Book 2 – Page 43

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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby HerbieRai » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:14 pm

I think Tramennis knows Charlie is lying at least partially. In panel 1, he says that Ansom was croaked in a false parley, but here

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-21.jpg

Tram knows Ansom is alive. A minus to Charlie's credibility there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby Whispri » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:20 pm

HerbieRai wrote:I think Tramennis knows Charlie is lying at least partially. In panel 1, he says that Ansom was croaked in a false parley, but here

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-21.jpg

Tram knows Ansom is alive. A minus to Charlie's credibility there.

I'd say the mysterious way in which some of his Archons upped and joined Wanda's counter-Crusade is rather more damning than that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby ftl » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:59 pm

HerbieRai wrote:I think Tramennis knows Charlie is lying at least partially. In panel 1, he says that Ansom was croaked in a false parley, but here

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-21.jpg

Tram knows Ansom is alive. A minus to Charlie's credibility there.


Yes, Ansom DID croak at a false parley. At the Battle for Gobwin Knob, back in book 1. Charlie is giving a dossier on Parson, and hence talking about all of the things that Parson did back in book 1. (Croaked Ansom in a false parley, did a tri-link, entered the magic kingdom, etc...)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby teratorn » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:50 pm

Direcoyote wrote:As for turning, it took Jillian several turns with Vanna to make Duncan turn to Faq. All of her efforts to get Wanda and Jack to turn were rebuffed. Getting something to turn is not easy. I have the feeling that the only reason Wanda turned to Stanley was that Banhammer had no chance of winning and that she may as well go through with what her plan brought.
Just goes to show there are mechanics you know, and mechanics you don't know.


More like: "the fate is strong in this one."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby asweethero » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:27 pm

HerbieRai wrote:I think Tramennis knows Charlie is lying at least partially. In panel 1, he says that Ansom was croaked in a false parley, but here

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-21.jpg

Tram knows Ansom is alive. A minus to Charlie's credibility there.



tram doesn't think charlie is outright lying he thinks he is withholding critical pieces of information (which for the record is FAR more effective than a lie ever will be even in real life) and tram knows its in charlies nature to manipulate others into doing what he wants. also the whole royal coalition was warned by Queen BEA when she wrote her letter to TV about how decrypted work and knows ansom to be such. personally i think ( dons tin cap) ansom will turn to dust if he were to be turned as decrypted are in essence very powerful undead and are bound to wanda and it is their link to her that keeps them ticking. should that connection be broken they will no longer have that which holds them to this world. or i think the same mechanic will apply to uncroacked and decrypted if the croakamancer croaks. (which i have no idea what that is)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby Guppy » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:53 pm

asweethero wrote:Mental midget that throws temper tantrums.


You know, even though we make fun of him, I don't think Stanley is actually all that dumb. Looking back at Parson's summoning, Stanley says, "And don't screw up the basics, either. He's gotta speak Language. Breath the air and things". To consider such subtle points -- that the summoned warlord could conceivably be of such an alien biology that he doesn't even breath their air -- would suggest a there's a lot more going on inside Stanley's head than his outward appearance and behavior seems to convey.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby Oberon » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:06 pm

Almaseti wrote:I also wonder how off-balance Charlie is. I recall the summer update(talking about talking) where Charlie is fuming and threatening and trying to be scary, but Parson's all "woo, toilet paper! finally!" It seemed like Parson was getting under his skin, but we can't really be sure with Charlie, can we?

Guppy wrote:That was an interesting segment, where Parson's attitude towards Charlie totally changed from friendly to yeah, whatever. I assumed it was because Parson had finally spoken with the decrypted Archons -- learning how badly his Archons were abused for profit (while being mentally conditioned to love Charlie), and how Charlie stirred up wars for business -- and come to the conclusion that Charlie was a scumbag. I figure part of Charlie's freak-out is the fact that Parson knows all of these dirty-secrets.
I took that to be Parson being Parson. He knows that Charlie is a smart guy and can pick up valuable intel during a conversation. So if Parson keeps his at the level of "Check out my new Twoll fabrication discovery! TP, woot!", or "Yeah, whatever," then Parson keeps his end of the conversation from being valuable to Charlie while he allows Charlie to fill the other end of the conversation with potentially valuable intel. Which Charlie managed to do. :)

Parson never thought of Charlie as a friend. Only as a potential "out" in TBfGK, and one which Parson played as best he could, to the point where Charlie ended turn and lost 80ish Archons, Parson, the Arkenpliers, and any potential split of the GK treasury. Well played, indeed.

atalex wrote:Parson expressly notes that no one has any idea what will happen if Slately dies while his heir is a Decrypted. He speculated that the side might fall or possibly even convert.
While true, decryption is pretty much like uncroaking. Just better. And we do know what happens when your king is uncroaked and sent against you, because Wanda did just that in the fall of FAQ. It is a huge hit to morale, and may cause nigh immediate surrender.

fractal wrote:Conversely, we know that whatever their numbers of cities and units may be, at least three of the members of the RCCII are almost broke. Jetstone is down to harvesting military units, Faq is only paying upkeep thanks to outside support, and Transylvito has been burdened sufficiently by supporting Faq that it has lost large amounts of territory. These sides don't seem well set-up to win the long game, so unless the other coalition members are in great shape and willing to bear the brunt of a war...
Very clear analysis. My only insertions would be to your points on GK's strength, which I snipped for brevity. Stanley is a tool. Lower case. I'd not be surprised if he fails to do what he should do: Go tame dwagons each turn. But even if he does, there are at least 20ish dwagons being utilized as rather useless relays to cart Ansom back and forth to give Stanley the opportunity to speak face to face with his (ex)CWL. And perhaps double that number, to provide an ample enough number for the far more useful task of carting Sizemore over to newly captured cities and then back to GK after he has rebuilt them. That amount of strength, concentrated in Wanda's forces, might have made all the difference in the supposed balance of strength between Wanda's forces and Jetstone. And the time to coalesce that strength was immediately before the "decapitation strike." A smart CWL would have done so, as sending all your forces into a tough battle is far preferable than leaving some behind in a (temporarily) useless shuttle role. There is more than enough time to reestablish the relay after you've destroyed the capitol city of the head of the coalition forces.

joosy wrote:.. and when they traced the packet they found it was coming from 127.0.0.0!!! (Horror stories adapted for nerds)
And then the stupid, stacked (max stack, at that :lol: ), blond, bimbo sent a SYN-ACK! That's worse than separating, looking for the cat, failing to notice the missing knife from the cutting block, saying "Thank God this nightmare experience is all over now!", or (for the bad guys) soliloquizing instead of pulling the trigger!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby effataigus » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:42 pm

Aye, Stanley is pretty great for the story... even as a thorn in Parson's side.

Oberon wrote:But even if he does, there are at least 20ish dwagons being utilized as rather useless relays to cart Ansom back and forth to give Stanley the opportunity to speak face to face with his (ex)CWL. And perhaps double that number, to provide an ample enough number for the far more useful task of carting Sizemore over to newly captured cities and then back to GK after he has rebuilt them. That amount of strength, concentrated in Wanda's forces, might have made all the difference in the supposed balance of strength between Wanda's forces and Jetstone. And the time to coalesce that strength was immediately before the "decapitation strike." A smart CWL would have done so, as sending all your forces into a tough battle is far preferable than leaving some behind in a (temporarily) useless shuttle role.


While I agree that Stanley probably wouldn't have thought of it, are we sure Ansom didn't? The last time I can recall the relay being in effect for certain was http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png Since then they stopped expanding and "consolidated the side." I'm not sure exactly was meant by consolidation, but it would probably at least mean they wouldn't have to shuttle Sizemore around to rebuild conquered cities anymore. Also, Maggie's comment that JS is 6 turns away by dragon even if they were on turn suggests to me that they might not have the relay operational anymore. I definitely agree with your assessment that it would be the smart thing to do, and that's why I'm not sure Ansom or Wanda (at Parson's recommendation) didn't do it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby joosy » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:38 am

Guppy wrote:You know, even though we make fun of him, I don't think Stanley is actually all that dumb. Looking back at Parson's summoning, Stanley says, "And don't screw up the basics, either. He's gotta speak Language. Breath the air and things". To consider such subtle points -- that the summoned warlord could conceivably be of such an alien biology that he doesn't even breath their air -- would suggest a there's a lot more going on inside Stanley's head than his outward appearance and behavior seems to convey.


Stanley's problems stem from what has been labelled "The Peter Principle" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle. People rise to their own level of incompetence. Stanley was a lowly piker who advanced up the ranks and eventually became Overlord. He was popped knowing how to fight but not how to lead. He is learning, however.

One of the reasons why Jetstone was so adamant about stopping Stanley was mainly due to the threat of what Stanley represented to their own way of life. Imagine if the footsoldiers under your command got delusions of grandeur and dreamed that they might someday be an Overlord just like Piker Stanley. The bucking of the 'natural order' of Royalty could create a loss of duty, loyalty, etc. within the ranks.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby zilfallon » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:06 pm

I think Stanley isn't dumb, too. In DnD terms, he has a slightly-better-than avarage Intelligence score, but his Wisdom is damn low.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby asweethero » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:18 pm

joosy wrote:
Guppy wrote:You know, even though we make fun of him, I don't think Stanley is actually all that dumb. Looking back at Parson's summoning, Stanley says, "And don't screw up the basics, either. He's gotta speak Language. Breath the air and things". To consider such subtle points -- that the summoned warlord could conceivably be of such an alien biology that he doesn't even breath their air -- would suggest a there's a lot more going on inside Stanley's head than his outward appearance and behavior seems to convey.


Stanley's problems stem from what has been labelled "The Peter Principle" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle. People rise to their own level of incompetence. Stanley was a lowly piker who advanced up the ranks and eventually became Overlord. He was popped knowing how to fight but not how to lead. He is learning, however.

One of the reasons why Jetstone was so adamant about stopping Stanley was mainly due to the threat of what Stanley represented to their own way of life. Imagine if the footsoldiers under your command got delusions of grandeur and dreamed that they might someday be an Overlord just like Piker Stanley. The bucking of the 'natural order' of Royalty could create a loss of duty, loyalty, etc. within the ranks.



i like that peter principle but lets face it he is a mental midget the same analogy could be made about the AVERAGE person whom their parents yanked them from school in the 3rd grade. they may not have all the tools to do complicated activities (ie diplomacy, tactics, basic algebra) but they can put the pointy end in the other guy. now this individual gets rather lucky and finds one of the most powerful artifacts in the world. he has established himself even if with luck as above the rank and file so he is given some authority which is about as much as hey you guys put the pointy end in those guys. again not to mentally challenging especially when your folks are much more powerful than the enemies due to before mentioned artifact. now because of all this and some intrigue and a hint of regicide you become the leader of a nation. and all you have known is sticking people with the pointy end (figuratively speaking) because you have risen so high and gained so much power you become overconfident with your own abilities. and you MUST be extra smartified since you got so high on a 3rd grade education. and you are DESTINED to be the all powerful overload because lets face it zealotry has made idiots justify their actions in the name of god err i mean titans for ages now. in dnd terms int 8 wis 6

sorry got sidetracked on a train of thought that derailed and exploded into that monstrosity the whole original point of me posting was i noticed the cute baby dwagon heads mounted behind Slatley and i thought it was a nice touch Xin
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby fjolnir » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:43 pm

The thing is Stanley is VERY competent with leading troops and the like, his fight with TV proved it in the previous book, it's the day to day leadership of a city-state/nation like GK, especially since he probably doesn't know much more than what he's demonstrated to know (warlords help by inspecting cities, wars are fought, overlords set production, etc) and is certainly underprepared for any sort of diplomacy or anything similar...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby joosy » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:07 pm

There are no schools in Erfworld (that we have seen) other than the battlefield. There are no children.

All units are popped knowing what they need to know for their own purpose. It is a clearly defined caste system. Now, on the extremely rare occasion that they change their roles it is suggested that they change somewhat as well via natural signamancy. So far we have only been shown that in Jillian as she went from Heir to Queen but that could be an expected and anticipated change as part of the 'heir' special ability.

I don't believe Stanley has changed via Signamancy (natural or otherwise) as he came up the ranks. He was popped into this world with all of the tools that a Piker is supposed to know and do; anything else he has learned to do is not normal for him. He appears 'stupid' because anything other than being in battle is not innate to him.

Its one of the underlying themes that I believe that the author is laying out: That in a world where your entire life is determined from your first second of existence you can break free. A stark contrast to Wanda's believe that we are all slaves to fate/destiny.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby atalex » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:50 pm

joosy wrote:There are no schools in Erfworld (that we have seen) other than the battlefield. There are no children.

All units are popped knowing what they need to know for their own purpose. It is a clearly defined caste system. Now, on the extremely rare occasion that they change their roles it is suggested that they change somewhat as well via natural signamancy. So far we have only been shown that in Jillian as she went from Heir to Queen but that could be an expected and anticipated change as part of the 'heir' special ability.

I don't believe Stanley has changed via Signamancy (natural or otherwise) as he came up the ranks. He was popped into this world with all of the tools that a Piker is supposed to know and do; anything else he has learned to do is not normal for him. He appears 'stupid' because anything other than being in battle is not innate to him.

Its one of the underlying themes that I believe that the author is laying out: That in a world where your entire life is determined from your first second of existence you can break free. A stark contrast to Wanda's believe that we are all slaves to fate/destiny.


You know, this is a good point that bears repeating: in a sense, Stanley is actually a prodigy. Created by the Titans to be a piker, everything he knows about leadership and ruling may very well be completely self-taught.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:05 pm

joosy wrote:There are no schools in Erfworld (that we have seen) other than the battlefield.


There is practice, however. Wriggly practiced his stabbities. There is instruction. Remember "take it like a drill"?
There is speculation and intellectual interaction, there is sharing of knowledge and joint exploration. Sure those last are mostly found in Faq or the Magic Kingdom, but there's no indication that any erflings are incapable of learning new things. Of course the ability to learn is probably related to intenlligence, hence magicians are the most likely show it, then commanders, then regualr troops, then auxiliaries.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby fractal » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:47 pm

effataigus wrote:Aye, Stanley is pretty great for the story... even as a thorn in Parson's side.

Oberon wrote:But even if he does, there are at least 20ish dwagons being utilized as rather useless relays to cart Ansom back and forth to give Stanley the opportunity to speak face to face with his (ex)CWL. And perhaps double that number, to provide an ample enough number for the far more useful task of carting Sizemore over to newly captured cities and then back to GK after he has rebuilt them. That amount of strength, concentrated in Wanda's forces, might have made all the difference in the supposed balance of strength between Wanda's forces and Jetstone. And the time to coalesce that strength was immediately before the "decapitation strike." A smart CWL would have done so, as sending all your forces into a tough battle is far preferable than leaving some behind in a (temporarily) useless shuttle role.

While I agree that Stanley probably wouldn't have thought of it, are we sure Ansom didn't? The last time I can recall the relay being in effect for certain was http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png Since then they stopped expanding and "consolidated the side." I'm not sure exactly was meant by consolidation, but it would probably at least mean they wouldn't have to shuttle Sizemore around to rebuild conquered cities anymore. Also, Maggie's comment that JS is 6 turns away by dragon even if they were on turn suggests to me that they might not have the relay operational anymore. I definitely agree with your assessment that it would be the smart thing to do, and that's why I'm not sure Ansom or Wanda (at Parson's recommendation) didn't do it.

Well, we know that most of the relay can't have been disassembled yet, because Ansom used it just the previous turn. Therefore, he must have left a dwagon in each city from which he took a dwagon, excepting Gobwin Knob. I think it's safe to assume that Stanley has a few spares in his capital.

Besides that, would it actually have been smart to bring more dwagons along? It seems like Ansom and Wanda had more than enough for their initial plan, and still sufficient for the backup plan after they learned about Jillian. Having an extra twenty dwagons wouldn't help them now that everything has gone wrong, either (well, it might, but only because of Parson's crazy plan, not according to the mechanics of normal warfare).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby Oberon » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:04 pm

zilfallon wrote:am i the only one who likes stanley? :D
I mean, i know he's an idiot, but i've felt so much hate here :P
I think that there is both more love for Stanley than you think, and less hate. I kinda like the guy, in a "*shudder* How is he going to hobble his Side this time?" sort of way. He has shown some glimpses of humanity, a recognition of his past errors in leadership / relationships, and an effort to improve on those faults. At the same time, he remains an arrogant, self-centered, bungling, colossal idiot! He is Gilligan, if Gilligan had a gun and was in complete charge on the Island.

Nice discussion these past few forum pages. Some comments:

On the remnants of Jetstone joining FAQ. Just not seeing it. Jillian hates Slately. And the remnants, in order to be remnants and not just depop, would need to include Slately or a non-existent heir. I think that if Slately showed up at FAQ with a rag-tag crew of refugees, Jillian would be able to provide her Warlords with a few opportunities to level.

asweethero wrote:i like that peter principle but lets face it he is a mental midget the same analogy could be made about the AVERAGE person whom their parents yanked them from school in the 3rd grade. they may not have all the tools to do complicated activities (ie diplomacy, tactics, basic algebra) but they can put the pointy end in the other guy. now this individual gets rather lucky and finds one of the most powerful artifacts in the world. he has established himself even if with luck as above the rank and file so he is given some authority which is about as much as hey you guys put the pointy end in those guys.
Ummm, not quite. Stanley was a piker, true. But he became a Warlord by ability, before any luck came into the picture. After finding the Arkenhammer he became CWL, and then Heir. Here you can call luck, but I have a story to tell about luck.

I worked for a man at one time. A man who had started out as an electronics repairman, and formed a company to do electronics repair. This business was successful. You don't make any money in a successful electronics repair shop, proper. You make it when you're out repairing electronics. So rather than have a store front sit empty save for the minimum wage hired help who makes you no money during the entire time he is not kept busy by customers asking to make more appointments to repair electronics, this man started renting movies out of his store front. The movie rentals grew until it surpassed the electronics repair aspect, and the man over time opened a chain of movie rental shops. This business was successful. He sold this business and went into computer sales and repair. This business was successful. He started offering a years worth of Internet access with each computer sold as an incentive. People started asking him to sell them Internet access without the computer sale. The Internet offering grew until it surpassed the computer sales aspect, and the man over time opened a regional ISP. This business was successful.

The man was a chain smoking, heavy drinking, womanizing individual. He had many detractors, even amongst his contractors and employees, who would cite this meeting or that at which he, drunk, would make outrageous demands of some potential backer and drive them away. Or they would attempt to detract from his many successes by calling it "luck." I heard many such stories.

And I laughed at these detractors. Perhaps he was foolish in this situation you described, I would say. Perhaps he missed an opportunity. But here is a man who has started four (4) successful businesses. When you do the same, I'd say, then you can call him foolish.

Sometimes, the foolish move to the ordinary man is a good move to the more able man. Driving off an investor with "outrageous, drunken demands"? To the layman it may have appeared as such. But had the investor acceded, this may have been a win. And perhaps to have acceded to the investor without making so-called "outrageous" demands may have been a loss. The ordinary man cannot make those assessments without having had the same record of successes, and the understanding of business to be able to judge these negotiations with the knowledge of all of the facts. It's like an ordinary man trying to judge a wine competition. They simply do not posses the perception to be able to call one wine superior to another, based upon anything other than personal preference. And if they try to judge a thing which they can not do themselves and may not fully understand themselves, then they are attempting to quantify a talent which they do not possess and also second guess it and find it lacking. This is just as valid a tactic as Monday morning quarterbacking.

Stanley is just as despicable to the average person. He has few redeeming qualities. And yet he once controlled a Side spanning 13 cities, and again controls a Side spanning many cities. He controls two of the four (4) known Arkentools. The viewer can fault him for many things, because he is not a perfect person. They can call him lucky, or credit his successes to Wanda, Parson, fate magic, or luck. But to second guess his actions is to second guess success. It's easy to look at a situation and claim "I could have done better were I in charge." But that is a claim with no basis for comparison, as the person in place at the time did what they did for reasons which may have been unknowable to any outside observer.

And, he gets to bang Wanda, tame dwagons, eat monstrous sammiches, and rock out whenever he likes. :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby teratorn » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:32 pm

joosy wrote:Stanley's problems stem from what has been labelled "The Peter Principle" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle. People rise to their own level of incompetence. Stanley was a lowly piker who advanced up the ranks and eventually became Overlord.


But then there is the Dilbert principle, that says that the Peter Principle just goes away as soon as morons get into management.

Oberon wrote:On the remnants of Jetstone joining FAQ. Just not seeing it. Jillian hates Slately. And the remnants, in order to be remnants and not just depop, would need to include Slately or a non-existent heir. I think that if Slately showed up at FAQ with a rag-tag crew of refugees, Jillian would be able to provide her Warlords with a few opportunities to level.


They wouldn't depop if they "turned" to Faq. Slately doesn't need to go, he'll just need to hold the city until Tram and the others have reached Jillian, then he can ask to have his body incinerated or something like that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby Nihila » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:40 am

teratorn wrote:They wouldn't depop if they "turned" to Faq. Slately doesn't need to go, he'll just need to hold the city until Tram and the others have reached Jillian, then he can ask to have his body incinerated or something like that.
And promptly disband due to lack of funds and a sudden influx o high-upkeep units?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 43

Postby teratorn » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:14 pm

Nihila wrote:And promptly disband due to lack of funds and a sudden influx o high-upkeep units?


Jillian is going to demolish two cities, she'll get enough funds.
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