Book 2 – Page 40

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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Smoker » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:09 pm

fjolnir wrote:we must remember his OTHER experiment during the summer updates to really figure out the plan with the armory, his attempt at riding banana proved that dwagons have a maximum upward weight limit, combine that with off-turn resupplying from the ARMORY it quickly becomes clear that he's going to attempt a max weight dwagon crash over hostile territory to ensure max coverage of his "dropped bricks"


and more to the point, why try to overload your Dwagons with bucketloads of extra helmets balanced on its back, when you can just tell it to stop flapping?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby ftl » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:54 pm

Well, the closest we came to an explanation for what you can do off-turn is http://www.erfworld.com/2010/06/book-2- ... -klog-001/ . I'd thought that mentioned resupplying, but rereading it, it doesn't explicitly mention that. It does say you can spend money off-turn, such as to upgrade a city.

Is there anyone that has a more direct canon link about being able to resupply off-turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby effataigus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:28 pm

This strip indicates to me that Parson doesn't think Ruthlessness is in the armory. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-08.jpg

ftl's take on it would definitely fit the story better, though I still have a hard time believing that Parson would grab a sword just because he associates it with command. We'll know soon enough though!

ftl, I second your confusion regarding what has made people think off-turn resupply is possible. I went back looking for it awhile ago and couldn't find anything. Smoker brings up some good evidence to suggest that it's not, but I can't think of anything conclusive either way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Smoker » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:09 pm

Going for the SoR?
Extremely unlikely that it still exists. Also unlikely that an equivalent stat-boosting weapon would be lying around when their most valuable units are out in the field without it.

Going for a normal sword?
Doesn't really fit Parson's character, plus it would make for a lousy page cliff-hanger.

Going to teleport items to Wanda?
There's no evidence (that I can think of) to even hint this is possible.

Going to figure out which items the armored units should drop first?
Requires some sort of ass-pull to change the odds to anything worth attempting, and even if they are going to drop equipment, does it matter if helmets go before boots?

They are off turn, and I dont think that anything they have in the capital can get to ... wait. I've got it.

Spoiler: show
There's a hugely powerful dirtamancy trap in the Armory. Parson has already made a deal with Cubbins to turn, so when he pulls his item for Ace, its actually a Thermal Dirtonater (god damn I'm funny..) Cubbins has just enough time to cram himself into some kind of magical hat of life savery before the top half of Spacerock is blasted so high it actually lives up to its name.

And then Jillian discovers that a kiss of true love can reverse decryption, and Ansom is restored to life. When Spacerock falls, Ansom becomes barbarian and therefore unallied. This happens at the precise moment that Jillian and Duncan leave the hex to discuss Ansom's surprise birthday (of which he now has three per year) and the unled FAQ forces slay him faster than he can say "I hereby ally with FAQ".

Overcome with grief, Jillian disbands herself by sitting in the garage with her Gwiffon left running.


Edit: On a serious note, I found this:
Vurp wrote:Tribes have no purse and keep no Schmuckers. When they are in an alliance, their allied side pops rations for them from its treasury. But a feral tribe must hunt or gather or farm or mine.

If they are given Schmuckers, the tribe must convert it all to new or promoted units or popped rations or equipment on the next turn.


Can that be exploited? Maybe by breaking/mending alliance to trigger a new turn or something?

Actually yeah, if GK gave them a bucket of money then they broke alliance, but the hobgobs still had their own leadership to stop them from attacking GK units, they could rejoin the alliance, which means their turn starts again although they do not get their move back. They then spend all their money on new troops, and pop them as close to the ground as possible.

Sorry...I'm stuck in a hotel room with nothing else to think about.. fml.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Housellama » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: 'Food Fight'. Don't forget that Parson has never (on camera) tested the brick idea. When talking about the plan, he tells Wanda that it's a cheat and may not work. I dunno that he's actually going to use FOOD, but I think he's going to have the units use kinetic bombardment on the enemy. IE, he's going to throw stuff at them.

Re: Charlie. I think that Charlie's dislike of GK isn't because of Stanley. I think it's solely based on his absolute hatred of Parson. I get the feeling that so far in Erfworld, nobody's came close to touching Charlie for manipulation, intelligence and control. Charlie's had his own way for a long time. I believe that Parson is the first person who has bloodied Charlie's nose, and more than bloodied it. He's beaten Charlie at his own game in desperate situations where Charlie presumably held all the advantages, more than once. He's taken everything that Charlie has thrown at him so far and either made it work for him, or made it totally irrelevant. (IE, Responding to DDR by blowing up the whole place). Charlie's one of the few people who takes the long view. Charlie's not thinking one turn ahead or ten turns ahead. He's thinking way bigger than that. Charlie's displayed arrogance on several occasions. Previously that might have been totally justified. Now... Parson has made Charlie look like a chump, and he's not thrilled.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:31 pm

Smoker wrote:Actually yeah, if GK gave them a bucket of money then they broke alliance, but the hobgobs still had their own leadership to stop them from attacking GK units, they could rejoin the alliance, which means their turn starts again although they do not get their move back. They then spend all their money on new troops, and pop them as close to the ground as possible.


Pretty sure new troops would need to be popped in a friendly city or settlement and can't be popped in mid-air in the middle of a battlefield.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:41 pm

I do note the chapter title is, "It's Raining Men."

I have been pondering the hobgobwin possibility for a while now, but it's still a big muddle of a concept that is in need of a practical expression.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Krennson » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:33 pm

oooh... there's an unpleasant possibility. Assume that the arkenpliers can work across the air/ground boundary.

Have your dragons belly-flop onto large groups of melee infantry. Have Living hobgoblin knights do dive-kicks onto enemy leadership. Use your own PEOPLE as falling weapons. So, a fair number of your units die or are disabled, but they take an equal or greater number of enemies with them. Then Decrypt everyone on both sides who died. If the dragons can take out enough melee opponents when they fall, they may be able to implement the decryption blender against the merely archery-capable targets.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Housellama » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:59 pm

Krennson wrote:oooh... there's an unpleasant possibility. Assume that the arkenpliers can work across the air/ground boundary.

Have your dragons belly-flop onto large groups of melee infantry. Have Living hobgoblin knights do dive-kicks onto enemy leadership. Use your own PEOPLE as falling weapons. So, a fair number of your units die or are disabled, but they take an equal or greater number of enemies with them. Then Decrypt everyone on both sides who died. If the dragons can take out enough melee opponents when they fall, they may be able to implement the decryption blender against the merely archery-capable targets.


That's it. That's what he's going to do. When they come out to give the terms of surrender, he's going to drop people onto them, a la Bogroll.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Dancingrage » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:12 pm

Ah, I think I see what's going to happen:

Parson's going to the armory because he wants most likely to up his combat bonus, which would then be distributed to all other units on his side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Nows7 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:50 pm

Dancingrage wrote:Ah, I think I see what's going to happen:

Parson's going to the armory because he wants most likely to up his combat bonus, which would then be distributed to all other units on his side.


Unlikely, Parson stated that the combat bonus wouldn't save them. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-05-24.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby DoctorJest » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:29 am

Nows7 wrote:
Dancingrage wrote:Ah, I think I see what's going to happen:

Parson's going to the armory because he wants most likely to up his combat bonus, which would then be distributed to all other units on his side.


Unlikely, Parson stated that the combat bonus wouldn't save them. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-05-24.jpg


The situation has changed. The combat bonus would not have saved them if they were being led by Ossomer or Sylvia. With Parson's plan, however, perhaps every little bit will help. An additional combat bonus might help with the probably already long odds.

I don't know if this is the reason he's going to the armory, but it shouldn't be dismissed just because one of the Decrypted's bonuses in a "sitting duck" tactical strategy situation wouldn't have helped. Everything is different now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby DoctorJest » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:30 am

Krennson wrote:oooh... there's an unpleasant possibility. Assume that the arkenpliers can work across the air/ground boundary.


That's quite an assumption.

Possible, but it's a coin toss at this point from what we know.

Use your own PEOPLE as falling weapons.


I'm pretty sure that's the plan. The exact logistics are still up for debate, however.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Smoker » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:48 am

DoctorJest wrote:
Smoker wrote:some stuff


Pretty sure new troops would need to be popped in a friendly city or settlement and can't be popped in mid-air in the middle of a battlefield.


That does make sense, however I dont think its stated anywhere. Do natural allies even have settlements? I dont recall hearing about one, and NA's need some mechanism for reproduction when they are not currently allied with a side. Perhaps you can just pop units in the same hex as the tribe Cheif...

Alternatively, the Hobgoblins beg Slately to let them turn to Jetstone, so that they ARE in a friendly city, then they pull a nasty and switch back... but I seem to recall reading that Gobwins and Marbits cant (or just wont?) ally to the same side

DoctorJest wrote:
Krennson wrote:oooh... there's an unpleasant possibility. Assume that the arkenpliers can work across the air/ground boundary.


That's quite an assumption.

Possible, but it's a coin toss at this point from what we know.

Use your own PEOPLE as falling weapons.


I'm pretty sure that's the plan. The exact logistics are still up for debate, however.


I agree with the good Doctor. The story is heavily suggesting they use the "fall" mechanism to cross boundaries. If they jump, crash, pop, or drop is unknown. After that, Wanda decrypts any and every corpse available.

Spoiler: show
Also there's been talk about "food fights" and "harvesting" units, but I dont know of any way to exploit this: Remember that Bogroll could not be decrypted because there was not enough of him, so decrypting dwagonburgers doesn't sound like it could work, even if you COULD get them into the field. I think this is a dead end, unless there's a new rule that Parson knows that we dont.

The only other way to read the "food fight" and "harvesting" lines, is to find a way to exploit Jetstone's reduced treasury. If there was some way to force Jetstone to spend shmuckers, they would have to harvest/disband units to stay afloat. I still dont see how that can win the battle though, since they dont have to pay upkeep until the start of their next turn anyway.


The clue's I'm particularly interested in are "It's raining men." "Its simple, its dumb, its a cheat and it may not work. And if it does work, it'll be a mess. We're gonna lose most of you anyway." "It involves turning this battle into a food fight" "I do see an exploit here, but we need Wanda alive."

Although interestingly enough..

Jack, in text update 21 wrote:"...juice will be spent on us. And then..."

He leaned forward and tapped the Arkenpliers with his cane, affronting the Decrypted and annoying Wanda. "...must be spent again. Provided you are alive. And quick enough to catch us as we fall."


Implies that Jack doesn't think Wanda can decrypt across zones, so Wanda might need to get to ground, and take a risk on Falling.

There are a few more things I'm looking forward to seeing, though..

1) Will Charlie join in the fight, even though he is reluctant to reveal himself to Parson? A concentrated force of Archons (who are immune to foolamancy) could really spoil Wanda's day.
2) Will the mystery of the missing goblins become relevant?
3) What is Parson going to the Armory for? Do they keep luckamancy scrolls there, to try to tip the odds on the Fall?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby scotchmonger » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:08 am

Smoker wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:
Smoker wrote:some stuff


Pretty sure new troops would need to be popped in a friendly city or settlement and can't be popped in mid-air in the middle of a battlefield.


That does make sense, however I dont think its stated anywhere. Do natural allies even have settlements? I dont recall hearing about one, and NA's need some mechanism for reproduction when they are not currently allied with a side. Perhaps you can just pop units in the same hex as the tribe Cheif...

Alternatively, the Hobgoblins beg Slately to let them turn to Jetstone, so that they ARE in a friendly city, then they pull a nasty and switch back... but I seem to recall reading that Gobwins and Marbits cant (or just wont?) ally to the same side

DoctorJest wrote:
Krennson wrote:oooh... there's an unpleasant possibility. Assume that the arkenpliers can work across the air/ground boundary.


That's quite an assumption.

Possible, but it's a coin toss at this point from what we know.

Use your own PEOPLE as falling weapons.


I'm pretty sure that's the plan. The exact logistics are still up for debate, however.


I agree with the good Doctor. The story is heavily suggesting they use the "fall" mechanism to cross boundaries. If they jump, crash, pop, or drop is unknown. After that, Wanda decrypts any and every corpse available.

Spoiler: show
Also there's been talk about "food fights" and "harvesting" units, but I dont know of any way to exploit this: Remember that Bogroll could not be decrypted because there was not enough of him, so decrypting dwagonburgers doesn't sound like it could work, even if you COULD get them into the field. I think this is a dead end, unless there's a new rule that Parson knows that we dont.

The only other way to read the "food fight" and "harvesting" lines, is to find a way to exploit Jetstone's reduced treasury. If there was some way to force Jetstone to spend shmuckers, they would have to harvest/disband units to stay afloat. I still dont see how that can win the battle though, since they dont have to pay upkeep until the start of their next turn anyway.


The clue's I'm particularly interested in are "It's raining men." "Its simple, its dumb, its a cheat and it may not work. And if it does work, it'll be a mess. We're gonna lose most of you anyway." "It involves turning this battle into a food fight" "I do see an exploit here, but we need Wanda alive."

Although interestingly enough..

Jack, in text update 21 wrote:"...juice will be spent on us. And then..."

He leaned forward and tapped the Arkenpliers with his cane, affronting the Decrypted and annoying Wanda. "...must be spent again. Provided you are alive. And quick enough to catch us as we fall."


Implies that Jack doesn't think Wanda can decrypt across zones, so Wanda might need to get to ground, and take a risk on Falling.

There are a few more things I'm looking forward to seeing, though..

1) Will Charlie join in the fight, even though he is reluctant to reveal himself to Parson? A concentrated force of Archons (who are immune to foolamancy) could really spoil Wanda's day.
2) Will the mystery of the missing goblins become relevant?
3) What is Parson going to the Armory for? Do they keep luckamancy scrolls there, to try to tip the odds on the Fall?



Number 3 is what I was thinking about. They only need to guarantee Wanda's safety. Use Luckmancy or any other mechanic available to make sure she's alive and well after her fall (She fell once before but was incapacitated). Everybody else can take the random roll -- Live and fight, Lay there dying, or die and become decrypted. It becomes one big messy melee on the ground.

1) I don't think he can join directly. It would kill his business model -- a mercenary who always plays for money is predictable and can be trusted (up to the exact letter of the contract)). One with a grudge or personal agenda can be manipulated. IMO that's what Tramennis is trying, his side is out of money so under normal circumstances hiring Charlie's out of the question, but if you can get him to do something for free... That's also what makes it slander in Charlie's eyes.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:25 pm

Smoker wrote:Implies that Jack doesn't think Wanda can decrypt across zones, so Wanda might need to get to ground, and take a risk on Falling.


I just realized something... we've seen Wanda using magic to shield herself from apparent shockamancy before, after Ansom accepted Charlie's revised contract in GK and the archons saturated the airspace with zappage. Damage from falling is specifically natural shockamancy, so it may be that Wanda (or even casters in general) can protect themselves from it. Of course, immediately afterward Wanda was incapacitated by hitting the ground, but I get the feeling that combat in Erfworld is somewhat round-based, like in D&D, so that could be explained as Wanda already using up her "immediate action" for the round.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby zilfallon » Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:36 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Smoker wrote:Implies that Jack doesn't think Wanda can decrypt across zones, so Wanda might need to get to ground, and take a risk on Falling.


I just realized something... we've seen Wanda using magic to shield herself from apparent shockamancy before, after Ansom accepted Charlie's revised contract in GK and the archons saturated the airspace with zappage. Damage from falling is specifically natural shockamancy, so it may be that Wanda (or even casters in general) can protect themselves from it. Of course, immediately afterward Wanda was incapacitated by hitting the ground, but I get the feeling that combat in Erfworld is somewhat round-based, like in D&D, so that could be explained as Wanda already using up her "immediate action" for the round.


Now that you mention it, it makes sense. Maybe she can put up a shockamancy shield which blocks 1 shockamancy spell, and as you mentioned, since falling is natural shockamancy, it is possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Goshen » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:32 pm

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but many of Wanda's people are already uncroaked and cannot be uncroaked again. Of course, that still leaves the dwagons which are big and heavy enough to hurt when they fall on you....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby Krennson » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:54 pm

The warlords are generally uncroaked, but the dwagons aren't, and i think the hobgoblin knights aren't, although i'm not certain how many knights they have with them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 40

Postby CorrTerek » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:56 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:To go and retrieve the Sword of Ruthlessness is, even if only at a symbolic level, a step backwards, and in terms of story it undermines both Parson's so far progress and a very touching F-Bomb way at the end of Book 1.


I agree. Throwing away the Sword was a very important gesture on Parson's part, and for him to go back to the storeroom and just pick it up again (with no prior buildup or foreshadowing, even) would majorly cheapen that gesture. It wouldn't be enough to make me stop reading Erfworld, but it wouldn't really sit right for me.
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