Book 2 – Page 39

[zilfallon]

It is true that tools should be, and must be op. But i think that Erfworld exists for War. And a tool strong and inbalanced enough to end the war? That doesn't fit, since those tools were used by Titans to create a world of eternal war. They wouldn't send those tools to world to end the war. That's what i think anyway.

[effataigus]

even with all of his other powers that you say he is forgetting. Perhaps you're wondering why he hasn't sacked Gobwin Knob while Wanda is out of the house?

well, assuming sizemore is in GK (which is probably true), GK should have a "boop"load of dirtamantic golems of every possible type

Man do I ever hope they have lava golems now.

Aye, I'm not convinced that attacking GK right now is a good idea... probably murderous defenses... though it would be pretty funny to see the Hammer's dragons either join Charlie (if he did manage to pull off a win and attune to the hammer) or go back to being wild animals and start nomming Wanda's stack... assuming they didn't just become barbarians like the rest of them.

Kingworld is definitely crazy good in a straight up fight. Indeed, all of the other sides would be mad if they didn't start looking into how they could (ab)use it... this is definitely a can of worms for the furture of Erfworld and I'll be very curious what is up if there are good chances to use it in the future that are passed up. Really, there is one reason why Kingworld isn't broken though... this current turn will never ever ever ever end.... *sobs*

[BLANDCorporatio]

Or, possibly, reveals powers we didn't know he had, because he didn't have an opponent worthy of using those powers against before...

Uh-hum. Because a side like Charlie would not use tricks it has up its sleeve, they play honourable.

No - instead the protagonists are custom-made to be able to thwart the antagonists. The rebel alliance fleet is 'too small' to be effectively destroyed by the Death Star's guns. (The ability to destroy a planet isn't really that overpowered, I guess...)

"How it should have ended" disagrees, and indeed the Death Star 2 fires its cannons in anger upon rebel ships. So I don't see that "too small" part being a problem. Plus, the Empire has all kinds of ships, and coffers to hire bounty hunters, and so on. It's actually believable, you have this big state trying to quell a rag tag group of miscreants in classic asymmetric warfare. As for the one pilot, I was under the impression that any one of those fighters believed they had a chance at the shot, even though said chance was slim. It was desperate, it was suspenseful, in general it was a pretty good film when I saw it.

Yeah, I remember how in A New Hope, it was made clear that the Emperor could PREDICT THE FUTURE... Oh, wait - that's an OK WTF moment because Luke got to use it first (to walk into a trap).

Not following. The Emperor claimed a lot, but since he couldn't foresee the Rebel success or the Vader betrayal, my bets are he was half full of cwap and half full of common sense. I mean, a Death Star. A shield generator on a planet. What would the Rebels possibly want to attack?

Perhaps it has, but most royals and overlords don't research magic, and would probably not be aware of a risky and expensive one-shot that only works in very limited circumstances.
Creating the table was surprising and shrewd to Wanda, and that seems like it would be a common, must-have technology. And STANLEY came up with it. Why should we assume that all possible combinations have been mapped out? Casters are clearly reluctant to enter into a link unless ordered to.

a) KW is useful in any number of situations you want. Denying a turn to your opponent is ALWAYS useful*. Does the use outweigh the cost? If the cost is small enough (and we have seen NONE) then yes.

(EDIT, for game theorists:
*: in TBSes, where you always have the option of ending turn on no action taken, there is trivially no Zug-Zwang.)

b) Links are tried, by the MK, by a ruler Stanley, presumably by other rulers too. That matchup artifact came from a link, remember. And if Stanley can order a link, another King or Queen can. How did Stanley, of all people, know this combo btw? This suggests that it should in fact be common.
c) Casters are not reluctant to go into 2-links at least.

"cast Kingworld, why isn't he king of the world?" - Kingworld may cost much, have limitations and be able to be both copied and countered by other sides if they knew about it.

The keyword is may. Vanna was game to try converting Ansom after delinking.

About counters, I sure hope so. I mean, it's good to credit Erf people with enough knowledge of their world to devise something on their own. But here's a thing about weapons, they must be used. Charlie may only be using this power or that because whatever, but sometimes the mere threat of something is a problem in itself.

Another poster suggested that if Charlie were known to intercept Thinkagrams, sides hostile to him/her/it/them would not use them anymore. Win! Because other methods of communication are less flexible.

(If you're using Charlie for Thinkagrams, I suppose you do so under the expectation that you're heard by Charlescomm. So there's that.)

Bland, that's what i meant by saying "costly, even for charlie", i think i got misunderstood. I didn't mean in terms of stats.

I wasn't responding to you specifically, but in that case ok. This discussion has been had before, and it's usually degenerating in costs in game turns.

In story terms, there's little that was sacrificed. Charlie was linked for part of the GK turn (immediate delink after Kingworld), and the archons were sad pandas (quoth Oberon). That because Charlie was the link Thinkamancer, but right now there's no solid evidence that a Thinkamancer would not have sufficed instead. So really, there was no risk there. No sacrifice. Charlie even engages in strongarming Haggar after delinking, proving fresh and in no need of recuperation.

[zilfallon]

lava golems, sound awesome
i think it might be possible if Sizemore linked with Maggie They were using the 2 caster link a lot anyway, wouldn't be a problem for those 2!

Bland: KW may have been used before, but judging from reactions of the characters, it is highly possible that it is unique to Arkendish's unmatched thinkamancy.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Bland: KW may have been used before, but judging from reactions of the characters, it is highly possible that it is unique to Arkendish's unmatched thinkamancy.

Just like the flier relay.

By which I mean, Parson has an imo abnormal shock-the-natives rate. And I also mean, obviously KW is not something Stanley or Wanda or Slately remembers hearing about. Since I'm supposed to believe that Erfworld is big, and that that is the reason why Parson is so surprising - his ideas (may) have been known and tried before, but not all in the same place, and none here - I'd say that proves nothing.

[zilfallon]

Bland: KW may have been used before, but judging from reactions of the characters, it is highly possible that it is unique to Arkendish's unmatched thinkamancy.

Just like the flier relay.

By which I mean, Parson has an imo abnormal shock-the-natives rate. And I also mean, obviously KW is not something Stanley or Wanda or Slately remembers hearing about. Since I'm supposed to believe that Erfworld is big, and that that is the reason why Parson is so surprising - his ideas (may) have been known and tried before, but not all in the same place, and none here - I'd say that proves nothing.

True, it proves nothing. I said it is "possible" Well, saying "highly" possible for a speculation might have been a mistake, sorry.

[splintermute]

b) Links are tried, by the MK, by a ruler Stanley, presumably by other rulers too. That matchup artifact came from a link, remember. And if Stanley can order a link, another King or Queen can. How did Stanley, of all people, know this combo btw? This suggests that it should in fact be common.
c) Casters are not reluctant to go into 2-links at least.

Up until zombie-cano, all the links that we've seen or heard about were used for magic item creation. Offensive links might be entirely new to Erf.
Also, in the discussion about 2-caster links, it was revealed that they're much safer than 3-caster links. We don't know if Kingworld was 2-caster or 3-caster.

Another poster suggested that if Charlie were known to intercept Thinkagrams, sides hostile to him/her/it/them would not use them anymore. Win! Because other methods of communication are less flexible.

Another side effect of information about his ability to intercept thinkagrams getting out is that it would antagonize every thinkamancer on Erf (and judging by what we saw in the MK, they seem to be the most common caster type). Charlie always has his mercenary work to fall back on - the thinkamancers don't have any alternatives. Imagine if there was a "Thinkamancers of the world, unite!" revolution, and they all "subtly" persuaded their rulers (a la Maggie) to ally and go to war against Charlie.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Another side effect of information about his ability to intercept thinkagrams getting out is that it would antagonize every thinkamancer on Erf (and judging by what we saw in the MK, they seem to be the most common caster type). Charlie always has his mercenary work to fall back on - the thinkamancers don't have any alternatives. Imagine if there was a "Thinkamancers of the world, unite!" revolution, and they all "subtly" persuaded their rulers (a la Maggie) to ally and go to war against Charlie.

Heh. That would be a short war, not least because the Thinkamancers are obsolete.

Or are they? I'm imagining a scenario where Charlie hires Thinkamancers for the links. So you know, the archons won't be sad pandas every time KW gets cast. A Thinkamancer situation will be manageable.

Up until zombie-cano, all the links that we've seen or heard about were used for magic item creation. Offensive links might be entirely new to Erf.

This based on the common sense notion that casters are not sent in the front lines.

However, certain casters really should be in the frontlines and almost nowhere else: Dittomancers, Shockamancers, Foolamancers ...

Since linking is possible, since linking is powerful, chucking a Thinkamancer over there may be less of a stretch than it seems, precisely since they are relatively common.

And also, you don't need to invent your arrows on the battlefield, you can always test the possibilities in the safety of your castle yard. What could a Ditto-Thinka do? Octouple your units?

[zilfallon]

What could a Ditto-Thinka do? Octouple your units?

Something like that probably. 2 caster links, as everyone already knows, consist of a thinkamancer + some other school. So those links are used to amplify the "some other school"s powers to a very high degree. Increasing the amount of multiplication seems possible.

And this kinda hints that KW is a 2 caster link. I can't see how a 3. type of magic is involved. And it is strong to be a 2 caster link, so this makes me believe it is possible only thanks to Arkendish even more.

[BLANDCorporatio]

How about Thinka-Turna-Ditto?

you have the Thinka-Turna messing with the Time Discontinuum, while the Thinka-Ditto octuples their power! SYNERGY

[ftl]

Charlie conveniently gets new powers when the plot needs them

Or, possibly, reveals powers we didn't know he had, because he didn't have an opponent worthy of using those powers against before...

Just a note - from the perspective of me as a reader, those are the exact same thing, with pretty much the same effect on the drama and the plot and everything. I don't think pointing that out is helping the case at all.

[Nihila]

How about Thinka-Turna-Ditto?

you have the Thinka-Turna messing with the Time Discontinuum, while the Thinka-Ditto octuples their power! SYNERGY

And this kinda hints that KW is a 2 caster link. I can't see how a 3. type of magic is involved. And it is strong to be a 2 caster link, so this makes me believe it is possible only thanks to Arkendish even more.

Turna-Thinka-Change. It changes someone else's turn.

And, does it bug anyone else that we've made this thread one of the longest ever? And the comic it's about is, let's face it, black panels with Jillian and Lucky Charms.
What was it that BLAND said? We only have our words to keep the sanity in? Something like that?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Charlie conveniently gets new powers when the plot needs them

Or, possibly, reveals powers we didn't know he had, because he didn't have an opponent worthy of using those powers against before...

Just a note - from the perspective of me as a reader, those are the exact same thing, with pretty much the same effect on the drama and the plot and everything. I don't think pointing that out is helping the case at all.

Ok then I'll do it to- back-slap, well done. Not because I agree though I do, but because it's very succintly said. I shall now locate your brain and assimilate its textual compression skills.

What was it that BLAND said? We only have our words to keep the sanity in? Something like that?

Are you implying that we are all mad down here?

[zilfallon]

O.o we are speculating links! FUN!

Now how about a moneymancer - thinkamancer - dittomancer link? Would that be cheating? xD You know, converting gems - schmuckers to 2 times their original value, perhaps?

And about KW: Perhaps think - turn - date?

[splintermute]

Since linking is possible, since linking is powerful, chucking a Thinkamancer over there may be less of a stretch than it seems, precisely since they are relatively common.

They're relatively common, but I doubt any side has more than one. And they seem to have only one use - helping a ruler manage his kingdom and/or battles. The only thinkamancers we've seen outside of the MK are Maggie and Bunny, and their place seems to be at their rulers' side. I don't think it would be much of a stretch to suggest that Maggie and Bunny have never left their respective capitals (MK doesn't count).

Also, the more that I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that Kingworld was a trimancer spell, or some kind of super-augmented-unique-to-the-Arkendish-bimancer spell. Bimancers seem to just be able to cast their spells better and more efficiently. For something truly ground/world-breaking, you need trimancers.

And also, you don't need to invent your arrows on the battlefield, you can always test the possibilities in the safety of your castle yard. What could a Ditto-Thinka do? Octouple your units?

Yes, I would test my arrows in the courtyard. I would, however, prefer to test my nuclear weapons on Pacific atolls or in the New Mexico desert.

Edit - what if the third caster in Kingworld was a (but not the) dittomancer. If it cost 2 turns worth of juice (depending on what your definition of "turn" is; which depends on what your definition of "is" is) ... I've been assuming that casters could stockpile juice, or it was an ability specific to turnamancers, but maybe you need to toss a dittomancer into the mix to accomplish it.

[Nihila]

Are you implying that we are all mad down here?

Wait, that isn't a given? Didn't you have to check the box saying "Yes, I am insane" before you joined this forum?

O.o we are speculating links! FUN!

Now how about a moneymancer - thinkamancer - dittomancer link? Would that be cheating? xD You know, converting gems - schmuckers to 2 times their original value, perhaps?

I thought that any Commander could convert gems to Schmuckers. But, the Money-Thinka-Ditto could convert Schmuckers to gems worth twice original value, which a Commander could convert to Schmuckers, which the linked casters could convert into a gem worth FOUR times the original value, which the Commander... Ahem. That was insanity.

Yes, I would test my arrows in the courtyard. I would, however, prefer to test my nuclear weapons on Pacific atolls or in the New Mexico desert.

So test them in your friend and ally's courtyard. The courtyard of the capitol. If you can control it, no loss, if you can't, well, tempting newly neutral cities are tempting...

[zilfallon]

Well, links are really strong. But remember Sizemore's words: "No warlord was ever interested in magic before" And Sizemore was around during Saline IV's reign. He must have seen lots of warlords. So if Warlords not knowing magic is common, links being employed in combat is rare. GK has wonderful casters... A master-class croakamancer, a master-class foolamancer, an adept thinkamancer and a seemingly strong dirtamancer.

Come on Lord Hamster, i'm sure you can find a cheat engine out of these 4. But i'm curious, what would happen in a 3-caster link including a foolamancer? My imagination stopped working

[BLANDCorporatio]

Yes, I would test my arrows in the courtyard. I would, however, prefer to test my nuclear weapons on Pacific atolls or in the New Mexico desert.

Wherever you call safe for your precious casters. If you have some territory between cities, or just happen to know that a hex is a middle of nowhere because you have units planted some way around it, who's to stop you from trying to summon the Shoggoths?

EDIT:

Foolamancer-Mathmancer-Thinkamancer. Divide by 0 error. All stats and battle odds are off for this turn, Predictamancy fails because of causal singularity, and somebody must (re)write the outcome. That someone being the Overlord currently at turn.

EDIT 2:

Or, at least Foolamancer-Mathmancer-Thinkamancer for Integer Overflow. Change your opponent's stacks to negative numbers.

[zilfallon]

Math - fool - think: Maybe "fool" the units to make them believe they have no leadership/artifact/etc bonuses, debuffing them in this way?

But what would happen with a Foolamancer/Thinkamancer/Croakamancer link? Or Foolamancer/Thinkamancer/Dirtamancer link?

I think the second one might produce an effect parson mentioned in one of his klogs. "Draw a tunnel and maybe a train will emerge from it" Can this link be used to alter the terrain as the casters see fit, for a limited time?

What about the first combination? fool-think-croak?

[BLANDCorporatio]

How about

Foolamancer-Thinkamancer-Weirdomancer for David Lynch. Nobody understood exactly what the spell did, but that won't stop them arguing.