Book 2 – Page 39

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:33 am

I'd posit that any caster that can create a useful or powerful unit is almost never going to be risked in battle. The next strip with Ace the Dollamancer drives this home when he claims this is his one chance to fight a battle with a CW. Sure, they may provide more utility leading their units (with bonuses and in some cases healing powers), but a dead caster provides zero utility.

Parson does have a more aggressive style which when combined with Wanda's fatalism means GK casters are at risk far more often then almost any other nation. Plus, during the Final Battle of Gobwin Knob, GK was probably going to loose anyways, so it had very little to lose by risking casters.

Also, I would draw a sharp distinction between being out in the field and actually being on the front lines. In the former, the caster is probably protected by a large contingent that would be difficult to kill, or city walls. The latter is just playing stupid. Even Sizemore was told by Parson to retreat and collapse tunnels if ever faced by a superior force.

Finally, do not ever assume we the readers know all a caster's powers. We have learned that Dollamancy has a lot more of potential applications than previous thought. What if Healamancer can summon the special support unit Band Aide? They can certainly make Healamancy scrolls and probably a good deal of other health and healing related items that are useful in the field.
"Act, and God will Act." - Joan of Arc

"Those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt." - Thomas Moore
User avatar
Lord Kasavin
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:27 am

DevilDan wrote:We should keep a list of mistakes Charlie has made:
Caught by zombcano
Revealing to Parson the true (?) extent of the bracer's powers
Failing to predict Jill's pull-out

What does Parson's list look like? Dwagon donut and aftermath don't count, I'd say.


And once more you deliver on starting interesting discussions. And thank you for this one, at least there'll be some variety in all that Charlie related thing.

Naturally though, I disagree with you :P

If you don't count the donut and aftermath as a mistake, then I'd not count the Jillian mishandling either. Both incidents involve mismanaging agents (in Parson's case, that mismanagement being trusting Wanda), and while you can say Charlie has a huge advantage being a Thinkamancer and all, we have not yet seen him/her/it completely map out and then utterly dominate a person.

The zombcano is another gray area. Gray because for one I maintain that caster links should have been reasonably mapped out, but for two it appears this particular trick was unknown to nigh everyone. Should Charlie have hired a Dirtamancer, Thinkamancer and Croakamancer from the MK, and let them experiment and see what such a link could do? Should Parson have asked before breaking the Eyemancy link?

The last item on the list was an actual blunder. Comparable to Parson's ill conceived negociation that led to Charlie having those calculations available.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DoctorJest » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:35 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Should Parson have asked before breaking the Eyemancy link?.


The Eyemancy Link was broken by Stanley, not Parson.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/072.jpg
DoctorJest
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby zilfallon » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:10 pm

Well actually...

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F047.jpg

They give us unmatched communications and intelligence. When Stanley sees you have tampered with their functioning...


Parson broke the eyemancer link-up by calling the lookamancer's name. no severe damage was caused, they linked up again, only to be broken by Stanley before leaving GK.
rkyeun wrote:Roses are red.
Violets are blue.

Image
User avatar
zilfallon
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:47 am
Location: Magic Kingdom

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Oberon » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:21 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:By the way, it has not been established that archons can veil units other than themselves, which would make it more difficult to be on standby with a mounted turnamancer... (I know, I know, it hasn't been established that they can't, either. You don't need to point that out.)
Naw, I won't dispute that. It is entirely reasonable, and the text update where the Archons were captured supports it by the mention of spending all their juice just brightening their shadows. It is just as reasonable an assumption as the one regarding hired casters costing more for field duty or for linking: We don't know, but it makes sense in a logical way.

Regarding the "casters in the field" discussion, lots of good points have been made. I'm wondering if Erfworlders are just too used to using their casters in combat only as last stand capital defense, and rarely if ever use them to prevent situations where last stand capitol defense would be necessary. Yes, they are rare and expensive units. But they all seem to be capable of a strong combat role. Even Maggie has used combat magics, and Thinkamancers seem to be typically used strictly for communications. As an analogy, it's like leaving your tank in the base because it is an expensive piece of equipment, and because if the base is attacked it adds a decent amount of firepower to the defense. Sure it does, but if the tank was sent out on offensive maneuvers with infantry to cover it, there may never be able to be an attack on the base.

I think the only cases we've seen of casters in the field have been GK, with Wanda leading the rolling expansion of GK backed by Jack; Jetstone, parking their casters in the field as a sort of last stand maneuver; and FAQ with Vanna, for KW. Discounting KW and a fairly desperate tactic by Jetstone, that leaves GK as the sole Side who places casters in the field with regularity. And that is a whole lot of tanks left defending bases which are rarely if ever attacked, a whole lot of unused potential.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DevilDan » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:04 am

Some ancillary thoughts:

- One element that Parson had no way of knowing was the existence of Charlie. Parson didn't know there was an ally with air units available. And he bet right on Ansom's reaction, exactly right. It wasn't his best work, even if it was inspired, on the other hand.

About Vanna: How in Erf does her being in Spacerock, a capital of tremendous importance, count as being in the field?
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:07 am

I would say its less like leaving a tank back at the factory and more like putting General Patraeus on bomb squad duty. If the man dies we do not have an obvious replacement and our war effort suffers. Or, if the tank factor was mobile, it would be like putting the factory on the field so as to be able to repair and replace tanks faster... so long as the factory does not get hit.

The comic has made a big deal about the rarity of casters and how even behind the scenes they can provide a great deal of support.

That being said, Erfworlders are probably a little to conservative about their use. Judicious use of a caster might turn a close win into a curb stomp, and if done properly with little risk to the caster herself.
"Act, and God will Act." - Joan of Arc

"Those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt." - Thomas Moore
User avatar
Lord Kasavin
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Rosa Vernal » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:03 pm

@Kasavin: What if you think Porteaus belongs on bomb squad duty? I'm sorry, but it's an insult to the Erf warlords to compare them to the "generals" that're currently losing this "war" ... except maybe Jillian or Stanley, but those two at least have won battles.

I, for one, vote for Sylvia to lead our troops into battle.

[/off-topic]
RIP, Grandma. <3
Mar '29 - Oct '10
User avatar
Rosa Vernal
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:21 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Oberon » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:52 pm

DevilDan wrote:About Vanna: How in Erf does her being in Spacerock, a capital of tremendous importance, count as being in the field?
*sigh* She got there, how? She is leaving there, how? She isn't a Jetstone unit, and she didn't arrive in Jetstone via portal, so your question was answered before you asked.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby arborman » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:44 pm

Sweet Titans could we get past the endless buildup and onto the battle already.
arborman
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:18 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby zilfallon » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:04 pm

nope arborman, it has only been 7 months. at least 2 readers must die of old age before we see events progress.
rkyeun wrote:Roses are red.
Violets are blue.

Image
User avatar
zilfallon
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:47 am
Location: Magic Kingdom

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby splintermute » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 pm

Oberon wrote:
DevilDan wrote:About Vanna: How in Erf does her being in Spacerock, a capital of tremendous importance, count as being in the field?
*sigh* She got there, how? She is leaving there, how? She isn't a Jetstone unit, and she didn't arrive in Jetstone via portal, so your question was answered before you asked.

Again, in Oberon's defense, even if you don't count her visit to Spacerock as being "in the field", she's clearly in the field immediately afterward, using the rest of her juice to try to turn Ansom.

Was that the first time we've seen actual spell failure? We've seen spells being broken, but have we ever seen a caster trying to cast a spell (in their own discipline - I'm not counting Sizemore's studies with Janis) and nothing happening?
splintermute
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:49 pm

That sounds right to me. But then again did she actually cast the spell and it failed or was she unable to cast it to begin with because she didn't hace the juice to cast it to begin with?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
User avatar
the_tick_rules
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby CorrTerek » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:47 am

the_tick_rules wrote:That sounds right to me. But then again did she actually cast the spell and it failed or was she unable to cast it to begin with because she didn't hace the juice to cast it to begin with?


I'm wondering if it might not have been both. Maybe the cost of some spells isn't determined until they're actually cast. Like, maybe if you're trying to do a relatively simple veil, it doesn't require a whole lot of juice, but doing a large or complex veil costs more. Maybe Turnamancy's like that too -- turning a unit with a low Loyalty score costs less juice than turning someone who's extremely loyal.

If that's the case, it would explain why she was willing to try turning someone. Then when she tried to turn Ansom she ran out of juice trying, causing the spell to fail.
Image
CorrTerek
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:57 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DevilDan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:23 am

I'll tell you one thing: if you can risk the queen of Faq, sans heir, in a hex, then you can have caster in there too. It's marginal.

And, just as Ossomer had casters in his "capital battle" at Exposition Bridge due to the importance of that encounter, so the decision to deploy casters must depend on each situation. In the case of Vanna, the choice to use Kingworld and turn GK into sitting ducks was a clear one.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby asweethero » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:58 pm

iv read many of the theories and I'm surprised everyone is leaning towards charlie can snoop. and while yes its possible he can do such a thing do you not also think if he is smart enough to screw GK out of its turn he would be smart enough to figure out what GK is capable of without Jillian extra overkill force? give charlie credit where credit is due he is not only a master informant hes also a smart cookie.
NO its not my fault the plan fell apart YOUR the idiot who put ME in charge!
asweethero
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DevilDan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:38 pm

asweethero wrote:iv read many of the theories and I'm surprised everyone is leaning towards charlie can snoop. and while yes its possible he can do such a thing do you not also think if he is smart enough to screw GK out of its turn he would be smart enough to figure out what GK is capable of without Jillian extra overkill force? give charlie credit where credit is due he is not only a master informant hes also a smart cookie.

I remain quite skeptical on the matter myself.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Unclever title » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:17 pm

Sorry for the necropost, but I just wanted to note the tremendous silliness of page 39 when viewed without any word balloons.
Unclever title
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby zilfallon » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:23 pm

That's how updates should be, i think. The true beauty must be within the text, so the page loses all its beauty and meaning when you take the words out. That's my opinion anyway.
rkyeun wrote:Roses are red.
Violets are blue.

Image
User avatar
zilfallon
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:47 am
Location: Magic Kingdom

Previous

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Denar, Keighvin1, Knott, OneHugeTuck, Yahoo [Bot] and 6 guests