Book 2 – Page 39

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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Chris Goodwin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:32 pm

DevilDan wrote:Wait, did Gk use mostly air units against Uniroyal? If GK used ground forces, Kingworld becomes rather pointless against an overwhelming infantry force (particularly one that includes a unit capable of decrypting troop).


They sent in ground forces, but the ground forces were split up and outside of the city when Vanna cast Kingworld. (Edit: Unaroyal. I misread earlier. Ignore this.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DevilDan » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:41 pm

Chris Goodwin wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Wait, did Gk use mostly air units against Unaroyal? If GK used ground forces, Kingworld becomes rather pointless against an overwhelming infantry force (particularly one that includes a unit capable of decrypting troop).


They sent in ground forces, but the ground forces were split up and outside of the city when Vanna cast Kingworld.


You mean they would be in that hypothetical scenario. The question becomes whether even then that would have been winnable for Unaroyal. And even if it was, say, a fifty-fifty chance, then the amoral Charlie would have chosen to save that particular trap (and the revealing of said trap to the world) for a more favorable situation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Chris Goodwin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Oberon wrote:No. Please do not try to link Bea sending her Turnamancer into the MK before suiciding with Charlie being able to hire a Turnamancer. We have it straight from the decrypted Archons that Charlie is known to be a good employer within the MK, and often hires Turnamancers from the MK.


We have it straight from the decrypted Archons that Charlie often hires Casters from the Magic Kingdom.

We don't know how many Casters of which types there are. We know there are at least four Thinkamancers in residence in the Magic Kingdom. We don't know of any other Turnamancers. We can assume that Charlie has hired a Turnamancer in the past, because the Archons know that having a Turnamancer at Charlescomm causes them to pop Archons faster, but we have no way of knowing if there is one there right now. You have been assuming one is there, but there is in fact no evidence of a Turnamancer being in residence at Charlescomm.

Charlie does not have Vanna on hire. Faq does, paid for by Charlie. We know Vanna is not working directly for Charlie because Bea, before disbanding herself, had her casters pledge they would only work for Royal sides, and Charlie is not Royal.

And Charlie had to ally with Faq in order to get that done, at terms that he wasn't entirely happy with. And note how pissed Charlie was when Jillian left the battlespace.

So there isn't a lot of sense being made here. If we consider that Charlie is a smart guy, and also consider the capabilities that Kingworld provides to him in addition to all of his other well established powers, and then do a tiny bit of logical thinking, this becomes quite clear. Kingworld would and should be Charlie's "out" for any situation involving a decent amount of Archons that went sour on him.


When he can get a Turnamancer. And when he's willing to be out of touch with his entire Archon fleet for the amount of time it takes to line the spell up. And when he's willing to pay the Schmuckers to, as others have said, get that Turnamancer to risk her life in linkage (remember, it's not an every day thing; Casters can and do croak when a link goes wrong).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Chris Goodwin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:50 pm

DevilDan wrote:
Chris Goodwin wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Wait, did Gk use mostly air units against Unaroyal? If GK used ground forces, Kingworld becomes rather pointless against an overwhelming infantry force (particularly one that includes a unit capable of decrypting troop).


They sent in ground forces, but the ground forces were split up and outside of the city when Vanna cast Kingworld.


You mean they would be in that hypothetical scenario. The question becomes whether even then that would have been winnable for Unaroyal. And even if it was, say, a fifty-fifty chance, then the amoral Charlie would have chosen to save that particular trap (and the revealing of said trap to the world) for a more favorable situation.


Oh -- I misread. Unaroyal.

GK did send ground forces to Unaroyal, in summer update 043. Bea suicided and disbanded all of her field units rather than let any of them be decrypted. Bea thought she could have offered a defense against GK's column, which was at her gates. I assume it was all ground units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:51 pm

Aww man, not again. So far the most entertaining thing in this discussion was the Blue Movie Music associated with casters experimenting.

Which they do by the way.

Frequently.

What do you think flaking's all about? I'll tell ya. Nekkid, acid-fueled orgies of linkage in more ways than one. It's gotten so bad that the squares in the hierarchy have started disseminating rumours that if you do that kind of thing too much you go all warty and insane and are supporting Toolists.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Chris Goodwin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:02 pm

Going back and rereading.... Charlie used Ansom's decrypted presence in the GK column as bait to get Jillian on his side (summer updates 041). And now he's pissed at her for taking that bait!

Charlie screwed up. Badly. Whether it was his desire to flatten GK or his desire for the Mathamancy bracer, his judgment is clouded.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby build6 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:12 pm

Chris Goodwin wrote:Bea, before disbanding herself, had her casters pledge they would only work for Royal sides, and Charlie is not Royal.


I don't know if this has been discussed before, but how binding is a pledge of this kind? Like, they're doing it because they feel affection/genuine-loyalty for Bea to the extent that would survive Bea's demise? Or is it a kind of non-violable requirement like that Parson had to try everything he could in order to save GK from then-impending-doom?


Chris Goodwin wrote:Charlie screwed up. Badly. Whether it was his desire to flatten GK or his desire for the Mathamancy bracer, his judgment is clouded.



Yes - I don't quite get the "Charlie can do anything! He's too powerful!" thing going on sometimes - he definitely can mess up.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DevilDan » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:36 pm

build6 wrote:Yes - I don't quite get the "Charlie can do anything! He's too powerful!" thing going on sometimes - he definitely can mess up.


We should keep a list of mistakes Charlie has made:
Caught by zombcano
Revealing to Parson the true (?) extent of the bracer's powers
Failing to predict Jill's pull-out

What does Parson's list look like? Dwagon donut and aftermath don't count, I'd say.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby effataigus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:03 pm

Weird (possibly old) idea,

Kingworld might not be as useful for Charlescomm as I was originally thinking. Oberon discusses the situation where you keep a turnamancer with any force of archons that is too big to lose. I'm thinking that Kingworld might be unable to save these units for Charlescomm because of normal casting rules... let me explain:

Oh, and I'm ignoring cities for now because they only complicate things.

You can't cast "spells" except when you are either on turn or in an "active hex." An "active hex" is defined along the lines of "a hex that involves some non-allied units." Lets say a large force marches into a hex with a turnamancer (that Charlescomm had the foresight to link to in time for this discussion to become relevant). Kingworld is cast and that invading army's turn ends. It is now the next side's turn which, based upon natural turn order cannot be Charlescomm. If there are no other enemy forces nearby it becomes "night."

This means that the force that Charlescomm is trying to protect (and the turnamancer) is now stuck in the same hex as an invading army until the following dawn. If you can do any fighting at night under these circumstances, you haven't saved your force from this battle. If you would win the fight anyway then Kingworld didn't help you except to prevent the enemy from fleeing... if you would have lost the fight then you have sacrificed your Turnamancer... which still seems like a good gambit if you *really* needed to GTFO, but not something you can do every other round.

Clearly, this would mean that sides that go late in the day would benefit more from Kingworld abuse.

Am I misinterpreting any of the rules? It has been awhile since I read the off-turn casting errata.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby zilfallon » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:14 pm

Chris Goodwin wrote:We don't know how many Casters of which types there are. We know there are at least four Thinkamancers in residence in the Magic Kingdom. We don't know of any other Turnamancers. We can assume that Charlie has hired a Turnamancer in the past, because the Archons know that having a Turnamancer at Charlescomm causes them to pop Archons faster, but we have no way of knowing if there is one there right now. You have been assuming one is there, but there is in fact no evidence of a Turnamancer being in residence at Charlescomm.


Please...I'm aware there is no evidence of a Turnamancer able for being hired in MK at any time...But use some logic: There were lots of casters in 1 region of MK, the place where GK's portal opened to. And a map-like view of mk has been shown, and it is big... Even without any evidence, i refuse to believe that Vanna is the only Turnamancer around nowadays...We're talking about the whole world here. There can't be 1 Turnamancer for hire.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Nihila » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:01 pm

zilfallon wrote:
Chris Goodwin wrote:We don't know how many Casters of which types there are. We know there are at least four Thinkamancers in residence in the Magic Kingdom. We don't know of any other Turnamancers. We can assume that Charlie has hired a Turnamancer in the past, because the Archons know that having a Turnamancer at Charlescomm causes them to pop Archons faster, but we have no way of knowing if there is one there right now. You have been assuming one is there, but there is in fact no evidence of a Turnamancer being in residence at Charlescomm.


Please...I'm aware there is no evidence of a Turnamancer able for being hired in MK at any time...But use some logic: There were lots of casters in 1 region of MK, the place where GK's portal opened to. And a map-like view of mk has been shown, and it is big... Even without any evidence, i refuse to believe that Vanna is the only Turnamancer around nowadays...We're talking about the whole world here. There can't be 1 Turnamancer for hire.
And, after all, Charlie's good reputation in the MK has to be worth something, so more casters might be willing to enter a link with Charlie--especially a bimancer link, which has been shown to be stable--as part of a contract.
effataigus wrote:Clearly, this would mean that sides that go late in the day would benefit more from Kingworld abuse.
Or sides allied with sides that go late in the day. If Charlie gets formally integrated into the RCC (via Trammenis), his turn will be later than GK's.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby splintermute » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:06 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
splintermute wrote:Why didn't he use it at Unaroyal? He couldn't get any units in place. Any Charlescomm units in the hex would have been considered enemies and shot down on site. He couldn't negotiate with Queen Bea because she wasn't taking his calls.


Chit Rule Railroad, since I'm pissed off at splintermute, could you tell them that I said that since Charlie had good connections in the Magic Kingdom, he/she/it/they could have used a caster there as an envoy? :P

Sorry, Chit, Vanna can't come and play in the MK. I've been keeping her "busy" in my capital (we were "experimenting").

Bzzzzt.

What was that? I think that was an un-allied caster trying to come through my MK portal for some reason. The portal defenses must have gotten him. Either that, or Jeftichew just vaporized another intruder.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby effataigus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:34 pm

Nihila wrote:
effataigus wrote:Clearly, this would mean that sides that go late in the day would benefit more from Kingworld abuse.
Or sides allied with sides that go late in the day. If Charlie gets formally integrated into the RCC (via Trammenis), his turn will be later than GK's.


Good point... hence the mess that we're currently in. Though this partially answers the "if Kingworld is so OP, why hasn't Charlie taken over the world with it" question. Charlie would need an ally with a later turn that is willing to help him systematically ROFLstomp the world via Kingworld cheesing.

Also, on the question of "why haven't other sides with later natural turns cheesed Kingworld," its only the dish that allows the remote linkup (to our knowledge)... to effectively guard a force using turn-stop powers you'd need all of the casters required to cast the spell to be in the hex with the force being protected (unless you're Charlie who, as mentioned, is hampered by his turn order). This means you'd have to commit two casters (at least) to the hex with the units... given the power of casters, had those two casters been any other two casters, it's quite possible that the force you are trying to save would be able to take on the invading force straight up.

Still very situationally broken (ahem, this situation), but starting to sound like the situations will come by about as often as a battle within a couple hexes of an extinct volcano (especially when considering the Faq skyline).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby DevilDan » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:50 pm

And would you need to keep them linked at least a turn in advance, I wonder?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Oberon » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:40 pm

Chris Goodwin wrote:
Oberon wrote:No. Please do not try to link Bea sending her Turnamancer into the MK before suiciding with Charlie being able to hire a Turnamancer. We have it straight from the decrypted Archons that Charlie is known to be a good employer within the MK, and often hires Turnamancers from the MK.

We have it straight from the decrypted Archons that Charlie often hires Casters from the Magic Kingdom.
You are correct, Charlie often hires casters. And casters who are also Turnamancers speed his Archon production. Which feeds his shmucker engine. Which is also the sole example of caster hiring given in the story. And if hiring MK casters wasn't profitable, Charlie would have no incentive to do this "often." So yeah, I made a completely far fetched assumption that Charlie often hires Turnamancers. I don't know how I could have fit that much tin foil on my head, it is obviously an insupportable conclusion. :lol:
Chris Goodwin wrote:We can assume that Charlie has hired a Turnamancer in the past, because the Archons know that having a Turnamancer at Charlescomm causes them to pop Archons faster, but we have no way of knowing if there is one there right now. You have been assuming one is there, but there is in fact no evidence of a Turnamancer being in residence at Charlescomm.
I'd like to point out that I never said that Charlie has a Turnamancer at Charlescomm right now. He doesn't need one there right now, unless it is there to speed Archon production. He does need a Turnamancer to be present with any significant number of Archons, though. This makes them much safer due to the potential to cast KW and save them when and if events go south.
Chris Goodwin wrote:And Charlie had to ally with Faq in order to get that done, at terms that he wasn't entirely happy with. And note how pissed Charlie was when Jillian left the battlespace.
Charlie is not allied with anyone right now. This was specified in the text update that had Charlie going first, Book 2 Text 18.
Chris Goodwin wrote:When he can get a Turnamancer[, Charlie can cast KW whenever he pleases]. And when he's willing to be out of touch with his entire Archon fleet for the amount of time it takes to line the spell up. And when he's willing to pay the Schmuckers to, as others have said, get that Turnamancer to risk her life in linkage (remember, it's not an every day thing; Casters can and do croak when a link goes wrong).
I addressed most of your points already. But for the sake of being thorough:
1) Paying for the Turnamancer isn't an unusual or burdensome cost, because Charlie often hires casters;
2) Being disconnected from his field units for a turn or less isn't that much of a cost. Every other Side lives with this state all the time, it doesn't end after they cast a spell to end another Sides turn, and it doesn't keep them from doing whatever they feel like doing;
3) Charlie being disconnected from his Archons is not at all an unusual situation: "Since yesterday, communications through the Arkendish were blacked out, which always put everyone in a bad mood." It always put everyone in a bad mood. So, no real count or frequency of occurance, but it is clear that this is not an unusual situation. We know that linking does this, and that Charlie often hires MK casters. The safest conclusion is that Charlie links with hired casters with some degree of frequency. Which leads one to conclude that hired MK casters do not refuse to link;
4) There is no evidence that MK casters cost more to be in the field, or to link. It is a reasonable position, however, and it may well be fact. But it is still a guess;
5) Bimancer links are stated to be less risky than trimancer links, and there is no evidence that they can cause death. We've never seen one go wrong or heard a description of this happening. So you're just speculating, and it seems as though you're overstating theories and then concluding as though they were established fact.

Here is an established fact: Vanna was both in the field and in a link as a hired caster when she participated in KW. This shows that despite any hypothetical extra charge for additional risk, that this is quite feasible. And were this remarkable in any way, a well written story would typically convey this in some manner. Slately, for example, could have commented on how odd it was to see a caster in the field. He did not. He commented on her silence, and his instructions to not speak to her, but not on her presence. The absence of any remark by any character that the situation was extraordinary leads the reader to the conclusion that the situation was normal and not at all out of place. This is an assumption, yes, but one supported by the story.

ftl wrote:
Oberon wrote:How would a veiled archon floating nearby foil the encryption? If the veiled archon is floating in your hex and can see your eyebook as you're communicating on it, you've got worse problems than lack of encryption.
I refer you to any of the prior "using their Eyebook" panels of any strip containing one. Do you see elaborate measures being taken to prevent anyone peeping over the shoulder? Neither do I. So it's not that you have "worse problems", you just have "the same problems." Archons are known to be able to veil, and yet other than Sammy we haven't seen a single measure taken against that possibility.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:03 pm

Oberon wrote:
ftl wrote:How would a veiled archon floating nearby foil the encryption? If the veiled archon is floating in your hex and can see your eyebook as you're communicating on it, you've got worse problems than lack of encryption.
I refer you to any of the prior "using their Eyebook" panels of any strip containing one. Do you see elaborate measures being taken to prevent anyone peeping over the shoulder? Neither do I. So it's not that you have "worse problems", you just have "the same problems." Archons are known to be able to veil, and yet other than Sammy we haven't seen a single measure taken against that possibility.


Yes, we've seen measures taken against that possibility. Characters look around and walk around - that's a measure taken against somebody veiled being there. Veils aren't impenetrable. To stay veiled in the same hex as an enemy army is HARD. Remember, veils don't turn you invisible; they just make you look like something else reasonably similar. If the commanders Move to a different hex on their turn, you can't follow. If you do anything that would be out of the ordinary for the object you're disguising yourself as, that'll tip anyone off. (Sammy's "elaborate measures" were just "look around and be watchful". )

Besides, at TBfGK, all the action was inside the city of GK. Charlie wouldn't have been able to easily sneak archons *in* to a well-defended city. And Parson moved around plenty between city zones, which the Archons wouldn't have been able to do.

It transfers to wour world, too. In real life, in our world, the problem of someone decrypting your radio communications is very different from the problem of a spy sitting in at your planning table. If your radio communications have been compromised, there's ways around that. You can send messages by courier, you can change encryption, you can have an in-person chat with the person you want to talk to. If somebody is looking over your shoulder and reporting to the enemy? Nothing that can be done there. Changing the delivery mechanism doesn't help - they hear the words when they're first spoken. Heck, you've got bigger problems because the spy can not only hear the plan, they can hear discussions of things that aren't being sent as messages, the rationales and the strategy discussions and all that. Hell, an in-place spy can even just stab you in the back at the last moment. Or sabotage.

It's quite a different problem, and a much more severe one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:14 pm

Oberon wrote:Slately, for example, could have commented on how odd it was to see a caster in the field. He did not. He commented on her silence, and his instructions to not speak to her, but not on her presence. The absence of any remark by any character that the situation was extraordinary leads the reader to the conclusion that the situation was normal and not at all out of place. This is an assumption, yes, but one supported by the story.

1. There is a big difference between "any situation involving a decent amount of Archons" and "the presumably portal-equipped garrison of a capital city allied to the turnamancer". If, in the future, Charlie parks a bunch of archons to defend a capital (especially his own), I would hope to see a turnamancer or some explanation for why he didn't arrange for one.

In fact, it might be that hiring a turnamancer to increase archon production is only cost-effective when combined with the effectiveness of the turnamancer in defending Charlescomm HQ, and it is plausible that the archons Parson talked to were not informed of that additional reason why there is often a turnamancer at HQ.

2. You could hardly expect a Jetstone unit to consider the tower of Spacerock to be "in the field", and empathy is clearly not a strength for Slately, so I'm not surprised he didn't make any comments of any sort on Vanna's journey to Spacerock. Especially since he couldn't talk to her.


By the way, it has not been established that archons can veil units other than themselves, which would make it more difficult to be on standby with a mounted turnamancer... (I know, I know, it hasn't been established that they can't, either. You don't need to point that out.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby Dr Pepper » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:43 am

Chris Goodwin wrote:Going back and rereading.... Charlie used Ansom's decrypted presence in the GK column as bait to get Jillian on his side (summer updates 041). And now he's pissed at her for taking that bait!



Good point. He should have known she'd take the bait literally as well as figuratively, but his belief in his ability to control her blinded him. Love is an intangible stat. And so is arrogance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby splintermute » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:12 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Oberon wrote:Slately, for example, could have commented on how odd it was to see a caster in the field. He did not. He commented on her silence, and his instructions to not speak to her, but not on her presence. The absence of any remark by any character that the situation was extraordinary leads the reader to the conclusion that the situation was normal and not at all out of place. This is an assumption, yes, but one supported by the story.

1. There is a big difference between "any situation involving a decent amount of Archons" and "the presumably portal-equipped garrison of a capital city allied to the turnamancer". If, in the future, Charlie parks a bunch of archons to defend a capital (especially his own), I would hope to see a turnamancer or some explanation for why he didn't arrange for one.

In Oberon's defense (I can't believe I'm writing that) there are some caster types that seem specifically designed to work out in the field - croakamancers, dollamancers, dirtamancers (i.e. all the casters that can create/lead units), foolamancers, dittomancers, weirdomancers, florists, healomancers, rhyme-o-mancers (i.e. combat support casters), and shockamancers (i.e. casters with direct offensive capabilities). I would put turnamancers, with the ability to "turn" enemy units, in that third category.

OTOH, if you define "in the field" as "in a hex without a MK portal and with enemy forces in it" the only field casters we've seen so far are Jack, Wanda, the dittomancer (and, implicitly, Ace and the healomancer), and Vanna when Ansom was taken.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 39

Postby ftl » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:29 am

Just a note - Dollamancers seem to be quite usable without putting them in the field. In TBfGK, Jetstone used their Battle Bears without the dollamancer around. Same with Caesar.

I think Casters that create golems from scratch aren't necessarily going to be risked on the front lines very often. Sure, they give a bonus, but that's only worth risking the caster for if it really is a Last Stand, like the force at expository bridge was supposed to be.

(Most others I agree with, though. A croakamancer needs to be where the bodies are. Foolamancers need to be where the enemy is, to fool them. A lot of others can have use both in the field and at home, and many of them we don't know enough about to say anything with.)
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