Book 2 – Text Updates 036

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Lamech » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:47 pm

Foolamancer wrote:I wasn't talking about the rest of the Coalition coming to aid Jetstone. I was talking about Gobwin Knob's future battles. Whether or not anyone cares to help Jetstone, Gobwin Knob will continue its war on the rest of the sides.
Maybe they will, but despite the offer of peace on the bridge they wanted to kill Jetstone first regardless. Jetstone is first on the list of people they want to kill.
And there are more members of the Royal Crown Coalition than Jetstone, Faq, Haggar and Transylvito.
And they didn't even send troops, which I guess makes them slightly more reliable than Haggar, but still.
I didn't say that it would. Note the bit of my post which said that Trammenis was likely using this as a possible start to future negotiations.

Yeah see thats kind of what you said:
From Trammenis' point of view, he is actually giving Parson a genuinely good offer. Keep some of the most powerful units that you would otherwise lose, and you don't have to deal with us during the rest of your war. Oh, and we'll end up actually helping you in future, as well.

Now you appear to be talking about something else entirely. What are you saying here?
I was talking about the offer of future help you said Tram was giving.

Which is irrelevant. Remember, Trammenis doesn't know that Gobwin Knob is still capable of taking Jetstone. He thinks that he has the upper hand, at least for the moment. "No future conflict with Jetstone" is actually a very nice deal if Gobwin Knob is greatly weakened. Trammenis thinks that it is.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=/2010-10-09.jpg
Remember this page that you posted? In it Tram says that GK "could still eventually crush the coalition." GK is still powerful enough to crush Jetstone, and in fact the entirity of the "coalition". AND TRAM KNOWS IT. GK wants to take out Jetstone and I highly doubt this will change. Especially after Jetstone gets the arkenpliers. And they would still have the force to do it with out Wanda or those dwagons. "Peace with Jetstone" is in no way what GK wants. That isn't something that Jetstone is offering, its what they are asking for. So again we are too trading not-killing-dwagons+casters+warlord for not-killing-Jetstone. This isn't close to a balanced trade, especially since GK will gain from the Jetstone cities and possibly captured casters, if they make war not love.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:02 pm

trotsky wrote:
Selexor wrote:Is it worth pointing out that I apologised several pages ago for derailing this thread and have since been doing my best to stay on-topic? :oops:


Considering "The 'Actually Quite Spicy' Bland Corporation" was included even though, if I remember correctly, he gave up the argument as futile during the first round (when it was still considered on topic, a novel concept) I think you're stuck.

Besides, I got the impression he was just selecting the people who make the longest, most detailed, and most passionate arguments in general, not just on a... particular subject.


Pretty much, albeit biased a bit towards exchanges of the last few weeks.

Otherwise i would have included a certain dirtymancer, er, dirtamancer who's no longer around.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby oslecamo2 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:05 pm

zilfallon wrote:
trotsky wrote:
zilfallon wrote:
5) Stanley retreated from the capital so Hamster could go out? Now you're wrong about his intention here. That may be the result, but his intention was to leave all his side to death and go found a new faction somewhere else. He totally left them to death. If Stanley stayed in GK, Hamster wouldn't have to explode to volcano. Remember, Stanley is damn OP when it comes to action.


Well, I don't think intention matters. I believe the discussion is about whether Wanda hurt her side more than Stanley did. Wanda never intended for Jillian to break her compulsion spell, but it happened and cost the side a fair amount. Stanley didn't intend to provide Parson the freedom to do what needed to be done to win, but that is what resulted, saving the side.


Oh, i totally agree to that. That's the logic i based my first line which said "Wanda hurt GK more than Charlie did" i just understood that you were talking about his intention when you said that Stanley retrated just so Hamster could go all out.


And I wanted to point out that Stanley trusts his battle-hardened guts. He isn't a fancy noble, a diplomat or a scholar. Stanley was born a lowly infantry man and rised trough the ranks with his battle prowess and attunning to the arkenhammer.

When Stanley retreated, he didn't left the rest of his army to die. He left them to slow down the pursuing enemy as best as they could. Otherwise he would've gone forward with his menace of killing Hamster like some cliche villain "You've failed me for the last time, now you die!". Stanley knew Hamster would be more worth alive slowing down the incoming enemy than dead. That Hamster's last stand actualy wiped out the coalition was a critical sucess. Stanley did give Hamster free reign to do as he will on the face of imesurable odds intentionally, he just wasn't willing to bet his own life on it anymore. Even if Hamster died, if he took down enough coalition forces with him he would've served his purpose of covering Stanley's retreat untill he started a new side.

But now look at Wanda. She's a spoiled girl blessed with great natural talents that gave her an easy life. She's used to manipulating others and being on top. She did betray her original faction, leading to it's destruction, and it was Wanda who put Stanley on this whole Tool-Crusade to begin with in case you've forgoten. And then she still affords to commit basic thinkmancy errors that cost them dearly, like not turning the backslash into Jillian, something wich Maggie herself points out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:08 pm

Lamech wrote:Remember this page that you posted? In it Tram says that GK "could still eventually crush the coalition." GK is still powerful enough to crush Jetstone, and in fact the entirity of the "coalition". AND TRAM KNOWS IT. GK wants to take out Jetstone and I highly doubt this will change. Especially after Jetstone gets the arkenpliers. And they would still have the force to do it with out Wanda or those dwagons. "Peace with Jetstone" is in no way what GK wants. That isn't something that Jetstone is offering, its what they are asking for. So again we are too trading not-killing-dwagons+casters+warlord for not-killing-Jetstone. This isn't close to a balanced trade, especially since GK will gain from the Jetstone cities and possibly captured casters, if they make war not love.


Could is, quite explicitly by definition, a conditional word indicating possibility. Tramennis is speculating, but it is by no means a done deal; there are way too many variables for that. From Jetstone's POV, there is an entire world of other people to crush. Again, the issue is that from Tramennis' POV, it is entirely a good faith offer (and again, in a point too often ignored, it is entirely an opening offer). A million things could happen in the meantime, Stanley could croak just like Genghis Khan did in RL, upending the entire empire. GK and Jetstone could perhaps reach a true alliance and go after, say, Charlie, trying to liberate the third known arkentool and place it the hands of the alliance. GK could amass the million schmuckers (if they don't have it anyway) and go after Jetstone sooner than Jetstone imagined possible, thus providing further benefit to GK with the deal. Who knows? The point I'm attempting to illustrate is that there are a ton of variables, which neither side knows completely, and which both sides will attempt to use to their own benefit.

Regardless, however, what is clear is that Tramennis is not intending an insult, and thinks he is bargaining in good faith. Of course there are benefits to each side in any negotiation, and of course Tramennis is attempting to maximize those benefits for his side. Whether he would have succeded or not, is almost certainly going to be beyond the scope of this story.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:10 pm

Selexor wrote:
falldowngoboom wrote:Also... A hobgobwin in a tux?? http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-06.jpg he's in this pic too. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-29.png WHY IS HE IN A TUX!? He even has a bowtie!! There is another hobgobwin in a tux on a pink dwagon in this one. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-24.jpg

Well, we know Wanda's current outfit is because she thought there might be Dance-Fighting. And costumes seem to help with that.
So maybe these Hobgobwins just have a penchant for ballroom dancing?


Wanda thought there might be dance-fighting. So she dressed for the RHPS. So she needed her unconventional conventioneers. That's him.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:21 pm

Sieggy wrote:Bogroll was a Twoll, with regeneration as a special ability.


RETCONJURATION!


Bogroll was a Twoll, with fabrication as a special ability.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:50 pm

Foolamancer wrote:I find it incredibly unlikely that there are crap golems in the dwagon crap; Sizemore has been in the Magic Kingdom, not enchanting golems for yellow dwagons to swallow. Rather, I think that this is Parson's train of thought:

- Yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off-turn, thus attacking units below.
- The majority of Jetstone's infantry units within the city are stationed in the Atrium.
- Wanda can decrypt units off-turn, if she is within the same zone of the city.

Thus:

- The yellow dwagons crap into the Atrium, destroying the roof and killing the units inside.
- Wanda and Jack head in through the newly-roofless roof of the Atrium, dismounting their dwagons and using their Healomancy scrolls to survive the fall.
- Wanda decrypts the units inside the Atrium and sends them up the tower to kill Slately. As the tower is full of archers rather than foot soldiers, it offers little defense.


This, and also the "Crap Golems" theory. A few people have suggested it, and while it's good, I don't think it could work.
The problem with this is that the Atrium, which is Spacerock's equivalent of a Courtyard, is a different city zone than the Tower. Decrypted foot soldiers could no more enter the Tower from the ground than the dwagons could roast it from the Airspace. The exact same problem applies, as well, to the "Golems in the Battlecrap" theory - you could raise a thousand Crap Golems and destroy every Jetstone unit outside the Tower. But that's where the Leadership is, that's where the archers are, and that's the part you need to hit.
Plans that give Gobwin Knob more units inside Spacerock are all well and good, but problem is that Gobwin Knob doesn't need more units inside Spacerock. They have more than enough to win. No, the problem is that they can't cross City Zones to do anything with those units, and those units can't defend themselves in their current position. If Parson figures out an exploit that lets him cross City Zones, he doesn't need new units, he just has to tell the dwagons to attack.

I really see only two possible uses of this tactic that work at the moment:
1 - Now there are less melee units inside Spacerock that could discover and/or attack Parson when he enters via the Magic Portal.
2 - This is a fantastic distraction that will keep Tramennis and Slately occupied away from whatever Parson's doing... so long as they don't get angry enough to just open fire, which Parson is trying to stop them from doing.

Other things that stem from this tactic are possible, but at least at the moment, none of them will help the situation very much. So until we get more information, I don't think decrypting or golem-summoning is the plan.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby teratorn » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:07 pm

Selexor wrote:Other things that stem from this tactic are possible, but at least at the moment, none of them will help the situation very much. So until we get more information, I don't think decrypting or golem-summoning is the plan.


As soon as they are not in the airspace they avoid the tower defenses, those were the main problem. In the courtyard they can
easily wait for their turn to start. Assuming they didn't ruin most of the ceiling they are even immune from archers outside of the domed area. Next day with all the units they've decrypted and Parson they'll easily crush Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:22 pm

teratorn wrote:As soon as they are not in the airspace they avoid the tower defenses, those were the main problem. In the courtyard they can
easily wait for their turn to start. Assuming they didn't ruin most of the ceiling they are even immune from archers outside of the domed area. Next day with all the units they've decrypted and Parson they'll easily crush Jetstone.

Absolutely true, except that they'd still lose the air units. Jetstone aren't that foolish: once they saw what was happening, they'd wipe out all the dwagons instantly rather than stand there and look sad about how unsuccessful their parley is being. If Wanda croaks, leading theory suggests that the Decrypted will at the very least be incapacitated, if not outright dusted as soon as she falls. That leaves Parson in the Atrium, with nothing but golems at his back (even assuming that's what happens to the Crap), off-turn in the enemy's city, and with all other units that could support him destroyed. And remember, the Atrium is currently full of infantry... we don't know where Jetstone's heavies are, but we know they're somewhere, and they could be brought into the fight on a moment's notice. Jetstone won't end their turn until they're satisfied Gobwin Knob is beaten, so they wouldn't just let Gobwin Knob attack with a massive ground force from the Atrium.
It's still possible, but I doubt Parson would intentionally throw himself into a scenario like that. The guy has a trump card still to play, and he's explicitly said to Wanda that if his plan works, she's going to survive... so there's got to be something else.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:22 pm

Lamech wrote:
Foolamancer wrote:I wasn't talking about the rest of the Coalition coming to aid Jetstone. I was talking about Gobwin Knob's future battles. Whether or not anyone cares to help Jetstone, Gobwin Knob will continue its war on the rest of the sides.
Maybe they will, but despite the offer of peace on the bridge they wanted to kill Jetstone first regardless. Jetstone is first on the list of people they want to kill.


But from Trammenis' point of view, he is now in a position to change this. He believes that he has Parson's metaphorical grapefruits in a vise grip. He believes that he now possesses enough bargaining power to change Gobwin Knob's plans vis a vis destroying Jetstone.

And there are more members of the Royal Crown Coalition than Jetstone, Faq, Haggar and Transylvito.
And they didn't even send troops, which I guess makes them slightly more reliable than Haggar, but still.


Yes, still. Because Gobwin Knob is at war with the entire Coalition, not just those members of it who are currently participating in this battle. Trammenis is offering to remove one of Gobwin Knob's most powerful adversaries from the list, with the possibility of becoming an ally later. And that's on top of allowing him to keep some of his most powerful units - which would otherwise be croaked or captured - entirely gratis.

I didn't say that it would. Note the bit of my post which said that Trammenis was likely using this as a possible start to future negotiations.

Yeah see thats kind of what you said:
From Trammenis' point of view, he is actually giving Parson a genuinely good offer. Keep some of the most powerful units that you would otherwise lose, and you don't have to deal with us during the rest of your war. Oh, and we'll end up actually helping you in future, as well.


I thought the rest of my post explained it clearly enough.I apologize for the confusion.

Which is irrelevant. Remember, Trammenis doesn't know that Gobwin Knob is still capable of taking Jetstone. He thinks that he has the upper hand, at least for the moment. "No future conflict with Jetstone" is actually a very nice deal if Gobwin Knob is greatly weakened. Trammenis thinks that it is.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=/2010-10-09.jpg
Remember this page that you posted? In it Tram says that GK "could still eventually crush the coalition." GK is still powerful enough to crush Jetstone, and in fact the entirity of the "coalition". AND TRAM KNOWS IT.


But Gobwin Knob would have to do so without their Master-class Croakamancer, Master-class Foolamancer, most of their dwagons and all of their archons, as well as all the magical equipment that those units have with them. This would make it very difficult for Gobwin Knob to win. They still could, but it would be a long and bloody battle, and it would cost them a lot, both in terms of Shmuckers and in terms of lives. Trammenis is offering to step aside, thus making Gobwin Knob's victory over the rest of the Coalition that much easier.

GK wants to take out Jetstone and I highly doubt this will change. Especially after Jetstone gets the arkenpliers.


You don't. Trammenis does.

And they would still have the force to do it with out Wanda or those dwagons.


Agreed, but it would take much longer and cost much more.

"Peace with Jetstone" is in no way what GK wants.


Trammenis thinks that it might be, after he gets a chance to talk to Parson.

That isn't something that Jetstone is offering, its what they are asking for.


Exactly. In exchange for peace, they are willing to sign a non-aggression treaty with a possibility of future alliance, as well as letting Gobwin Knob keep pretty much everything except the Croakamancer and the Arkenpliers.

So again we are too trading not-killing-dwagons+casters+warlord for not-killing-Jetstone. This isn't close to a balanced trade, especially since GK will gain from the Jetstone cities and possibly captured casters, if they make war not love.


No, we aren't. We are examining a trade of several high-level dwagons, a Master-class Foolamancer, all the equipment, and the troops and Shmuckers that Gobwin Knob would otherwise lose fighting Jetstone for not destroying Jetstone. In addition, Trammenis offers the lives and Shmuckers that might be saved if Gobwin Knob and Jetstone ever enter into a full alliance.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:39 pm

Selexor wrote:The problem with this is that the Atrium, which is Spacerock's equivalent of a Courtyard, is a different city zone than the Tower. Decrypted foot soldiers could no more enter the Tower from the ground than the dwagons could roast it from the Airspace.


I never meant to imply that they could take the tower this turn. But by ducking into the Atrium, they could lay claim to a huge number of ground units in an essentially invulnerable position.

Plans that give Gobwin Knob more units inside Spacerock are all well and good, but problem is that Gobwin Knob doesn't need more units inside Spacerock. They have more than enough to win. No, the problem is that they can't cross City Zones to do anything with those units, and those units can't defend themselves in their current position. If Parson figures out an exploit that lets him cross City Zones, he doesn't need new units, he just has to tell the dwagons to attack.


Which is why the Atrium is so important. Parson can't send his units to attack the tower. End of story. It's not possible this turn. But he can get them out of the airspace via exploitation of the "falling" mechanic. Essentially, he switches his units from air to ground, sacrificing some of the dwagons for an army of Decrypted infantry, plus however many dwagons he can manage to save via the Healomancy scrolls left over from Jack, Wanda, Ossomer and Sylvia. He will lose some dwagons, yes, but he was going to lose them all, so this is a definite improvement. And the sudden switch from dwagon riders to infantry means that Jetstone's defensive forces are in entirely the wrong areas to defend themselves. And Wanda can lead the Decrypted infantry in dance-fighting, which she couldn't do with the dwagons.

Gobwin Knob doesn't need more units inside Spacerock... except that it's about to lose most of the units that are currently there. The only viable option is to replace them with other units, ones which can continue the attack on the next turn, but which aren't subject to archer attack this turn.

I really see only two possible uses of this tactic that work at the moment:
1 - Now there are less melee units inside Spacerock that could discover and/or attack Parson when he enters via the Magic Portal.
2 - This is a fantastic distraction that will keep Tramennis and Slately occupied away from whatever Parson's doing... so long as they don't get angry enough to just open fire, which Parson is trying to stop them from doing.


Except that Parson has already stated that he "might not even go", so we know that Parson's presence isn't strictly vital to whatever this part of the plan is. Whatever is going on right now, it's got nothing to do with Parson's planned excursion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Foolamancer » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:44 pm

Selexor wrote:Jetstone aren't that foolish: once they saw what was happening, they'd wipe out all the dwagons instantly rather than stand there and look sad about how unsuccessful their parley is being.


Which is the reason for the screening stacks Parson mentioned - buying Wanda, Jack, Sylvia and Ossomer time to get down into the Atrium. You'll also note that Parson considered it lucky to be placed over the garrison.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:56 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Lamech wrote:Remember this page that you posted? In it Tram says that GK "could still eventually crush the coalition." GK is still powerful enough to crush Jetstone, and in fact the entirity of the "coalition". AND TRAM KNOWS IT. GK wants to take out Jetstone and I highly doubt this will change. Especially after Jetstone gets the arkenpliers. And they would still have the force to do it with out Wanda or those dwagons. "Peace with Jetstone" is in no way what GK wants. That isn't something that Jetstone is offering, its what they are asking for. So again we are too trading not-killing-dwagons+casters+warlord for not-killing-Jetstone. This isn't close to a balanced trade, especially since GK will gain from the Jetstone cities and possibly captured casters, if they make war not love.


Could is, quite explicitly by definition, a conditional word indicating possibility. Tramennis is speculating, but it is by no means a done deal; there are way too many variables for that.


Also, being "powerful enough to crush the RCC II" doesn't mean "will crush the RCC II", since GK has other actual and potential enemies. Both Trammenis and Parson are aware of Charlie, for example.

If GK doesn't want peace, then why did they parley in earnest with Unaroyal?

It seems to me that Stanley doesn't know exactly what he wants, so he has allowed Wanda to define it, but she is also unclear what she should do to reach her goal of uniting the Arkentools. Further, it seems that Wanda has not been straight with Stanley about that goal because it would lead to uncomfortable conversations about Charlie.

Can you point to a text update or comic page where Stanley describes GK's strategic goals, either in general or why they are attacking Jetstone? Or Wanda, for that matter? This strike on Spacerock was originally Ansom's idea.


Selexor wrote:The problem with this is that the Atrium, which is Spacerock's equivalent of a Courtyard, is a different city zone than the Tower.


There's no evidence that the Courtyard, Tower and Dungeon of a Garrison are separate city zones.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby fjolnir » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:10 pm

They are and require move to go from one to another if you're on the attack, but if one falls, you may freely attack the others, though what "freely attack" entails is left to the reader to determine.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:12 pm

Hmmm. All true, Foolamancer, good point(s).

There's only one thing about this plan that still niggles at me - and obviously it can't be proven one way or the other just yet.

This is how, exactly, they plan to get Wanda and Jack out of the airspace, when Parson clearly intends for them to survive what's happening. We know that falling from this height carries a pretty decent height of croaking outright... and even if the fall only incapacitates or injures them, they're now going to be landing in a puddle of acidic dwagon crap. This strikes me as a bad plan.
At the same time, Tramennis is clearly not an idiot - if he sees Wanda decrypting the masses below he's going to order his archers to open fire on her, and even with Jack casting baffles and Healomancy to protect her, the odds of her surviving are not good. And if Jetstone is faced with obliteration next turn from the Decrypted, Tramennis isn't going to hold back anything, especially given that he believes croaking Wanda will destroy the Decrypted. He'll hit her with everything he's got.
So if they stay where they are, they almost certainly croak. If they fall, they almost certainly croak. And if they could move to another Zone without falling, they'd be able to attack the tower and it all becomes moot. None of these look good to me.

I know it's a string of "ifs" but to be fair, they're pretty big "ifs". Maybe Parson intends to get into a position where Jetstone's going to fall next turn no matter what, and then negotiate from a position of strength. But, unless I'm missing something (and I probably am), this plan still has a pretty big hole in it for Parson, Jack and Wanda to be as confident as they seem.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Morgaln » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:35 pm

Selexor wrote:Hmmm. All true, Foolamancer, good point(s).

There's only one thing about this plan that still niggles at me - and obviously it can't be proven one way or the other just yet.

This is how, exactly, they plan to get Wanda and Jack out of the airspace, when Parson clearly intends for them to survive what's happening. We know that falling from this height carries a pretty decent height of croaking outright... and even if the fall only incapacitates or injures them, they're now going to be landing in a puddle of acidic dwagon crap. This strikes me as a bad plan.
At the same time, Tramennis is clearly not an idiot - if he sees Wanda decrypting the masses below he's going to order his archers to open fire on her, and even with Jack casting baffles and Healomancy to protect her, the odds of her surviving are not good. And if Jetstone is faced with obliteration next turn from the Decrypted, Tramennis isn't going to hold back anything, especially given that he believes croaking Wanda will destroy the Decrypted. He'll hit her with everything he's got.
So if they stay where they are, they almost certainly croak. If they fall, they almost certainly croak. And if they could move to another Zone without falling, they'd be able to attack the tower and it all becomes moot. None of these look good to me.

I know it's a string of "ifs" but to be fair, they're pretty big "ifs". Maybe Parson intends to get into a position where Jetstone's going to fall next turn no matter what, and then negotiate from a position of strength. But, unless I'm missing something (and I probably am), this plan still has a pretty big hole in it for Parson, Jack and Wanda to be as confident as they seem.


There's also the question on whether Wanda can even decrypt units without landing; considering spells usually can't cross city zones off-turn the same is likely to be true for the pliers. Even though the ground is considered the border to airspace, the bodies should be considered to be in the courtyard. After all, if every spell can affect units on the ground just because they are rising above the ground, then why couldn't Charlie's archons help the RC in book 1 after allying with them again? They could have easily cast spells on GK's units in that case. So personally, I doubt Wanda can decrypt the fallen units without getting out of airspace first.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:40 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Selexor wrote:The problem with this is that the Atrium, which is Spacerock's equivalent of a Courtyard, is a different city zone than the Tower.


There's no evidence that the Courtyard, Tower and Dungeon of a Garrison are separate city zones.

They are classified as Sub-Zones. So there is a direct distinction between them, and rules about attacking any Garrison Sub-Zone from any other City Zone (only airspace may hit tower, for example). We know that enemy units can move from one Sub-Zone to the next when attacking; what we don't know is if enemy units can cross Sub-Zones off-turn. There's no firm evidence of this one way or the other, but I personally suspect that it wouldn't be allowed... the distinction wouldn't need to exist otherwise.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby zilfallon » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:19 am

Foolamancer wrote:
zilfallon wrote:I think the yellow dwagons didn't just crap:

In a city airspace they could just drop arrows or whatever, and yellow dwagons can crap from the airspace off turn. Could be useful. I wanna talk to Sizemore about bombs. Maybe he can do portable Dirtamancy traps we could drop from dwagons.


Maybe Parson made Sizemore "implant" explosive Dirtamancy crap traps into yellow dwagons before the air force took off from GK? (This KLOG was written when Jack was at GK together with Hamster)


That's true, but when did Sizemore leave for the Magic Kingdom? That's the important part.

If their regular crap was strong enough to melt roofs and croak infantry, then how did Bogroll survive being crapped to? At the first pages, a yellow dwagon crapped on Bogroll, and Bogroll was able to "protect" himself with just an umbrella. So, unless that umbrella is tougher than a roof, yellow dwagons at Spacerock didn't just crap, they crapped Dirtamancy traps inside them!


I don't think so. As we see in summer update #32:

The ground came up, and Banana squashed into it, face first. The impact was hard enough that Parson was thrown out of the saddle and rolled on the bricks twice. As he lay in a heap, the nearby pikers immediately scrambled to his aid.

The dwagon roared angrily, and took off into the sky, leaving a steaming pile of acidic battlecrap on the pavement.


So yellow dwagons' crap is naturally acidic, which would imply that it is fully capable of croaking infantry and acting as siege. It also implies that twolls are extremely tough units.


Sieggy wrote:Bogroll was a Twoll, with regeneration as a special ability. Also, he was probably strong enough to survive the initial impact, and I can see the Hobgobwins (Vurp especially) laughing uproariously at him as they hosed him off. Since Parson did kind of foreshadow the notion or 'dirtamancy traps dropped by yellow Dwagons', I can see him having pre-loaded them with, I dunno, golem seeds, something like that . . . maybe carnivorous plants that magically grow in Dwagon crap . . .


That doesn't imply twolls being tough. Bogroll protected himself with just an UMBRELLA. That umbrella was probably fabricated by himself, which makes it non-magical, just a normal umbrella. If the crap struck Bogroll and he survived with some injuries, i'd say "yes, you're right" but crap didn't hit him AT ALL.

My point is, i don't think that the same crap which couldn't even pierce an umbrella can destroy roof of a building and melt infantries to death.
rkyeun wrote:Roses are red.
Violets are blue.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:26 am

zilfallon wrote:That doesn't imply twolls being tough. Bogroll protected himself with just an UMBRELLA. That umbrella was probably fabricated by himself, which makes it non-magical, just a normal umbrella. If the crap struck Bogroll and he survived with some injuries, i'd say "yes, you're right" but crap didn't hit him AT ALL.


We didn't see Bogroll again until after Wanda complained to Sizemore, "Our turn has started". At that point, any wounds Bogroll sustained would have healed. Since the comic panels weren't retconjured when Bogroll's stat block was, the joke probably depended on Bogroll having a D&D-ish regeneration ability that would restore him to health from the state of incapacitation. In fact, the burning of his body after croaking Ansom suggests that he might have been expected to recover even from croaking.

Selexor wrote: They are classified as Sub-Zones. So there is a direct distinction between them, and rules about attacking any Garrison Sub-Zone from any other City Zone (only airspace may hit tower, for example). We know that enemy units can move from one Sub-Zone to the next when attacking; what we don't know is if enemy units can cross Sub-Zones off-turn. There's no firm evidence of this one way or the other, but I personally suspect that it wouldn't be allowed... the distinction wouldn't need to exist otherwise.


If the word sub-zones had been used, I would be inclined to agree, but the klog used the words "parts" and "areas".

(Not that this has come up in this thread, but I think this is worth pointing out) The City Zones wiki page overreaches when it claims that the Courtyard doesn't border Airspace. The klog says that Courtyard borders Outer Walls, but it doesn't say "only" Outer Walls. It would be foolish to assume that the klog was exhaustive; recall that one of Parson's stupid meals failed to mention that forest units in a wooded hex can attack flying units.
Last edited by Chit Rule Railroad on Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:37 am

Well I actually got that term from The Wiki Page. But as you point out, the comic doesn't specify that, and of course there is no evidence that you can't cross Sub-Zones when it's not your turn.

So yeah, I have no evidence to think that, it just strikes me as the way it'd probably work. I could easily be wrong.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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