Book 2 – Page 45

[oslecamo2]

You've seen "The Godfather" haven't you?

Sometimes protagonists lose their moral struggles and become the Bad Guy. And those are often more interesting stories.

Indeed that's what hapened to Hamster.

He wanted to escape inside a wargame even tough he knew that was wrong.

Stanley made that dream came true.

Hamster then realized the consequences of living on a wargame. People die so he can have his fights. And yet he acepted it, and keeps planning all kind of twisted strategies to win at all costs.

Nihila:If anyone can outsmart Charlie, it's Hamster. Heck, he's done that several times by now and is ready to pull a new one.

Also, between FAQ, Trammenis, Sizemore and the great Abbey we've seen four important characters that want peace at all costs.

[ftl]

Also, between FAQ, Trammenis, Sizemore and the great Abbey we've seen four important characters that want peace at all costs.

I think you're being too generous. Tramennis doesn't really "want peace at all costs". He does diplomacy because that's what he's good at and what he likes to do, but his philosophical goals of peace are tenuous at best - he uses diplomacy like a weapon, to further the goals of his side.

[mortissimus]

Not always. But most of the time. And given the setup and the moral struggles Parson has been facing, it seems like a pretty reasonable bet to me.

Does it?

Parson is directly and indirectly responsible for an extremely large number of deaths now, and odds are excellent he's about to increase that number drastically. He has been doing this on behalf of an aggressor hellbent on world domination with a nicely religious theme. He's even taking it clearly beyond the real of self-defence at this point.

History is not typically kind to people like that.

Unless they win and enough time passes. Like that fellow who took a job with a government religious zealots, hellbent on conquering as much as they could, invented a new way to find territories and proceeded to wipe up the natives with a rarely before seen efficiency. Following his way his successors wiped out several civilizations, killing millions. And Columbus day is celebrated every year, no?

[oslecamo2]

Unless they win and enough time passes. Like that fellow who took a job with a government religious zealots, hellbent on conquering as much as they could, invented a new way to find territories and proceeded to wipe up the natives with a rarely before seen efficiency. Following his way his successors wiped out several civilizations, killing millions. And Columbus day is celebrated every year, no?

Eerr, not really. Columbus may have killed some natives, but it was the later expeditions that went actualy inside the territorry wiping everything on their paths. And those weren't his sucessors, only people profiting from his findings.

Neither did he didn't invent navigation. Depending on what version you believe he either got very very lucky or he already knew what was there.

So we celebrate the day for either somebody very lucky or very smart, but we don't celebrate "Conquistador" day for all the people who then went inside the land do we?

On the other hand, all american governments celebrate having stomped the local populations and taken their lands, so you do have a point. Just how many western movies are out there?

[Sonic Screwdriver]

Parson didn't really deny a peaceful surrender. If Ansom won, then everyone on Parson's side would be executed and the five (maximum) survivors would be enslaved. As surrenders go, that's about as far from peaceful as you can get.

[mortissimus]

I was referring to the genocide Columbus started at Hispaniola.

On Columbus' second voyage, he began to require tribute from the Taínos in Hispaniola. According to Kirkpatrick Sale, each adult over 14 years of age was expected to deliver a hawks bell full of gold every three months, or when this was lacking, twenty five pounds of spun cotton. If this tribute was not observed, the Taínos had their hands cut off and were left to bleed to death.[22] These cruel practices gave way for many revolts and campaigns—some being successful, some not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%C3%ADno#Spaniards_and_Ta.C3.ADnos

But, yes, the US treatment of the native americans is a good example too.

[Hiai]

On the other hand, all american governments celebrate having stomped the local populations and taken their lands, so you do have a point.

Hmmm I seem to be missing all the parties that "all american governments" are throwing for "Stomp the Natives Day". They (I have no idea how many governments that translates to) must be pretty lousy. Maybe the media isn't covering them as it should?

Seriously, though, for as many tribes of hundreds that were wiped out by government troops or "settler" actions, there were a vast many more that died before ever "the white man" came into contact with them, due to the spread of European diseases from tribe to tribe. The Europeans had built up an immunity to many diseases, such as measles, that decimated the natives that spread it from their own tribe, which HAD contact with white settlers, to others that had not.

This leaves out the rumored "smallpox blankets" that supposedly were handed out by the military (there has only been one confirmed person doing that, and he was a private trader, not military) which would have been much later on in time, when there was a large push westward of Kentucky.

These images from "Western" movies, of the "cowboys vs. the indians" are merely the romanticized version told by Hollywood, based on the already wildly exaggerated pulp fiction pamphlets published in the eastern seaboard states during the day, targetted toward the city folk who knew nothing about real western life. Truth is, by the time of the California gold rush, wherein the largest westward expansion burst outward, the native population was already a small fraction of what it had been when the first Pilgrims landed, and certainly not from any concerted action by the U.S. government. Perhaps that's why it seemed so easy to marginalize and mistreat the few that were left. If the native population had proved resistance to European diseases, then the United States would have a far, far different face today, if it actually existed. Maybe it wouldn't have such a shameful stain on its national conscience, either.

In any case, comparing Parson to Christopher Columbus is erroneous and false no matter HOW you look at it. As is comparing Stanley to the U.S. government, although some seem to think it's a sly way of saying the U.S. is an "evil empire" (why bother, really? Most people just come out and say it if they believe it). Stanley didn't become aToolist, really, until Wanda influenced him. He was running around doing what his Royal boss Saline IV wanted, being such a kickass CWL that he was made Heir. The "wiping them out if they don't join us" idea was ALL Wanda, and that because she's a fanatic for Fate magic.

Truth is, if Jetstone and their allies hadn't been so adamantly mad that Stanley wasn't royal, things might never have come to this. Probably they would have, since Jetstone had the 'pliers and Wanda so easily manipulates Stanely, but it still needn't have gotten any further than the Erfworld usual standard of one side against another, if Jetstone hadn't kept upping the ante. Not to say that GK are innocents by any means, but to point out that there are really no "innocent natives" in this situation, so comparing any Erf situation to modern Earth geopolitical entities is a cop-out and not at all revealing or accurate.

[davesnothere]

...
Also even possible for Wanda to be killed, then Parson to rush out, grab the pliers and decrypt her.

Bzzt!
Only an atuned wielder of the Arkenpliers can decrypt. Ansom held the pliers for most of book 1 and did not manage that power.

Dave.

[Chris Goodwin]

Not always. But most of the time. And given the setup and the moral struggles Parson has been facing, it seems like a pretty reasonable bet to me.

Does it?

Parson is directly and indirectly responsible for an extremely large number of deaths now, and odds are excellent he's about to increase that number drastically. He has been doing this on behalf of an aggressor hellbent on world domination with a nicely religious theme. He's even taking it clearly beyond the real of self-defence at this point.

History is not typically kind to people like that.

"Following orders --"

He doesn't have any choice in the matter. What he does have a choice about is how. But when his Overlord orders him to do something he does it, whether he wants to or not. ("Slap yourself. Hard.")

He's a generally decent guy. Cares about the units under his command as people, and doesn't want to kill any more than necessary, not even the enemy. Notice that he didn't blow up GK's mountain until it was clear that there was no other option. Deciding that he wasn't going to order people to fight and die in a battle he himself isn't willing to do the same in? How evil is that?

It's possible to work for an evil regime, even in its military, even in a very high position in it, and not be evil per se. It's also possible to work for a fairly decent regime (etc.) and be rotten to the core.

[mhangman]

You guys really forget book 1? How can Parson be evil? He pulled out from his world by a spell. Which make him controlled under Stanlay and do what ever he said. He was not able to leave battle cause he knew a way so spell did not allow him to do. We should look his reactions after all the loses he got. Evil man dont be sad after his soldier died at battle, or died after breaking the link, or doesnt send his ruthless sword to the volcano! Does not be happy when he replaced does not be sad when he become CW again. If you telling us Parson is evil. I think you should read entire book 1... he dont even know that this world is real or not. First he thinks it was a game but after the loses he've seen that this is something real at least real for his friends.

[Tyr]

Parson can probably enter MK because the Mathmancy Bracer tricks out the portal into thinking he is a caster, thus guarding the portals wouldn't be considered because why would any capitol city guard against a single person threat.

As for the YouTube video ... I believe he is referencing himself from page Book 1 page 136 where he escapes into the portal.

[pSycHOtic chICkeN]

Argh, this seems to be going on a lot of unproven assumptions. He's assuming that he can use another side's portal, most notably. That's not proven, is it? Given how unguarded the portals we've seen so far seem to be, that doesn't seem likely as a normally available opportunity to the unit of an enemy side. Also, as I've stated before, this seems like a short-sighted move with regard to relations with the Magic Kingdom. I hope I end up dazzled with his brilliance, but right now I'm just baffled.

Do we know that Parson plans to remain a Gobwin Knob unit? The tool has not given Parson a lot of motive to remain loyal. Wanda and Jack can switch sides again. The dwagons should be loyal to stanley but they are all going to be within range of the archers and will be serving as a screen.

[Oberon]

Other SIdes, after they figure things out and think about the ramifications for a while may indeed decide that risking their casters on an offensive strike might be worthwhile. But I highly doubt it.

That's assuming that someone can discover Hamster's plan.
[snippage]
Absurd conclusion:
-GK has a warlord that can travel trough the magic kingdom. Lulwhot?

I agree with your logic, but I feel that in a setting with magic that anything can be discovered with enough effort. Parson himself could (should be able to, I guess, since there is some disagreement over the capability of he and the bracer being able to do what I am suggesting) calculate enough odds to determine the answer to any given question. Predictamancers may have already seen Parson do what he intends, the MK has at least a dozen casters who have seen Parson in the MK, Charlie knows somehow, and has told Tram and Slately, etc. I don't think the truth will be widely known fast, but I think that it will eventually be known by anyone who cares to inquire.

They [the MK] may not go after his head, BUT they may deny him further acess to the MK. Wich means no more magic market. No extra scrolls, no hiring other kinds of mancers, no more extra training, wich would be kinda crippling.

Meh. Casters gain levels without going to the MK. And presumably Sides conduct wars without hiring casters or buying items. The MK seems to be a place which makes the strong stronger. Rich Sides can, for example, buy a scroll to summon the Perfect Warlord, or hire casters to add synergy to some goal. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that lack of access to the MK is crippling. It reduces options, yes. We've already seen this, as Wanda wanted to croak and decrypt Jack rather than spend a healing scroll since the MK has already cut off access to that resource. But that just makes a Side rely upon their own resources, which I hope would not be characterized as being "crippling."

My theory is that there are a set number of capitol sites in Erfworld. Only capitol cities can be built on those sites and only capitol sites can have Portals. Only active capitol sites (not razed) have active portals.

Interesting theory, although I'm not sure what you mean when you add the qualifier "active" to capitol sites and portals. Something to consider as to how it works within the theory would be the state of GK after the volcano. It was a L1 city after the "Tower down. Tunnels down. Wreck everything but the dungeon" ploy. And then, the volcano. Was GK still a city at that point? Or would that count as being razed? The portal survived the volcano, so if the city was razed, then portals can exist without a city. It's a shame we didn't see the rebuilding of FAQ, as that was a razed capitol site.

Also even possible for Wanda to be killed, then Parson to rush out, grab the pliers and decrypt her.

He would have to attune to do that. And I think that is unlikely.

Hamster proceeds to blow up a city slaughtering thousands on the process (both his and oponent troops), refusing a chance of peacefull surrender, lying, betraying and sacrificing his most loyal forces all the way with a single moment of hesitation at the end.

I agree with the rest of your post, but here there is a fine Erf tradition which must be pointed out: Had Parson accepted surrender, the RCC would have killed everyone but the casters, and maybe even them, due to the low loyalty a turned unit has. There is no such thing as a peaceful surrender on Erf. At best there is tribute paid to a stronger Side, followed by an uneasy relationship waiting for comeone to pull a Haggar. But an end to hostilities wasn't what Ansom was offering to Parson. The past few (dozen, it does tend to drag on a bit) strips have pointed out that parley is primarily used to mock the losers by offering ridiculous terms, and then attacking with the supposed moral high ground of the enemy having refused to accept those terms. Parson having Ansom assassinated during parley was a fine way of throwing that farce back in the faces of the supposed victors.

[joosy]

My theory is that there are a set number of capitol sites in Erfworld. Only capitol cities can be built on those sites and only capitol sites can have Portals. Only active capitol sites (not razed) have active portals.

Interesting theory, although I'm not sure what you mean when you add the qualifier "active" to capitol sites and portals. Something to consider as to how it works within the theory would be the state of GK after the volcano. It was a L1 city after the "Tower down. Tunnels down. Wreck everything but the dungeon" ploy. And then, the volcano. Was GK still a city at that point? Or would that count as being razed? The portal survived the volcano, so if the city was razed, then portals can exist without a city. It's a shame we didn't see the rebuilding of FAQ, as that was a razed capitol site.

The city was destroyed, yes, but there were GK units still active (some decrypted a few golems) so it was still an active capitol site under GK control. If GK was razed Stanley would have gone barbarian I think. Of course it could be that portals could always stay active regardless and unless it is your or your employers portal casters never pay attention to it.

and what I mean for active capital sites are one with actual cities under control of a side. e.g. FAQ was razed but not claimed by Stanley (which razes (heh) the question as to why he didn't) so the Faq portal, under my theory, would have gone blank. On that note, I wonder what happened to Unaroyal's portal - it is now under GK's control. Does GK have to decide which capitol has the portal or do they contol two portals in portal park? If it is the latter what happened to Unaroyal's portal in portal park?

Lots of questions, yes and they probably will never be addressed as it may not be pertinent to the story.

[paint]

ok the more i look at this page the more the one panel with th cape eirks me .. it has no real point it doesn't for the story and it isn't funny..


we wasted a whole panel that could of been used for anything else .. even if it was just merging 2 panels and drawing more art for the last panel.

[Sieggy]

I think that when the battle is over, victory is declared when one side has prevailed, with all units on one side being dead or captured. As there were still GK units (golems and Vurp) still alive with all RCC forces having little x's for eyes when the turn ended, GK was by definition not defeated and the city could not be termed 'razed'. They won, Pyrrhicaly at best. Had Sizemore not brought gem deposits to the surface during the Zombicano Maneuver, GK would be an Lv1 shell of its former self . . . and Stanley one frustrated PO'ed little sucker.

[Oberon]

The city was destroyed, yes, but there were GK units still active (some decrypted a few golems) so it was still an active capitol site under GK control. If GK was razed Stanley would have gone barbarian I think. Of course it could be that portals could always stay active regardless and unless it is your or your employers portal casters never pay attention to it.

Ok, I'll buy that.

FAQ was razed but not claimed by Stanley (which razes (heh) the question as to why he didn't)

This has been explained as Stanley wanting a bolt hole to run too if GK fell. I find it odd, though. Remember how incredulous Caesar was that TV managed to overlook the FAQ cities? Jillian said that they saw TV units from time to time. Those same occasional encounters should have revealed the city sites to TV or some other Side eventually. Jack and the predictamancer were no longer around to keep them hidden, so they should have been spotted and claimed. And back to Stanley, expanding your Side by three cities, two standard and one a capital site, seems like a no-brainer as opposed to hoping that no one will find and claim them while you are studiously ignoring them. The only reason I can think of to leave them unclaimed is if they were geographically distant and it would have been more inconvenient to manage a split Side than they were worth. But they couldn't have been too distant, or Stanley would have no hope of reaching them before GK fell.

ok the more i look at this page the more the one panel with th cape eirks me .. it has no real point it doesn't for the story and it isn't funny..

we wasted a whole panel that could of been used for anything else .. even if it was just merging 2 panels and drawing more art for the last panel.

I was amused. Have you ever worn a cape? It requires some adjustment, as Parson's awkwardness demonstrated.

[oslecamo2]

I agree with your logic, but I feel that in a setting with magic that anything can be discovered with enough effort. Parson himself could (should be able to, I guess, since there is some disagreement over the capability of he and the bracer being able to do what I am suggesting) calculate enough odds to determine the answer to any given question. Predictamancers may have already seen Parson do what he intends, the MK has at least a dozen casters who have seen Parson in the MK, Charlie knows somehow, and has told Tram and Slately, etc. I don't think the truth will be widely known fast, but I think that it will eventually be known by anyone who cares to inquire.

And how many people will care to inquire? Charlie, and probably nobody else.

If we've learned anything about Erfworld it's that most sides are ignorant. Really ignorant. Wich is kinda understandable when they're too busy fighting each other with the ocasional diplomacy thrown in the middle to really have time for research anything. Neither Wanda or any other GK unit bothered to tell Hamster they had a stash of extra magic scrolls untill the coalition was knocking at their last door. Heck, nobody seems to be very sure how magic works!

Charlie can afford to be inquisitive when he has unlimited juice for communications. If Tramenis and Slatley escapes alive from this (a big IF), they won't exactly be in position to communicate with the MK. And I'm pretty sure the MK has some privacy politic about what happens inside there. Charlie has no real mancers to try to spy, and Don Vito is too busy using his to keep his side running smoothly.

This is, nobody yet discovered that Hamster was summoned from another world did they? Because only GK and TMK could know it, and neither has spilled their beans about that. So even Charlie's intelegence network has limits.

Meh. Casters gain levels without going to the MK. And presumably Sides conduct wars without hiring casters or buying items. The MK seems to be a place which makes the strong stronger. Rich Sides can, for example, buy a scroll to summon the Perfect Warlord, or hire casters to add synergy to some goal. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that lack of access to the MK is crippling. It reduces options, yes. We've already seen this, as Wanda wanted to croak and decrypt Jack rather than spend a healing scroll since the MK has already cut off access to that resource. But that just makes a Side rely upon their own resources, which I hope would not be characterized as being "crippling."

If next time one of the mancers is disabled they don't have a scroll to save them, and they end with one mancer less, I would call that pretty crippling. Options are very important. Stanley would be screwed if he hadn't got the perfect warlord scroll.

I agree with the rest of your post, but here there is a fine Erf tradition which must be pointed out: Had Parson accepted surrender, the RCC would have killed everyone but the casters, and maybe even them, due to the low loyalty a turned unit has. There is no such thing as a peaceful surrender on Erf. At best there is tribute paid to a stronger Side, followed by an uneasy relationship waiting for comeone to pull a Haggar. But an end to hostilities wasn't what Ansom was offering to Parson. The past few (dozen, it does tend to drag on a bit) strips have pointed out that parley is primarily used to mock the losers by offering ridiculous terms

To be honest, from that strip I got more of the idea that it's more of a situation of the winner adding insult to the inury. Diplomacy is meant for peacefull resoulitons, but that doesn't stop you from gloating at your oponent before delivering a finishing blow for your own amusement. Very common in wargames, watching a defenceless oponent wriggle and struggle. But sometimes they do come back and turn the tables.

And heck, Tramenis is indeed seeking an alliance in wich he would just want Wanda's head (perhaps he would be satisfied with just the pliers) and would let the rest go!

[Oberon]

Charlie can afford to be inquisitive when he has unlimited juice for communications. If Tramenis and Slatley escapes alive from this (a big IF), they won't exactly be in position to communicate with the MK. And I'm pretty sure the MK has some privacy politic about what happens inside there. Charlie has no real mancers to try to spy, and Don Vito is too busy using his to keep his side running smoothly.

If Charlie was really on top of things, he'd already have a working relationship with Tram, since Tram is a Prince diplomat who would be a rather natural point of contact for a person such as Charlie. Since he does not, we can conclude that Charlie's "unlimited juice for communications" does not equate to unlimited communications.

If next time one of the mancers is disabled they don't have a scroll to save them, and they end with one mancer less, I would call that pretty crippling. Options are very important. Stanley would be screwed if he hadn't got the perfect warlord scroll.

Options are important, true. But don't conclude that a Side without an option which includes purchasing MK resources makes that Side a cripple. A Side can and must get along just fine without MK resources if it puts its shmuckers to use for other purposes.

There is no such thing as a peaceful surrender on Erf.

To be honest, from that strip I got more of the idea that it's more of a situation of the winner adding insult to the inury.

My point exactly. The "winner" offers some outrageous terms which it knows will be refused, and then attacks with the supposed moral high ground of being able to claim that the other Side was unwilling to come to terms. This is what Ansom offered. There were no real terms offered, it was just "I will have your sword", with no promises to spare any of the GK forces.

[oslecamo2]

If Charlie was really on top of things, he'd already have a working relationship with Tram, since Tram is a Prince diplomat who would be a rather natural point of contact for a person such as Charlie. Since he does not, we can conclude that Charlie's "unlimited juice for communications" does not equate to unlimited communications.

Eerr, the decrypted archons explicitly said he can make an unlimited number of thinkgrams per turn.

You seem to be missing that Charlie is both arrogant and greedy. He tought that his turn-ending shenigans would be off to finish Wanda, so he didn't feel like going and treating Trams as an equal when he could wait for Jetstone to hire him again. But then Hamster pulls another master plan, wich Charlie intercepts, and wich forces him to make up some "archon credit" story to justify why he's giving Trams valuable intel for free.

Thinking you're on top of things is diferent than actualy being on top of things.

Remember GK? Charlie had a chance to capture Hamster. He knew his archons would win. He knew Hamster was going to pull something BIG if not stopped. But no, he wanted to squeeze as much profit out of the situation, and it cost him dearly.

Options are important, true. But don't conclude that a Side without an option which includes purchasing MK resources makes that Side a cripple. A Side can and must get along just fine without MK resources if it puts its shmuckers to use for other purposes.

Like what? Spamming tribal troops that have a considerable chance of turning against you? Promoting garrison troops to field units and leave your cities undefended? Paying tributes to stronger sides to live another turn? Fortifying your city wich is useless whitout the troops to defend it?

Would you not rather have a turnmancer to speed up your production of loyal units, a blastmancer to turn your city into a deathtrap, a hippiemancer to make diplomacy, a foolmancer to hide your stuff?

Magic in Erfworld is Hax. It can do all kind of nasty things. Cuting yourself from TMK means you're fighting with pointy sticks and whatever mancers you have while your oponent has acess to all fields of magic. It's not a situation you want to find yourself into.

My point exactly. The "winner" offers some outrageous terms which it knows will be refused, and then attacks with the supposed moral high ground of being able to claim that the other Side was unwilling to come to terms. This is what Ansom offered. There were no real terms offered, it was just "I will have your sword", with no promises to spare any of the GK forces.

Yet, earlier on the strip when Hamster contacted Ansom to provoke him, Ansom politely asked if he wanted to discuss the terms of his surrender. Then Hamster himself made Ansom enter RAGE mode with fae hints that there were traitors on the coalition.