Book 2 – Page 41

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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby paint » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:05 am

Jon wrote:
Camouflage wrote:
Jon wrote:How does Charlie know Parson's last name?


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F089.jpg

First Panel.

How does Charlie know what Parson looks like (such that he is able to provide a very accurate image to Tramennis)?


In Book 1 Charlie's Archons were holding the airspace over GK for some time while maintaining an inofficial cease-fire. They were giving him live video-surveillance of all that happened in and around GK via Thinkagramm, including what they saw through the big windows of the old throne room.


Perfect. Thank you!

seconded and that explains why the images look like parson book 1 . there "file footage" .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby paint » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:20 am

Decorus wrote:Charlies Archons can have Leadership this means he assigns one as Chief Warlord and its leadership bonus is applied to all of his Archons, it Provides the industrial bonus.
He slaps one Archon with leadership in every stack and he's golden on command bonuses. He does not need warlords as his Archons can do everything a Warlord can and more.
The only reason he wants Parson is because Parson is that dangerous and completely destroys the balance of power for what ever side has him.
Charlie is also open to killing Parson, but he would rather capture and turn him.
The only weakness Parson has is he is a Garrison Heavy unit which makes it impossible for him to lead the army into battle and level up.

but it's not really a weakness since he can be promoted out of garrisan
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Krennson » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:35 am

I wonder if parson can kill-farm? can they send back captured units for him to execute and thus level? for that matter, can he execute units nominally on his own side and level?

if that sort of thing is theoretically possible, the main limitation would be that parson might refuse to execute speech-capable units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby splintermute » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:48 am

Krennson wrote:I wonder if parson can kill-farm? can they send back captured units for him to execute and thus level? for that matter, can he execute units nominally on his own side and level?

if that sort of thing is theoretically possible, the main limitation would be that parson might refuse to execute speech-capable units.

Yes, they can send him back captured units to execute to level him. See: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-03.jpg . I don't think you gain experience for killing your own units - rulers could exploit that to level themselves astronomically.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Decorus » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:10 pm

Archons really are scary multipurpose jack of all trades master of none units.
Now the real question is it merely 25 thousand schmuckers to designate Tram as the Heir or is it 25 times the number of decrypted archons still with Wanda?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby zilfallon » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:11 pm

"merely" 25k? it isnt a low amount, considering that a warlord has around 1k upkeep. And it isnt the price for POPPING an heir, it the price to promote an existing warlord to heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Spot » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:47 pm

Moik wrote:"Interesting that you would say 'it'."

Hmmmm... Trammenis is quick. That's dangerous. He's gonna be fun to watch.



Quick... but maybe not quick enough.

Trammenis makes the (incorrect) assumption that Charlie used the word "'it" because he was referring to an uncroaked... but the much more likely answer is that Charlie thinks of everyone and everything in Erfworld as an "it", and is simply flustered enough by Parson's re-promotion to reveal how he really thinks of others.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby joosy » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:19 pm

zilfallon wrote:"merely" 25k? it isnt a low amount, considering that a warlord has around 1k upkeep. And it isnt the price for POPPING an heir, it the price to promote an existing warlord to heir.


Actually 1k per Warlord is rather high. only Parson has that high of an upkeep. I think the only exact cost estimate that has been states is for higher level archons: around 250 schmuckers per turn. And is what Charlie is offering actual schmuckers or just 'credit' for his services. He explicity says 'credit' but then dangles the amount out there to try and convince Trammenis to do what he wants. But Tramennis is the diplomat, not the Warlord and is able to maintain focus on what HE wants not what Charlie wants.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:58 pm

Or it is a magic item that's powered by a combination of Signamancy and Turnamancy.
Or maybe its a arkentool. Maybe his clothing suddenly became armor of invincibility. Or maybe... they work like they always did. The sane assumption is it didn't change.
Look, an arrow shot into the edge of a hex sticks in midair. That should knock any idea of physics right out the window.
Because it hit a magic wall. In every fantasy setting I have ever read about the basic assumption is physics still works when magic isn't around. Just because a wizard can cast fireball, or people can firebend, or walls of force appear, doesn't mean that standard physics doesn't work at other times.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:11 pm

Lamech wrote:We haven't seen much indication that the basic laws of Erf are anything more than earth+natural mancies.


Erm, yes we have.

Food isn't grown. It "pops". So do people. Money just appears in a treasury. An empty bank vault, if peeked in by a CW, generates a money bonus. Same with an empty butcher shop and food. Arrows stick into hex barriers when it's not their turn. Hex barriers selectively exist: they don't exist for non-garrison units on their turn. The WORLD RUNS IN TURNS. There's a bazillion basic laws of Erfworld that are fundamentally completely different from how anything works on Earth to the point to say that it's a real stretch to say Earth science would work there. Heck, who is to say Sulpher or Saltpeter even exist? How do we know Charcoal won't de-pop as "burned wood" at the end of a turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby zilfallon » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:30 pm

Good point, DoctorJest. We do not even know if it is possible to harvest lumber from trees, or we don't even know if it's possible to damage trees AT ALL since they could just be part of the terrain.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:55 pm

Gravity works. Fire works. Parson's watch works. Toliet paper works. Parson still works just fine. Complete with getting tired, and sore legs. And losing weight. Mirrors work. Crap still smells. I mean sure maybe all those things we have seen so far in erf just happens to mimic earth, or maybe earth's physics still underlies things, and wargame rules got layed over the top of that. It is a heck of a lot simpler. And even if all these thing Erf just somehow decides to mimic, why would it suddenly stop for gun powder? It mimics batteries, and electricty, and whatever the watch uses to light up.

Erm, yes we have.

Food isn't grown. It "pops". So do people. Money just appears in a treasury. An empty bank vault, if peeked in by a CW, generates a money bonus. Same with an empty butcher shop and food. Arrows stick into hex barriers when it's not their turn. Hex barriers selectively exist: they don't exist for non-garrison units on their turn. The WORLD RUNS IN TURNS. There's a bazillion basic laws of Erfworld that are fundamentally completely different from how anything works on Earth to the point to say that it's a real stretch to say Earth science would work there. Heck, who is to say Sulpher or Saltpeter even exist? How do we know Charcoal won't de-pop as "burned wood" at the end of a turn?
So there are force fields, a little time magic and stuff can be made from thin air? Thats kind of standard for a lot of fantasty settings. Its possible that erf is lacking in certain resources, but we have no real reason to think that.

And I'm pretty sure that terrain can be altered by force. Its how the entire magic kingdom was built.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby John Thacker » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:05 pm

Lamech wrote:In every fantasy setting I have ever read about the basic assumption is physics still works when magic isn't around. Just because a wizard can cast fireball, or people can firebend, or walls of force appear, doesn't mean that standard physics doesn't work at other times.


Frankly, I'm shocked at your casual admission that you've never read, among others, Roger Zelazny's The Chronicles of Amber series. Or, indeed, any sort of fantasy series that features things impossible with "standard physics," such as giant insects. In the Amber series, nearly all those things you listed are indeed the same as earth in Amber (and its nearby Shadows), but gunpowder doesn't ignite.

You're describing one particular form of fantasy for which it is true, but it's hardly true of the genre as a whole, particularly if you consider the sort of speculative fiction that blends science fiction with fantasy.

That's even aside from the other philosophical problem that sufficiently predictable magic is indistinguishable from physics.

It may be a reasonable assumption in some works to assume that any exceptions from our physics will be clearly mentioned, and to assume standard physics until told otherwise. However, that assumption is sorely tested the most in fantasy works that involve someone from our world (or one much like it) being transported into a fantasy world with different physical worlds, such as magic. In that case, assuming that "standard physics" works the same raises its own problems-- such as why the person from our world does not attempt to recreate our technology, a la the Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. That is why Zelazny's Amber books required a statement to the effect that gunpowder simply did not ignite in Amber (and other physical laws were different.) Indeed, any sort of parallel universe situation inherently carries the idea that standard physics may be different.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby build6 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:33 pm

Lamech wrote:Parson has a working watch! Thats basic chemical reactions and electricity!


did he open up the watch and see that the parts are the same, i.e. do we know it didn't transform into something that looks the same but is different inside when he was brought into Erf, i.e. it now runs on magic and not electricity?

Lamech wrote:Gravity works. Fire works. Parson's watch works. Toliet paper works. Parson still works just fine. Complete with getting tired, and sore legs. And losing weight. Mirrors work. Crap still smells. I mean sure maybe all those things we have seen so far in erf just happens to mimic earth, or maybe earth's physics still underlies things, and wargame rules got layed over the top of that. It is a heck of a lot simpler. And even if all these thing Erf just somehow decides to mimic, why would it suddenly stop for gun powder? It mimics batteries, and electricty, and whatever the watch uses to light up.


Considering arrows will hang in midair at the hex boundary, I really wouldn't map elements from this world to erf. Or let's say you're right. It's possible to build, say, a gatling gun. But the rules for damage etc. don't depend on the physical properties, but instead on other variables, so the gatling gun that you build ends up being less effective as a weapon than a bow and arrow. I think it would be an error to consider erf "natural laws" to be some kind of superset of ours ("everything's sorta the same, but just with MORE magic!!").

Parson is stuck as a garrison unit. He cannot walk out past some invisible "boundary". If you can't even do that Iwould really wonder if you could sustain a chemical reaction the way its required. maybe gunpowder will just be completely inert there. maybe there'll be a loud bang but the bullet still won't move.

True it can't be tested unless Parson did know the chemical formulas etc. (was he a Trekkie? I'd have thought, if he was, as part of his exhaustive explorations of Erf mechanics with Sizemore etc. he'd have thought to try, since there was that episode where Kirk put together a primitive cannon... which I think Mythbusters also showed was not workable?), but I really wouldn't bank on it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Crisis21 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:41 pm

Remember everyone. Twolls have the fabrication special. Parson does not. Parson can try and get Twolls to fabricate all sorts of things provided they are simple and without moving parts (that's dollamancy from what I understand). Parson himself does not have the practical knowledge to create all sorts of machinery like the Yankee did. On the other hand, the Yankee would not have had nearly the time necessary during the Battle for Gobwin Knob to make the kinds of things he did for King Arthur. Seriously, what could you make in a week, even without a huge army knocking on your door? Yes, the Yankee curbstomped knights, but it took him time to make all of the things that were required for that. Time that GK did not have when Parson was summoned. They needed a strategist, not an inventor. Parson was a much better choice at that point than the Yankee.

Could Parson make things like gunpowder? Maybe, if he knows the formula and it works in Erfworld, but he would probably need Sizemore to do the particulars as Erfworld would likely classify that under dirtamancy, at the very least be some form of stuffamancy. Could he make things like trains or machines? Not without a dollamancer if I understand Erf-physics properly. Frankly, if GK gets a hold of Ace, the current dollamancer for Jetstone, I would be terrified of what he and Parson could dream up together, especially with Twolls fabricating parts. Add Sizemore into that mix and you've got an industrial revolution in the making Erfworld style.

Parson + Sizemore + Ace = Me running for the hills before we even get to the mention of Arkentools.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Krennson » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:13 pm

Lamech wrote:Gravity works. Fire works. Parson's watch works. Toliet paper works. Parson still works just fine. Complete with getting tired, and sore legs. And losing weight. Mirrors work. Crap still smells. I mean sure maybe all those things we have seen so far in erf just happens to mimic earth, or maybe earth's physics still underlies things, and wargame rules got layed over the top of that. It is a heck of a lot simpler. And even if all these thing Erf just somehow decides to mimic, why would it suddenly stop for gun powder? It mimics batteries, and electricty, and whatever the watch uses to light up.



Long list of basic physical properties and laws we know DON'T Work reliably, or at all, in erfworld.

1. Gravity. a 1-inch jump from air to ground, when it's not your turn, has roughly a one-third chance of killing you. A thousand-foot jump when it's not your turn has roughly a one-third chance of NOT killing you. In the real world, this is ridiculous. 1 inch falls should effectively never kill, and thousand-foot falls should effectively always kill.

2. Time. Even though gravity and velocity remain minimal, merely crossing hex boundaries can result in thousand-to-one time compression rates compared to an alternate hex observer. And time actually REVERSES itself if you return to the original hex, but WITHOUT violating causality.

3. Inertia. ANY inanimate object attempting to cross hex boundaries off-turn freezes in place, but apparently is not damaged in the proccess, and somehow RESUMES it's original velocity when its turn comes around. remarkably, this somehow discriminates based on which unit launched said object, according to whether or not THAT UNIT fired on its turn.

2. Human Nutrition. A human can live several days without water, and a week or longer without food. in erfworld, if a unit goes for a single day without rations, it dies instantly.

3. Cellular growth and reproduction. As nearly as we can tell, Hair doesn't grow, skin doesn't produce dandruff, fingernails don't get longer, and gametes transferred during sex never fertilize or create new life.

4. Ballistics. based on what we know of erfworld stats, if you set up two crossbows on a benchrest, anchored so that they each pointed EXACTLY at a prisoners head, and then had a level 10 and a level 1 crossbowman pull the trigger without moving the bow.... Whether or not their respective bolts hit the target, and how much damage they do on impact, is determined by random chance and the level of the bowman. In real life, if the weapons are anchored and zeroed, and the target is stationary, it doesn't matter WHO pulls the trigger.

5. Conservation of mass.
as unit creation has been described to us, they literally 'pop' out of nowhere. if you sealed the 'popping' area in a glass bottle, air pressure and mass would spontanously increase; it wouldn't be converted from one form to another.

6. Conservation of energy. caster's 'juice' comes from nowhere. unspent juice spontanously disappears. juice cannot normally be transferred between mages, nor it can it be stored for use on subsequent turns. juice that has been 'spent' by a mage inside a sealed glass container presumably does not result in an increase in heat inside the container, nor does it leave detectable trace of 'juiciness' in the air.


(end list)



Electromagnetism can be deduced not to work based on all the celluar biology that doesn't work, as those are chemical reactions based on the trading of electrons, etc.

Strong Nuclear Force, and weak nuclear force haven't been tested yet, but the only way TO test those would be for Parson to get his hands on fissile material or a particle accelerator, and that doesn't seem likely.

When two thirds of basic physics principles have been shown not to apply to a given fantasy world, it's pretty much a given that physics there is arbitrary or completely different, and any 'engine' (including 'guns') from our world is unlikely to function in the ways we expect.

By comparison, take, say, The belgariad series, by David eddings. In that fantasy world, it is clearly estabilished that using magic to do any useful work has roughly the same metabolic cost as doing it with your muscles. If you throw a rock to the west, an equal and opposite force throws YOU to the east. In the Belgariad, the CORE tenants of physics are shown as being roughly the same as ours, there are just additional magic 'engines' for interacting with the environment. in the Belgariad, a gatling gun probably WOULD work. But that is NOT a safe assumption for EVERY fantasy universe; only those few where text evidence supports basic-physics-as-we-know-it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:45 pm

1. Gravity. a 1-inch jump from air to ground, when it's not your turn, has roughly a one-third chance of killing you. A thousand-foot jump when it's not your turn has roughly a one-third chance of NOT killing you. In the real world, this is ridiculous. 1 inch falls should effectively never kill, and thousand-foot falls should effectively always kill.
Seems to work quite well. Arrows arc. Parson stays on the ground. I think you mean natural shockamancy has a chance of killing you. Its even called out by the characters as magic.

2. Time. Even though gravity and velocity remain minimal, merely crossing hex boundaries can result in thousand-to-one time compression rates compared to an alternate hex observer. And time actually REVERSES itself if you return to the original hex, but WITHOUT violating causality.
Works quite well inside a hex. Apperently the magic of erf distorts time. And no time does not reverse it-self in the least; the position of the "sun" changes. There are very large scale magicks at work, but

3. Inertia. ANY inanimate object attempting to cross hex boundaries off-turn freezes in place, but apparently is not damaged in the proccess, and somehow RESUMES it's original velocity when its turn comes around. remarkably, this somehow discriminates based on which unit launched said object, according to whether or not THAT UNIT fired on its turn.
Its a barrier; a forcefield. Hey a forcefield. They have those in starwars star treck, dresden files, harry potter, dragon age, and yet in none of those do physics not work.

2. Human Nutrition. A human can live several days without water, and a week or longer without food. in erfworld, if a unit goes for a single day without rations, it dies instantly.
Except your completely and totally wrong. It disbands if it does not get its upkeep. But as we can see when Wanda hands Jillian her rations (do I need to link it?) units are perfectly capable of going sometime with out their food.

3. Cellular growth and reproduction. As nearly as we can tell, Hair doesn't grow, skin doesn't produce dandruff, fingernails don't get longer, and gametes transferred during sex never fertilize or create new life.
Except Parson losing weight and his muscles getting sore strongly imply that all of his biological systems are still functioning normally. The results of hair growth, sex and the like would get wiped each turn.

4. Ballistics. based on what we know of erfworld stats, if you set up two crossbows on a benchrest, anchored so that they each pointed EXACTLY at a prisoners head, and then had a level 10 and a level 1 crossbowman pull the trigger without moving the bow.... Whether or not their respective bolts hit the target, and how much damage they do on impact, is determined by random chance and the level of the bowman. In real life, if the weapons are anchored and zeroed, and the target is stationary, it doesn't matter WHO pulls the trigger.
As far as we know every coup-de-grace has been an insta-kill. Nor do we know what all composes "attack". It could be any number of things such as strength, accuracy speed of reloading ect.

5. Conservation of mass.
as unit creation has been described to us, they literally 'pop' out of nowhere. if you sealed the 'popping' area in a glass bottle, air pressure and mass would spontanously increase; it wouldn't be converted from one form to another.
Magic done by the magic "city sites" breaks the laws of physics? How not even remotly surprising. The popping is a special case even on erf.
6. Conservation of energy. caster's 'juice' comes from nowhere. unspent juice spontanously disappears. juice cannot normally be transferred between mages, nor it can it be stored for use on subsequent turns. juice that has been 'spent' by a mage inside a sealed glass container presumably does not result in an increase in heat inside the container, nor does it leave detectable trace of 'juiciness' in the air.
Magical energy doesn't follow the laws of physics. Its MAGIC. Do we say that in Harry Potter the laws of physic must not hold because of magic? No we say they hold everywhere magic is not in effect.
Electromagnetism can be deduced not to work based on all the celluar biology that doesn't work, as those are chemical reactions based on the trading of electrons, etc.
Except it clearly does work as Parson's watch is still working. As is Parson. Who apperently is functioning completely fine and not falling over dead as his body disolves. Nor has he been erfified as he has to deal with sore legs and getting tired by doing to much walking.

By comparison, take, say, The belgariad series, by David eddings. In that fantasy world, it is clearly estabilished that using magic to do any useful work has roughly the same metabolic cost as doing it with your muscles. If you throw a rock to the west, an equal and opposite force throws YOU to the east. In the Belgariad, the CORE tenants of physics are shown as being roughly the same as ours, there are just additional magic 'engines' for interacting with the environment. in the Belgariad, a gatling gun probably WOULD work. But that is NOT a safe assumption for EVERY fantasy universe; only those few where text evidence supports basic-physics-as-we-know-it.
Except physics does work as evidenced by Parson and his watch. A far more complex piece of equitment is working than any gattling gun. As far as I can tell pretty much everything can be explained by dropping a wargame over a normal earth like world.

build6 wrote:
Lamech wrote:Parson has a working watch! Thats basic chemical reactions and electricity!


did he open up the watch and see that the parts are the same, i.e. do we know it didn't transform into something that looks the same but is different inside when he was brought into Erf, i.e. it now runs on magic and not electricity?
Yeah not buying this. The vastly simpler explanation is that it runs just like it always did.


And yes the yankee probably wouldn't have had all the time in the world to invent stuff. Maybe he could have used fabrication and dirtamancy to build his weapons in time. Maybe not. But if he still came up with "link our three casters and fire" he would have dusted the coalition all the same.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Krennson » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:55 pm

Works of fantasy / Sci-fi where the laws of physics as we know them simply DON'T EXIST.

Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle - alternate history. everything ancient greek and chinese philosphers proposed about physics is LITERALLY true. among other things, inertia doesn't exist, and the Earth really IS the center of the universe.

Sail On! Sail On! by Philip José Farmer. The earth is flat. objects of different weights drop at different velocities. rules of physics are completely different.

Inne pieśni by Jacek Dukaj. The atomic elements, protons, neutrons, etc, simply do not exist. all matter is comprised of combinations of five basic elements. Nature is teleological and has a purpose.

The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny. Rules of physics change based on your distance from from either pole of a broad range of multi-verses. Guns and internal combustion engines only work in a certain 'range' of multi-verses; other forms of technology which definitly wouldn't work on earth DOES work in various ranges elsewhere in the multiverse.

Erfwold by Rob Balder. The universe is literally a giant wargame. All earthly rules of physics have been replaced by simplistic 'models' of those rules, which produces a great many areas where an earth native can SEE where the model breaks down, or has unintended consequences. Guns would be one of these areas. either they don't work, or they work in a very different manner from what you might expect.

A duel in the somme, by ben bova and Rob Balder.

TOBIAS is a virtual-reality simulation of World War I, based on exhaustive modeling of newtonian physics as they apply to the common infantryman and artillery unit. One of the main themes is that airplanes DON'T WORK in this world, because no one had gotten around to programing a model of complex airflows into the system yet. Even at the end of the story, if it's not programmed for, it doesn't work. Attempting to build a nuclear weapon within TOBIAS will fail completely, because TOBIAS wasn't programmed to model ANY of the laws of nuclear fission; it wasn't relevant to WWI. If you want nukes, you have to hire a programmer FIRST.

Erfworld is similiar to TOBIAS that way; since the original programmers left erfworld after they were done, and we don't have any reason to believe that they specifically modeled man-portable high-pressure contained chemical reactions.... Guns probably don't work on erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Crisis21 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Lamech wrote:And yes the yankee probably wouldn't have had all the time in the world to invent stuff. Maybe he could have used fabrication and dirtamancy to build his weapons in time. Maybe not. But if he still came up with "link our three casters and fire" he would have dusted the coalition all the same.


Except that he wouldn't have come up with that. He'd likely be too busy trying to debunk Erfworld magic in favor of the physics he was familiar with. Parson was willing to learn the mechanics of Erfworld. Having myself read 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court' (Hello Central still cracks me up at times) I cannot see the Yankee taking the time to do that. Remember, he spent his time making the world he found himself in more like where he was from rather than adapting to it like Parson's been doing in Erfworld. The Yankee would have never considered something like Parson did with uncroaking the volcano.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:56 pm

I've been wondering, am I like totally blind or was our jetstone prince's look changing during the charlie talk? He was just suddenly wearing glasses and it sure looked like his coloring on shirt and stuff wasn't the same.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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