Book 2 – Text Updates 036

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby falldowngoboom » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:26 am

I still say that the curving of the battlecrap is the game determining which unit the crap will hit. They fire blind, the game says, ok each unit in Y by Z area has a chance to be hit. It "rolls" for each unit. If a unit on the outside of the possible landing area gets "hit" then the crap moves accordingly. I feel this makes a lot more sense then air currents or gravity pools inside the atrium blowing/pulling a large falling pile of burning dwagon poo in such an extreme direction.

I do think that some Dwagons will be disguised as battlecrap, but it will be a process.

Also... Gobwin Knob has healers. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-03.jpg Look at the soldier over Jack. Little Medic Cross on the backpack.
Also... A hobgobwin in a tux?? http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-06.jpg he's in this pic too. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-29.png WHY IS HE IN A TUX!? He even has a bowtie!! There is another hobgobwin in a tux on a pink dwagon in this one. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-24.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby oslecamo2 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:27 am

Oberon wrote: Mark this post and quote it to mock me in the future once there is another volcano uncroaking. I'll be wrong, and the story will suck a little bit more for the destruction of the unique ending of Book 1. Either way I lose.

Deal!
Oberon wrote:First off, there is nothing to suggest that the casters have time to do anything other then enter a portal after they uncroak a volcano. That they can take any other action than that is just speculation. Secondly, it wasn't the GK turn when they did their cast. So even if your speculation is correct, it's only usefully correct when it is your turn.

Yes, that was the plan, using volcano-nuke in ofensive mode on an oponent's capital instead of defensive mode on your own capital.

Oberon wrote: Third, multi-hex trap. So even in the fringe case where you're right about actions and it is your turn, you've got to hope that your movement speed puts you outside a multi-hex radius before you all die.

Fair enough. But considering those things are fast enough to go hunting to the far mountains and return everyday, they're damn fast.

Oberon wrote:Forth, you're investing more and more into this... 3 casters, 3 high move mounts, and a warlord. Every additional resource increases your cost and lowers your chances of getting a good return on the investment.

Compared to three casters, three dwagons and a lv 1 warlordare basically free. Hamster didn't hesitate to sacrifice three high-level dwagons to lure Ansom in a risky goose chase.

Oberon wrote:And yet more resources. 3 casters, 3 fast mounts, a warlord, and infantry which will be left behind to die. Or are you now going to mount all of them on fast mounts?

Infantry is expendable. Their names shall be remembered.

Oberon wrote:I've already addressed both the supposition that mounted movement eliminates all risk, and the ever increasing resources you're throwing at this. Sooner or later you just can't afford it.

This isn't suposed to be a spammable cheap trick, but your ace in the hole to blow up big enemy concentrations of troops, like a fortified capital. I lose some infantry, they lose most of their army.

We're talking about killing thousands of oponents in one shot. Well worth some resources.

Oberon wrote:Stanley didn't leave because a tri-mancer casting party was coming to kill him. If you're not in the exact same position as Stanley when the need comes for the tri-mancer, you can't just assume that you're going to fly away before you get caught. There's no guarantee of advance notice, Jetstone thought they were going to bottle up the GK forces in an infantry and siege battle hexes away from Jetstone. And then the major part of their army was flown past and they were about to be ended.
And wich other sides could pull that off? Who else has both a massive fleet of dwagons and a master foolmancer to disguise them in order to lure the enemy defenses out of the capital?

Oberon wrote:You can roll all you want, I've still pointed out a Overlord led battle that you decided to qualify away for some unknown reason.

Because it was an ambush and desesperate retreat, not a battle. And it hapened before they did the volcano nuke, while I had asked if Stanley had any fight since the coalition got blown up.

Oberon wrote: While it wasn't an even exchange, things you're leaving out are that Stanley got Jack's sanity back and the GK side did kill at least one TV warlord. And headed back to GK, where he needed to go. So as I said, he didn't lose.

That would've hapened whitout the ambush. It was Hamster who fixed Jack and told him to get Stanley back on the city.

Oberon wrote:That is no basis for making a decision. The guy with the nukes might have plenty of reasons for being hesitant to use them. Many have been floated about in this thread alone. Only the fool would decide that a lack of "spamming" a spell meant that it couldn't or wouldn't be used at any time the owner felt it was really necessary. When your neighboring country has exploded a nuke, you don't attack it (um, as a national entity, and with conventional weapons or warfare, just to rule out the pedants) thinking that they are all out of nukes now. This simple fact has worked on our world for 65 years.


Israel was attacked by the surrounding arabic countries conventional armies some decades ago despite having nukes.

Also, in our world countries with actual nukes let their enemies know they have nukes.

In Erfworld, only Jillian knows Charlie has nukes. Everybody else saw the barbarian queen pull out the stunt, not Charlie. There's no dissuation factor whatsoever.

Plus Charlie waited untill the very last moment to use it, and worked hard to make sure nobody knew he was behind it. Why then? Why so much work to cover his fingertips when everybody would fear and respect him even more if he could time stop at-will?

Oberon wrote:
Yes...now that you wrote all fails by Wanda thanks to her love, we can say: Wanda did more damage to GK than Charlie did :D

Oberon wrote:But not more than....Stanley!

O'rrly?
-Who rescued GK after King Saline got killed? If not for Stanley, GK wouldn't be standing there at all.
-Who decided to make the initial tri-mancy link wich allowed Hamster unlimited intelegency and the talkbooks?
-Who requested all the specific conditions that made Hamster be summoned and not, let's say, somebody who couldn't speak english, or be able to breath Erfworld air?
-Who attuned to the arkenhammer wich provides control of the mighty dwagons?
-Who decided to pull back from the capital so Hamster could go all out against the overwhelming enemy? Someone like Ansom would've stayed, and then Hamster would be locked in a no-win situation where if he blew up the city he killed the ruler and lost anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Trotsky » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:28 am

Selexor wrote:Is it worth pointing out that I apologised several pages ago for derailing this thread and have since been doing my best to stay on-topic? :oops:


Considering "The 'Actually Quite Spicy' Bland Corporation" was included even though, if I remember correctly, he gave up the argument as futile during the first round (when it was still considered on topic, a novel concept) I think you're stuck.

Besides, I got the impression he was just selecting the people who make the longest, most detailed, and most passionate arguments in general, not just on a... particular subject.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Althernai » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:29 am

Foolamancer wrote:No, it's more like dwagons, Caster, Warlords, a promise of no future conflict with Jetstone (which is still a powerful side, even though it doesn't match Gobwin Knob), and hints of a future alliance in exchange for Jetstone. I'd say that's a pretty good trade. I mean, I'd take it.

It's a very reasonable offer assuming that the only alternative is the slaughter of all Gobwin Knob units in Jetstone's airspace and as far as Trammenis knows, this assumption is true. However, Parson knows better which is why he is not negotiating.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:40 am

Althernai wrote:
Foolamancer wrote:No, it's more like dwagons, Caster, Warlords, a promise of no future conflict with Jetstone (which is still a powerful side, even though it doesn't match Gobwin Knob), and hints of a future alliance in exchange for Jetstone. I'd say that's a pretty good trade. I mean, I'd take it.

It's a very reasonable offer assuming that the only alternative is the slaughter of all Gobwin Knob units in Jetstone's airspace and as far as Trammenis knows, this assumption is true. However, Parson knows better which is why he is not negotiating.


Exactly.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:53 am

trotsky wrote:Considering "The 'Actually Quite Spicy' Bland Corporation" was included even though, if I remember correctly, he gave up the argument as futile during the first round (when it was still considered on topic, a novel concept) I think you're stuck.

Besides, I got the impression he was just selecting the people who make the longest, most detailed, and most passionate arguments in general, not just on a... particular subject.

Ah, well. I'm definitely guilty, then. :P Still, there are worse things to be noticed for.


Re: Tramennis' Offer:
I actually kind of think both sides of the argument are valid here. On one hand, yes, it's a fantastic deal - Jetstone are convinced that all of the Gobwin Knob units are dust unless they surrender. Tramennis allowing a hefty force of Dwagons and living units, as well as a Master-Class Foolamancer, to return to Gobwin Knob is fantastically generous, as opposed to croaking and/or capturing them all. He obviously has no intention of letting Wanda or the Pliers escape, and Gobwin Knob would be foolish to expect him to offer that. This is a seriously generous offer, and it makes Jetstone get a powerful ally out of an otherwise deadly enemy. And honestly? I can see Parson, as Chief Warlord, accepting it if he didn't have a plan up his sleeve. Beats losing all the units, and Jack to boot. After all, Stanley can always order to break the alliance later and reclaim the Pliers by force.

The problem, unfortunately, is that Gobwin Knob wouldn't accept. The Pliers are, to every Uncroaked unit, a holy artifact. Wanda, as their attuned wielder, is literally the messiah of all the Decrypted. Tramennis' offer would be generous, but generosity doesn't count to religious fanatics who see things only in black-and-white, particularly if - and I mean no offence when I say this, but it's true - unlike many other militant religious fanatics, the Decrypted don't have to accept what they believe on blind faith. They know for a fact that they're right. They have quite literally been given a second life by the power of a Tool of the Titans. And since Stanley honestly believes that he's been chosen by the Titans to unite the Arkentools, agreeing to give up the Pliers and their attuned wielder goes against everything he believes. He'd never do it.
Even assuming that Stanley grudgingly accepted for the time being, or that Parson agreed without Stanley's permission, it doesn't solve things. Parson or Stanley could order Wanda to accept the surrender terms. But since it would involve her losing the Pliers, and almost certainly getting croaked, she wouldn't want to do it. And her Loyalty is... unpredictable, at best. Not to mention that we have no idea if Parson or Stanley possess the ability to actually command the Decrypted, or if their ultimate loyalty is to Wanda. Because if it is, and she doesn't want to give up the Pliers, then who knows what might happen?

It's a sticky problem, is what I'm saying.



falldowngoboom wrote:Also... A hobgobwin in a tux?? http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-06.jpg he's in this pic too. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-29.png WHY IS HE IN A TUX!? He even has a bowtie!! There is another hobgobwin in a tux on a pink dwagon in this one. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-24.jpg

Well, we know Wanda's current outfit is because she thought there might be Dance-Fighting. And costumes seem to help with that.
So maybe these Hobgobwins just have a penchant for ballroom dancing?
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:17 am

Selexor wrote:The problem, unfortunately, is that Gobwin Knob wouldn't accept. The Pliers are, to every Uncroaked unit, a holy artifact. Wanda, as their attuned wielder, is literally the messiah of all the Decrypted. Tramennis' offer would be generous, but generosity doesn't count to religious fanatics who see things only in black-and-white, particularly if - and I mean no offence when I say this, but it's true - unlike many other militant religious fanatics, the Decrypted don't have to accept what they believe on blind faith. They know for a fact that they're right. They have quite literally been given a second life by the power of a Tool of the Titans. And since Stanley honestly believes that he's been chosen by the Titans to unite the Arkentools, agreeing to give up the Pliers and their attuned wielder goes against everything he believes. He'd never do it.
Even assuming that Stanley grudgingly accepted for the time being, or that Parson agreed without Stanley's permission, it doesn't solve things. Parson or Stanley could order Wanda to accept the surrender terms. But since it would involve her losing the Pliers, and almost certainly getting croaked, she wouldn't want to do it. And her Loyalty is... unpredictable, at best. Not to mention that we have no idea if Parson or Stanley possess the ability to actually command the Decrypted, or if their ultimate loyalty is to Wanda. Because if it is, and she doesn't want to give up the Pliers, then who knows what might happen?

It's a sticky problem, is what I'm saying.


And I don't think anyone is disagreeing. It isn't a great offer if you possess all the relevant information. Trammenis doesn't. He thinks that it's a fantastic offer.

Trammenis thinks that he's giving Gobwin Knob a buttload of free units (some of which are extremely powerful) in addition to a ceasefire with overtones of future alliance. Gobwin Knob knows that it's going to keep those units anyway, and that it can't accept the offer in the first place on account of the Decrypted units.

Objectively, yes, it'd be a very bad idea for GK to accept Trammenis' offer. But Trammenis doesn't know that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:29 pm

As for the yellow dwagons' latest action...

Re-reading the comic, we can see that Jack has, through Parson, already provided us with a list of actions that can be used off-turn. And what happens in an airspace.

The most important bits of information that these give us are the actions that Parson might use as his "exploit":

Casters can also spend juice, doing most things casters do: make scrolls, items, golems, uncroak, turn Shmuckers to gems (or vice-versa but that doesn't cost juice), upgrade units, etc.
Spells are trickier. Most can't be cast unless there are enemy units in the same hex/city, but some like Lookamancy and Thinkagrams can be cast anytime.
Planning, communications, some forms of scouting, take-offs and landings of flyers (within the hex or a city you control) are all possible off-turn. You can lay some traps. You can re-stack all you want.


And this bit on falling:

When you fall, one of three things happens: you are injured (possibly only slightly), you are incapacitated (you croak in one turn if not given Healomancy), or you just croak. Height does seem to have some bearing on this, but it's essentially random. You can croak from like a three foot fall.


And the title of this issue: It's Raining Men.

I find it incredibly unlikely that there are crap golems in the dwagon crap; Sizemore has been in the Magic Kingdom, not enchanting golems for yellow dwagons to swallow. Rather, I think that this is Parson's train of thought:

- Yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off-turn, thus attacking units below.
- The majority of Jetstone's infantry units within the city are stationed in the Atrium.
- Wanda can decrypt units off-turn, if she is within the same zone of the city.

Thus:

- The yellow dwagons crap into the Atrium, destroying the roof and killing the units inside.
- Wanda and Jack head in through the newly-roofless roof of the Atrium, dismounting their dwagons and using their Healomancy scrolls to survive the fall.
- Wanda decrypts the units inside the Atrium and sends them up the tower to kill Slately. As the tower is full of archers rather than foot soldiers, it offers little defense.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby zilfallon » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:00 pm

1-Who rescued GK after King Saline got killed? If not for Stanley, GK wouldn't be standing there at all.
2-Who decided to make the initial tri-mancy link wich allowed Hamster unlimited intelegency and the talkbooks?
3-Who requested all the specific conditions that made Hamster be summoned and not, let's say, somebody who couldn't speak english, or be able to breath Erfworld air?
4-Who attuned to the arkenhammer wich provides control of the mighty dwagons?
5-Who decided to pull back from the capital so Hamster could go all out against the overwhelming enemy? Someone like Ansom would've stayed, and then Hamster would be locked in a no-win situation where if he blew up the city he killed the ruler and lost anyway.


1)Agreed, GK owns its existence to Stanley in the past.

2)That trimancy link was GK's biggest strength, but remember that it was Stanley himself who broke the link and caused Misty's death. (death of a lookamancer, probably a good one)

3)Yes well, he didn't skip details like "he has to breath and speak"

4) Have nothing to say :)

5) Stanley retreated from the capital so Hamster could go out? Now you're wrong about his intention here. That may be the result, but his intention was to leave all his side to death and go found a new faction somewhere else. He totally left them to death. If Stanley stayed in GK, Hamster wouldn't have to explode to volcano. Remember, Stanley is damn OP when it comes to action.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:21 pm

Foolamancer wrote:And I don't think anyone is disagreeing. It isn't a great offer if you possess all the relevant information. Trammenis doesn't. He thinks that it's a fantastic offer.

Trammenis thinks that he's giving Gobwin Knob a buttload of free units (some of which are extremely powerful) in addition to a ceasefire with overtones of future alliance. Gobwin Knob knows that it's going to keep those units anyway, and that it can't accept the offer in the first place on account of the Decrypted units.

Objectively, yes, it'd be a very bad idea for GK to accept Trammenis' offer. But Trammenis doesn't know that.


Welcome to the debate, Foolamancer. Thanks for a great summary. Selexor, just FYI, I am addressing the relatively narrow issue of Oberon's false dichotomy: that Tramennis must either be deliberately intending an insult, or stupid. I think most of the rest of us are in broad agreement that the issue is imperfect information.

Lamech, it is by no means a "gimme" that GK would still be able to go on and crush Jetstone assuming a complete victory here for Jetstone. I actually believe the text implies quite the contrary, that the battle is a turning point and that if GK is wiped out here, the tide swings in favor of the RCC2. Tramennis still foresees a long and bloody fight, however, with the outcome by no means assured. Hence, his idea to offer peace, which seems like a reasonable view and in fact (IMO) somewhat innovative within the context of Erfworld's "always war" mentality.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Trotsky » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:24 pm

zilfallon wrote:
1-Who rescued GK after King Saline got killed? If not for Stanley, GK wouldn't be standing there at all.
2-Who decided to make the initial tri-mancy link wich allowed Hamster unlimited intelegency and the talkbooks?
3-Who requested all the specific conditions that made Hamster be summoned and not, let's say, somebody who couldn't speak english, or be able to breath Erfworld air?
4-Who attuned to the arkenhammer wich provides control of the mighty dwagons?
5-Who decided to pull back from the capital so Hamster could go all out against the overwhelming enemy? Someone like Ansom would've stayed, and then Hamster would be locked in a no-win situation where if he blew up the city he killed the ruler and lost anyway.


5) Stanley retreated from the capital so Hamster could go out? Now you're wrong about his intention here. That may be the result, but his intention was to leave all his side to death and go found a new faction somewhere else. He totally left them to death. If Stanley stayed in GK, Hamster wouldn't have to explode to volcano. Remember, Stanley is damn OP when it comes to action.


Well, I don't think intention matters. I believe the discussion is about whether Wanda hurt her side more than Stanley did. Wanda never intended for Jillian to break her compulsion spell, but it happened and cost the side a fair amount. Stanley didn't intend to provide Parson the freedom to do what needed to be done to win, but that is what resulted, saving the side.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby zilfallon » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:04 pm

trotsky wrote:
zilfallon wrote:
1-Who rescued GK after King Saline got killed? If not for Stanley, GK wouldn't be standing there at all.
2-Who decided to make the initial tri-mancy link wich allowed Hamster unlimited intelegency and the talkbooks?
3-Who requested all the specific conditions that made Hamster be summoned and not, let's say, somebody who couldn't speak english, or be able to breath Erfworld air?
4-Who attuned to the arkenhammer wich provides control of the mighty dwagons?
5-Who decided to pull back from the capital so Hamster could go all out against the overwhelming enemy? Someone like Ansom would've stayed, and then Hamster would be locked in a no-win situation where if he blew up the city he killed the ruler and lost anyway.


5) Stanley retreated from the capital so Hamster could go out? Now you're wrong about his intention here. That may be the result, but his intention was to leave all his side to death and go found a new faction somewhere else. He totally left them to death. If Stanley stayed in GK, Hamster wouldn't have to explode to volcano. Remember, Stanley is damn OP when it comes to action.


Well, I don't think intention matters. I believe the discussion is about whether Wanda hurt her side more than Stanley did. Wanda never intended for Jillian to break her compulsion spell, but it happened and cost the side a fair amount. Stanley didn't intend to provide Parson the freedom to do what needed to be done to win, but that is what resulted, saving the side.


Oh, i totally agree to that. That's the logic i based my first line which said "Wanda hurt GK more than Charlie did" i just understood that you were talking about his intention when you said that Stanley retrated just so Hamster could go all out.

Edit:

I think the yellow dwagons didn't just crap:

In a city airspace they could just drop arrows or whatever, and yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off turn. Could be useful. I wanna talk to Sizemore about bombs. Maybe he can do portable Dirtamancy traps we could drop from dwagons.


Maybe Parson made Sizemore "implant" explosive Dirtamancy crap traps into yellow dwagons before the air force took off from GK? (This KLOG was written when Jack was at GK together with Hamster)

If their regular crap was strong enough to melt roofs and croak infantry, then how did Bogroll survive being crapped to? At the first pages, a yellow dwagon crapped on Bogroll, and Bogroll was able to "protect" himself with just an umbrella. So, unless that umbrella is tougher than a roof, yellow dwagons at Spacerock didn't just crap, they crapped Dirtamancy traps inside them!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:41 pm

effataigus wrote:Btw Dr. Pepper, what do the numbers in your Avatar and sig refer to?


Earlier versions of the Dr Pepper (note, no period) logo had the numbers arranged in a circle as on a clock. Those were the standard break times in a work day. The company was trying to push the idea of drinking their product instead of coffee. In fact, one of the lesser known features of the drink is that it supposedly is good hot, unlike other soft drinks.

So when i first started posting on computer bulletin boards, back before the internet, Dr Pepper was still considered the national drink of gamers and computer geeks. I would put the numbers there. Of course everything was fixed fonts so i could just use spaces. Can't now, so i have those dots in the text. As for the avatar, i made that from a photograph of a current Dr Pepper label, with some changes, and added the numbers as d20s.

And now. You know. The rest of the story.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:44 pm

zilfallon wrote:I think the yellow dwagons didn't just crap:

In a city airspace they could just drop arrows or whatever, and yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off turn. Could be useful. I wanna talk to Sizemore about bombs. Maybe he can do portable Dirtamancy traps we could drop from dwagons.


Maybe Parson made Sizemore "implant" explosive Dirtamancy crap traps into yellow dwagons before the air force took off from GK? (This KLOG was written when Jack was at GK together with Hamster)

If their regular crap was strong enough to melt roofs and croak infantry, then how did Bogroll survive being crapped to? At the first pages, a yellow dwagon crapped on Bogroll, and Bogroll was able to "protect" himself with just an umbrella. So, unless that umbrella is tougher than a roof, yellow dwagons at Spacerock didn't just crap, they crapped Dirtamancy traps inside them!


Ooh, I kind of like this. It would also explain why Duke Antium didn't address yellow dwagons as siege in his thought process from this text update!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Lamech » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:07 pm

Foolamancer wrote:
Lamech wrote:Saying he is offering dwagons a caster, and warlords "in exhange for peace", is really misleading. While Jetstone can kill those things, GK can kill Jetstone.

But Gobwin Knob would have to do so without many of its dwagons, in addition to being minus an Arkentool, a master-class Croakamancer and an equally skilled Foolamancer. While it would still be possible, it would be much more expensive than it would be otherwise. A mutual nonaggression treaty would allow Gobwin Knob to focus on fighting the rest of the Coalition while being safe from attack from Jetstone.

The rest of the coalition? What coalition? Haggar who was planning to betray them before they got stabbed in the back? Translovito who is being taken appart by its enemies? Jillian who just abandoned them? As far as I can see there is no coalition to aid Jetstone. Also Tram said "could", much the same as how Jetstone "can" defeat the dwagons. Which wasn't really a sure thing regardless.
Of course, it would put Jetstone on the outs with the rest of the Coalition. Not fighting against Gobwin Knob - and, arguably, actually assisting them - won't make the rest of the Coalition happy. But Trammenis has already made it clear that he considers Royalism v. 'Toolism to be obsolete. He could very well be planning to actually join Gobwin Knob, and simply be using this as the first step. Nonaggression, followed by trade agreements (assuming that Erfworld has such a thing), followed by an actual alliance. From Trammenis' point of view, he is actually giving Parson a genuinely good offer. Keep some of the most powerful units that you would otherwise lose, and you don't have to deal with us during the rest of your war. Oh, and we'll end up actually helping you in future, as well.

Killing someone's superweapon doesn't seem like a great way to say "We want to help". More like "We don't like you, but we like dying less." Any offer of possible alliance would be seen at best as "Hey lets go feast on the carcass of the rest of the RCC together!"
So its more like dwagons, caster and warlords for all of Jetstone. Thats not even close to an even trade for GK, especially when we consider that GK loses the Jetstone cities they still stand to take.
No, it's more like dwagons, Caster, Warlords, a promise of no future conflict with Jetstone (which is still a powerful side, even though it doesn't match Gobwin Knob), and hints of a future alliance in exchange for Jetstone. I'd say that's a pretty good trade. I mean, I'd take it.
"No future conflict with Jetstone", isn't something in GK favor unless they really want to go eat up the other weak sides like FAQ or Translovito right now. And if they wanted that they would have turned back at the bridge with a non-aggression treaty. They want Jetstone.
Last edited by Lamech on Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Trotsky » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:07 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
zilfallon wrote:I think the yellow dwagons didn't just crap:

In a city airspace they could just drop arrows or whatever, and yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off turn. Could be useful. I wanna talk to Sizemore about bombs. Maybe he can do portable Dirtamancy traps we could drop from dwagons.


Maybe Parson made Sizemore "implant" explosive Dirtamancy crap traps into yellow dwagons before the air force took off from GK? (This KLOG was written when Jack was at GK together with Hamster)

If their regular crap was strong enough to melt roofs and croak infantry, then how did Bogroll survive being crapped to? At the first pages, a yellow dwagon crapped on Bogroll, and Bogroll was able to "protect" himself with just an umbrella. So, unless that umbrella is tougher than a roof, yellow dwagons at Spacerock didn't just crap, they crapped Dirtamancy traps inside them!


Ooh, I kind of like this. It would also explain why Duke Antium didn't address yellow dwagons as siege in his thought process from this text update!


The problem is that Parson was not chief warlord at the time and had no interest in trying to influence battles directly. You might argue that he somehow got the traps classified as rations which can (if I recall correctly) be purchased off turn. It would then explain why Parlay was so important as you wouldn't want Jetstone to interrupt your yellow dragons swallowing. An arrow in the stomach is usually considered bad for the digestive tract.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:32 pm

zilfallon wrote:I think the yellow dwagons didn't just crap:

In a city airspace they could just drop arrows or whatever, and yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off turn. Could be useful. I wanna talk to Sizemore about bombs. Maybe he can do portable Dirtamancy traps we could drop from dwagons.


Maybe Parson made Sizemore "implant" explosive Dirtamancy crap traps into yellow dwagons before the air force took off from GK? (This KLOG was written when Jack was at GK together with Hamster)


That's true, but when did Sizemore leave for the Magic Kingdom? That's the important part.

If their regular crap was strong enough to melt roofs and croak infantry, then how did Bogroll survive being crapped to? At the first pages, a yellow dwagon crapped on Bogroll, and Bogroll was able to "protect" himself with just an umbrella. So, unless that umbrella is tougher than a roof, yellow dwagons at Spacerock didn't just crap, they crapped Dirtamancy traps inside them!


I don't think so. As we see in summer update #32:

The ground came up, and Banana squashed into it, face first. The impact was hard enough that Parson was thrown out of the saddle and rolled on the bricks twice. As he lay in a heap, the nearby pikers immediately scrambled to his aid.

The dwagon roared angrily, and took off into the sky, leaving a steaming pile of acidic battlecrap on the pavement.


So yellow dwagons' crap is naturally acidic, which would imply that it is fully capable of croaking infantry and acting as siege. It also implies that twolls are extremely tough units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:10 pm

Lamech wrote:
Foolamancer wrote:
Lamech wrote:Saying he is offering dwagons a caster, and warlords "in exhange for peace", is really misleading. While Jetstone can kill those things, GK can kill Jetstone.

But Gobwin Knob would have to do so without many of its dwagons, in addition to being minus an Arkentool, a master-class Croakamancer and an equally skilled Foolamancer. While it would still be possible, it would be much more expensive than it would be otherwise. A mutual nonaggression treaty would allow Gobwin Knob to focus on fighting the rest of the Coalition while being safe from attack from Jetstone.

The rest of the coalition? What coalition? Haggar who was planning to betray them before they got stabbed in the back? Translovito who is being taken appart by its enemies? Jillian who just abandoned them? As far as I can see there is no coalition to aid Jetstone.


I wasn't talking about the rest of the Coalition coming to aid Jetstone. I was talking about Gobwin Knob's future battles. Whether or not anyone cares to help Jetstone, Gobwin Knob will continue its war on the rest of the sides.

EDIT: And there are more members of the Royal Crown Coalition than Jetstone, Faq, Haggar and Transylvito.

Of course, it would put Jetstone on the outs with the rest of the Coalition. Not fighting against Gobwin Knob - and, arguably, actually assisting them - won't make the rest of the Coalition happy. But Trammenis has already made it clear that he considers Royalism v. 'Toolism to be obsolete. He could very well be planning to actually join Gobwin Knob, and simply be using this as the first step. Nonaggression, followed by trade agreements (assuming that Erfworld has such a thing), followed by an actual alliance. From Trammenis' point of view, he is actually giving Parson a genuinely good offer. Keep some of the most powerful units that you would otherwise lose, and you don't have to deal with us during the rest of your war. Oh, and we'll end up actually helping you in future, as well.

Killing someone's superweapon doesn't seem like a great way to say "We want to help". More like "We don't like you, but we like dying less."


I didn't say that it would. Note the bit of my post which said that Trammenis was likely using this as a possible start to future negotiations.

Any offer of possible alliance would be seen at best as "Hey lets go feast on the carcass of the rest of the RCC together!"


Now you appear to be talking about something else entirely. What are you saying here?

So its more like dwagons, caster and warlords for all of Jetstone. Thats not even close to an even trade for GK, especially when we consider that GK loses the Jetstone cities they still stand to take.
No, it's more like dwagons, Caster, Warlords, a promise of no future conflict with Jetstone (which is still a powerful side, even though it doesn't match Gobwin Knob), and hints of a future alliance in exchange for Jetstone. I'd say that's a pretty good trade. I mean, I'd take it.
"No future conflict with Jetstone", isn't something in GK favor unless they really want to go eat up the other weak sides like FAQ or Translovito right now. And if they wanted that they would have turned back at the bridge with a non-aggression treaty. They want Jetstone.


Which is irrelevant. Remember, Trammenis doesn't know that Gobwin Knob is still capable of taking Jetstone. He thinks that he has the upper hand, at least for the moment. "No future conflict with Jetstone" is actually a very nice deal if Gobwin Knob is greatly weakened. Trammenis thinks that it is.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Sieggy » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Bogroll was a Twoll, with regeneration as a special ability. Also, he was probably strong enough to survive the initial impact, and I can see the Hobgobwins (Vurp especially) laughing uproariously at him as they hosed him off. Since Parson did kind of foreshadow the notion or 'dirtamancy traps dropped by yellow Dwagons', I can see him having pre-loaded them with, I dunno, golem seeds, something like that . . . maybe carnivorous plants that magically grow in Dwagon crap . . .

As far as Trem's offer goes, it's a case of "we'll never know". Maybe if he and Parson got into a dickering contest (and my money would be on Parson having the bigger dicker), the outcome might have been amusing (as well as seeing both Slately and Stanley blowing up simultaneously for even greater lulz), but talkey time is over, it's stabbity time now.

My money would be on Parson coming through the Portal and encountering Janis (and perhaps the Predictamancer) in the course of his underground dash, whereupon Plotamancy ensues. He emerges into the Dungeon, finding it either un- or lightly defended (which would give Parson his first kills of the battle, who knows, maybe enough to level!), and fires the structure, trapping both the high level units and the archers on top, keeping them occupied with trying to survive as opposed to raining death on the enemy. The GKAF takes refuge inside the Atrium, uses whatever exploit is needed to get to the ground zone, and then proceeds to roll up the JS forces, who are now split (sort of like how the GK forces were) and being cooked alive (one group being roasted, the other marinaded to death), keeping with the food fight theme. Wanda decrypts en masse, Jack messes with everyone's heads, and hilarity breaks out everywhere.

It's anyone's guess as to who survives the fracas, though I think Slately is doomed (he's wearing a red robe . . .), and Trem will haul outta there with Ace's Jetpack. I certainly hope Ace survives, and Parson renames him 'Q'. (Bond, not ST:TNG) Between him and Sizemore, I see heavy artillery and Ikea furniture in the offing . . .

Then it's Key Lime Pie & Butterbeer for the survivors! Charlie and the Don will retire to change their shorts, and only Charlie will make it out of the changing room . . . Jillian won't care, as she has her old / new boytoy to keep her occupied until Caesar comes a-callin' to collect on their 'investment'. The rest of the RCC suddenly discovers something far more interesting to look at, and hopes they're not next on Stanley's Hit Parade. But that's another book . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby teratorn » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:38 pm

Well at least Tram was right in going after GK's army in the nearby hex, they have somewhere to flee. Might be the best choice if things go the wrong way, less decrypted for Wanda. Better to die from lack of rations.
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