hammer isn't conquering the world like the pliers


Parson showed that by a little thinking the Hammer may be used to raise limitless amounts of Dwagons for free (not counting the upkeep), and Dwagons are probably the most powerful regular unit on Erf after Archons (or maybe even on par with Archons, if we consider that Charlie's girls we saw in battle were advanced levels, and Stanley's dwagons were newly popped/tamed Level 1's). Even before Parson, Stanley did a healthy amount of conquering on his own.

or building an empire from a single city like the dish


Stanley might do that, by selling the mercenary services of his tamed Dwagons. Of course, he wouldn't have the instant global telecom coverage, but he also wouldn't have to pay for popping new units, and wouldn't be limited to 3 new units per 2 turns.

Also, there are strong hints that the Hammer's powers will be explored further. Its power over flying units is already evident - if it can turn orlies into nuts with a single strike, and can knock out a Plated Red dwagon by simply hitting it on the head, how would it fare against Megalogwiffs, the enemy's strongest air unit? And there's definitely some future for the rocking out, as well.

I dunno how he'd go in a pitched battle with himself and his dwagons against Wanda and her decrypted


He'd only have to croak one unit - Wanda. And she doesn't have any full casters except herself, whereas Jack, Maggie, and Sizemore are all bound to Charlie, not to mention Parson. Thousands of heavy Decrypted infantry are useless against Dwagons and casters. Wanda's big strength are her Archons, but she also has a very limited and non-renewable supply of those. And

In general, whoever gets the first turn would probably win. I.e. if Wanda decided to croak Stanley, she could easily arrange an assassination with her Archons; but the same is true if Stanley wanted to eliminate Wanda and had the opportunity to move first.

Point is, they need each other too much. Wanda obviously doesn't have any ideas about being able to attune to the Hammer (otherwise she would've croaked Stanley long ago), so she needs him as an ally to realise the Prophecy; she also needs Parson, who's Duty-bound to Stanley; and of course GK's casters, dwagons, and huge income are all boons for her quest. From Stanley's side, he needs Wanda and her Decrypted because everyone else in the world hates his guts and would curb-stomp him otherwise.

If this situation undergoes any dramatic changes, however, a confrontation between Wanda and Stanley is not to be excluded (and may have been foreshadowed from the Summer Updates).
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