Book 2 – Page 41

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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby zbeeblebrox » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:24 pm

You guys are yammering on about all this unimportant stuff like plot and the rules of reality, but no one's figured out what the ring of exclamation points is a reference to yet?? Unacceptable!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:31 pm

teratorn wrote:Is there a popping cost?


At the very least, there's the opportunity cost of the income-generating archons he could pop instead of a warlord.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Oberon » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:11 am

build6 wrote:I'd have thought, if [Parson was a Trekkie] was, as part of his exhaustive explorations of Erf mechanics with Sizemore etc. he'd have thought to try, since there was that episode where Kirk put together a primitive cannon... which I think Mythbusters also showed was not workable?), but I really wouldn't bank on it.
Well, I'm pretty sure that the Mythbusters didn't have a diamond the size of my doubled fists to try to shoot out of the bamboo canon... But more seriously, Sizemore is a Dirtamancer. This gives him an unparalleled exposure to the formation of the nitrates necessary for the formulation of gunpowder. With Parson guiding him (should Parson remember the most interesting portions of his basic chemistry lessons), the path to a better explosive might be a short one. We already have the chemical traps in the tunnels as examples.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby build6 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:12 am

question -

in the decrypted Archon debrief (ha), Parson was told that there're heaps of defenses in Charlie's city. The question is why? If there's that many archons at hand, and Charlie's intel & battlefield/battlespace awareness is so good, why waste the shmuckers maintaining a permanent, non-revenue-generating defensive force of that level? Is it that Charlie is just paranoid, or has someone tried attacking Charlie before?

w.r.t. the why-no-CWL qn: what if Charlie doesn't have a chief warlord because he can't? would a barbarian caster (that theory sounds very plausible to me) running a side have limitations that a "normal" overlord/king wouldn't? Are there any known sides where a caster runs it? If not, why? Maybe the Arkendish gives a caster some but not all the trappings of being a ruler, if its attuned to a caster? This would have interesting ramifications for Wanda...

we also don't know if attunement to an arkentool is exclusive, right? For all we know Sizemore could attune with the Arkenhammer - you just wouldn't know because its not like Stanley will pass it around....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Oberon » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:13 am

ftl wrote:People can't see Parson's stats. They can tell his leadership score based on the bonus he gives to other units, but if he himself got a bonus that didn't apply to others, nobody would know.

Or, perhaps a unit equipping an item that gives combat bonuses isn't enough of a rarity to be specifically commented on. After all, many units use weapons of various sorts.
There is a reasonable amount of evidence which suggests that Warlord offensive value == Warlord leadership bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Squishalot » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:55 am

teratorn wrote:Is there a popping cost?


Many TBS games that I've played have a production cost, even those which also require an upkeep. Granted, the production cost is often lower than the city income, meaning that you'll always be able to continue production. But doing so would then constrain your upkeep in future.

Oberon wrote:There is a reasonable amount of evidence which suggests that Warlord offensive value == Warlord leadership bonus.


Base Warlord offensive value (or level, really) = Warlord leadership bonus. But if your offensive value is increased artificially due to some item, that typically wouldn't get passed on to your troops.

On the theory that Charlie is an attuned barbarian caster, it should be worth noting that:

a) Barbarian purse sizes are capped, meaning that he'd be unlikely to be capable of affording 600+ Archons on any given turn without a treasury;
b) Tramennis refers to Charlie as 'Overlord'; and
c) Most of Erfworld acknowledge Charlescomm as its own side, with its own turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby paint » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:21 am

zbeeblebrox wrote:You guys are yammering on about all this unimportant stuff like plot and the rules of reality, but no one's figured out what the ring of exclamation points is a reference to yet?? Unacceptable!

I'M WORKING on it !!!!!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Krennson » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:44 am

paint wrote:
zbeeblebrox wrote:You guys are yammering on about all this unimportant stuff like plot and the rules of reality, but no one's figured out what the ring of exclamation points is a reference to yet?? Unacceptable!

I'M WORKING on it !!!!!


it's a hippie flower. didn't i say that in the beginning of this thread?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby davesnothere » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:19 am

JustDoug wrote:Forget gunpowder. We don't even know if electromagnetic phenomena exist, let alone if there's such things as electrons or magnetism in Erf's fundamental makeup.


Well, Stanley's hammer "Van DeGraff" seems to indicate something like electric charge exists.

But seriously, :roll: In a world where we have Units such as: marshmallow Marbits and peep Gwiffons, Battle Teddy Bears and glass-like Tchotchkes. It's hard for me to feel that this world is solely based on hard science as we know it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby ftl » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:30 am

davesnothere wrote:Well, Stanley's hammer "Van DeGraff" seems to indicate something like electric charge exists.


Only tangentially. It was an attack with shiny lightning-like graphics, with a name that would be in our world evocative of electrical phenomena (like a Van de Graaff generator). The things portrayed didn't actually behave anything like lightning or electricity would.
Last edited by ftl on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby barawn » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:55 am

ftl wrote:
davesnothere wrote:Well, Stanley's hammer "Van DeGraff" seems to indicate something like electric charge exists.


Only tangentially. It was an attack with shiny lightning-like graphics, with a name that would be in our world evocative of electrical phenomena (like a Van DeGraff generator). The things portrayed didn't actually behave anything like lightning or electricity would.


nit: His last name is Van de Graaff. Two a's, and a space between "de" and "Graaff." I was really impressed when Rob got the spelling right.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby build6 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:11 pm

Oberon wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure that the Mythbusters didn't have a diamond the size of my doubled fists to try to shoot out of the bamboo canon... But more seriously, Sizemore is a Dirtamancer. This gives him an unparalleled exposure to the formation of the nitrates necessary for the formulation of gunpowder. With Parson guiding him (should Parson remember the most interesting portions of his basic chemistry lessons), the path to a better explosive might be a short one. We already have the chemical traps in the tunnels as examples.


heh, the episode I saw, the explosion fizzled - there was a puff and smoke, but no "propulsive force". So that diamond would've just sat there anyway :-)

I thought of those traps more as "magical" than "chemical". Do we know how they make metal in Erfworld? Do they need a fire to forge etc.? Or is fire just a kind of "attack" that's normal and comparable to what we have here for that purpose, but no more?

ftl wrote:Only tangentially. It was an attack with shiny lightning-like graphics, with a name that would be in our world evocative of electrical phenomena (like a Van DeGraff generator). The things portrayed didn't actually behave anything like lightning or electricity would.


that's my opinion too - all the stuff that look like what we have here, aren't.

Lamech is very excited by the watch as proof of the existence of electricity in Erf - alright, if it really is electricity and not new "magic", what if it applies only to the things that Parson brought with him, i.e. it's an artefact of the spell that summoned him? I mean, he cannot have all biochemical processes that work here but not generally in Erfworld fail the minute he comes over, or else he'll just disintegrate into a slushy pile on the floor. So the watch would be an aberration, not the norm.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Vreejack » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:36 pm

ftl wrote:
davesnothere wrote:Well, Stanley's hammer "Van DeGraff" seems to indicate something like electric charge exists.


Only tangentially. It was an attack with shiny lightning-like graphics, with a name that would be in our world evocative of electrical phenomena (like a Van de Graaff generator). The things portrayed didn't actually behave anything like lightning or electricity would.


Which brings us to the real question, and one we may actually be able to answer: are these game mechanics we have been seeing the result of pre-programmed special cases, or the natural operation of some underlying rules of physics. I am inclined towards the latter, simply because it makes the world a whole lot more interesting for everyone in that it permits things to occur that the original creators did not even imagine at the time, i.e., emergent phenomenon.

Two reasons for not including a freely acting physics engine like this are 1) It's hard to program, and 2) it's impossible to balance, but as we have seen lately, balance was not something the Titans were overly concerned with. Since Erfworld is interesting and unbalanced, an open physics system seems to be in operation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:28 pm

build6 wrote:
Oberon wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure that the Mythbusters didn't have a diamond the size of my doubled fists to try to shoot out of the bamboo canon... But more seriously, Sizemore is a Dirtamancer. This gives him an unparalleled exposure to the formation of the nitrates necessary for the formulation of gunpowder. With Parson guiding him (should Parson remember the most interesting portions of his basic chemistry lessons), the path to a better explosive might be a short one. We already have the chemical traps in the tunnels as examples.


heh, the episode I saw, the explosion fizzled - there was a puff and smoke, but no "propulsive force". So that diamond would've just sat there anyway :-)


I was kind of disappointed in that Mythbusters episode. That's because i was disappointed in the Star Trek Episode. The original story was so much cooler, with the blue sand and the human trying to time how long he could knock himself out. That's what i wanted to see the Mythbusters test.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby build6 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:03 pm

Oberon wrote:We already have the chemical traps in the tunnels as examples.


if the traps were chemical and not magical, then there's no necessity that it had to be Sizemore who activated them? (I'm thinking of that set-them-all-on-fire attack, were there others?)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Lamech » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:52 pm

build6 wrote:if the traps were chemical and not magical, then there's no necessity that it had to be Sizemore who activated them? (I'm thinking of that set-them-all-on-fire attack, were there others?)
For at least two of the traps in the tunnels (the rest seem to have been mostely magical collaspes.) it looks like they are fairly mundane.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0120.html
It appears that we have a posion gas trap and a flame trap. The gas trap at least was not fired by Sizemore. I also suspect the fire trap was also not set off by Sizemore.

I suppose it is also possible the redox triggered a fire, but either way at least one of the traps was not fired off by Sizemore. And both of those traps would be readily explainable by real world physics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby teratorn » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:12 pm

My guess is that anything made by someone who doesn't have the corresponding feat is treated as garbage at beginning of next turn and simply disappears.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Angband » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:31 pm

Kender Wizard wrote:There is another idea I've had for a LONG time that is kind of tenuous. Here it goes: Charlie is a barbarian caster who attuned to an arkentool. Charlescomm may not be an actual side.


Except that in book 1 they referred to Charlescomm troops and Transylvito troops as being sides, and as being different from barbarians.

Also, the wiki refers to Charlescomm as a separate side.

Nice idea, but not supported by canon, sorry.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby Vreejack » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:21 pm

While barbarians are different from sides in some ways, they are also similar. Similar enough, I think, to consider them "sides" for most purposes.

Do all barbarians take their turn at the same time or do they take them in some kind of order?
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 41

Postby John Thacker » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:26 pm

Angband wrote:
Kender Wizard wrote:There is another idea I've had for a LONG time that is kind of tenuous. Here it goes: Charlie is a barbarian caster who attuned to an arkentool. Charlescomm may not be an actual side.


Except that in book 1 they referred to Charlescomm troops and Transylvito troops as being sides, and as being different from barbarians.

Also, the wiki refers to Charlescomm as a separate side.


And perhaps even more definitively, the Stupid Meal was clear on this, and it has been a canon source of information on Erfworld facts.
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