Book 2 – Text Updates 036

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Tiger » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:35 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:
Geordy wrote:But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison? Text update 25 talks about "potshots" the yellows could make at Tram hopping beneath them. Am I confusing the events in the current update with the yellow's normal attack? So what is their normal attack? And is it acidic, too?

Something here stinks, and it is not just the dwagon cwap. :P


But why would they attack the garrison? The garrison units can't attack the dwagons, while the archers can. Put the dwagons over the garrison, who will be shielded from their falling corpses, instead of elsewhere which would be over archers where the dwagons might attack back with crap and where falling corpses will do some damage.

Except that the garrison is the single most valuable part of the city. If the garrison falls, the entire city goes with it - and any units remaining in the city are immediately captured. Heck, at least Slately's death would have still left the city with a fighting chance.

Magothys wrote:The other issue then, is Trammenis speculating about a bombardment on the garrison. Trammenis is wiser than most warlords. My guess is GK initiating aggression on the garrison would essentially be considered suicide; it wouldn't help the dwagon's survival from the arrows, and no one is expecting units to fall through the zone boundary.

Just my two cents.

The only way it makes any sense is if Jetstone didn't bother taking precautions because they knew they could easily stop an assault of this type, but it's stated in this very update that Antium (and presumably everyone else) didn't even think this was possible. That's less of a brilliant exploit and more Jetstone being completely ignorant of the fact that dwagon crap counts as a siege weapon - which is not only unacceptably cheap from a storytelling perspective, but also completely contradictory to everything we've seen so far. Erfworlders know the rules of their world, but Parson's the one who figures out how to apply them in creative ways.

name lips wrote:From what I gather, Parson is the only person who has realized that dwagon crap counts as a "dropped item" not an attack. So it can cross illegal boundaries on off-turns. AND it causes siege damage..

That explanation was obviated by Slately's comment (and Tramennis' confirmation) that the yellow dwagons could bomb the tower off-turn.

HailGreen28 wrote:The roof isn't sturdy. Wasn't meant to withstand attack on an enemy's turn, just disguise the force under it. (And keep the rain out, LOL) Currently the roof may be protected against attack only by the invisible barrier between zones. Said barrier the JS warlords knew would be sufficient to deflect ANY attack on their turn, sonic or otherwise. Surprise surprise, Parson thought of an attack that DOES pass through zone barriers, and the roof itself is practically no protection overhead.

Except that this update specifically stated that Antium expected the roof to protect them from anything the enemy could throw at them. Which, again, leads us to the conclusion that Jetstone somehow didn't realize that dwagon crap was classified as a siege weapon.
Last edited by Tiger on Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby HailGreen28 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:44 pm

Tiger wrote:Except that this update specifically stated that Antium expected the roof to protect them from anything the enemy could throw at them. Which, again, leads us to the conclusion that Jetstone somehow didn't realize that dwagon crap was classified as a siege weapon.
The Jetstone warlords were counting on the barrier between zones to protect them off-turn, not the weak glass roof itself. I'm guessing hearing the bodies thump on the roof is what it would sound like as they hit the zone barrier in the same place.

I think the tower is in airspace, the Atrium isn't. Which is why JS was worried about the tower getting hit, not the Atrium.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ansan Gotti » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:47 pm

Tiger wrote:Except that the garrison is the single most valuable part of the city. If the garrison falls, the entire city goes with it - and any units remaining in the city are immediately captured. Heck, at least Slately's death would have still left the city with a fighting chance.


Garrison has sub-zones (courtyard, tower, dungeon) and all three need to be taken before the city falls.

I don't think Jetstone would normally be all that exercised about some siege potshots against their garrison. After all, if it's Jetstone's turn, that's about all GK can do in Jetstone's mind, so even if a few units die, they're still well in control of the courtyard (and garrison) and still have all of their archers to obliterate GK. Again, in Jetstone's mind.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Magothys » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:54 pm

Tiger wrote:Except that the garrison is the single most valuable part of the city. If the garrison falls, the entire city goes with it - and any units remaining in the city are immediately captured


I think we're confusing the garrison with the courtyard. The garrison contains the courtyard (atrium), but the courtyard does not comprise the entire garrison.

Tiger wrote:The only way it makes any sense is if Jetstone didn't bother taking precautions because they knew they could easily stop an assault of this type, but it's stated in this very update that Antium (and presumably everyone else) didn't even think this was possible. That's less of a brilliant exploit and more Jetstone being completely ignorant of the fact that dwagon crap counts as a siege weapon - which is not only unacceptably cheap from a storytelling perspective, but also completely contradictory to everything we've seen so far. Erfworlders know the rules of their world, but Parson's the one who figures out how to apply them in creative ways.


They know dwagon crap is considered a siege attack, but they are ignorant that dwagon crap counts as a falling object, separating it from the purple dwagon's sonic weapon.

Tiger wrote:Except that this update specifically stated that Antium expected the roof to protect them from anything the enemy could throw at them. Which, again, leads us to the conclusion that Jetstone somehow didn't realize that dwagon crap was classified as a siege weapon.


Antium expected the roof to protect them from falling debris. He expected the zone boundary to protect from siege.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby HailGreen28 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:54 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:The roof isn't sturdy. Wasn't meant to withstand attack on an enemy's turn, just disguise the force under it. (And keep the rain out, LOL) Currently the roof may be protected against attack only by the invisible barrier between zones. Said barrier the JS warlords knew would be sufficient to deflect ANY attack on their turn, sonic or otherwise. Surprise surprise, Parson thought of an attack that DOES pass through zone barriers, and the roof itself is practically no protection overhead.

Tiger wrote:Except that this update specifically stated that Antium expected the roof to protect them from anything the enemy could throw at them. Which, again, leads us to the conclusion that Jetstone somehow didn't realize that dwagon crap was classified as a siege weapon.
Jetstone thought the Dwagons couldn't use their siege attacks across zones off-turn. Parson found a way. That Tramennis was aware of when he walked under the Dwagons, but like Sizemore talking to Parson, nobody thought that tactic could be used effectively. Apparently you can't aim the "falling attack" well, but Parson is introducing "saturation bombing". :twisted:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Tiger » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:55 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:I think the tower is in airspace, the Atrium isn't. Which is why JS was worried about the tower getting hit, not the Atrium.

Tower is in the garrison and borders airspace.

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Tiger wrote:Except that the garrison is the single most valuable part of the city. If the garrison falls, the entire city goes with it - and any units remaining in the city are immediately captured. Heck, at least Slately's death would have still left the city with a fighting chance.


Garrison has sub-zones (courtyard, tower, dungeon) and all three need to be taken before the city falls.

I don't think Jetstone would normally be all that exercised about some siege potshots against their garrison. After all, if it's Jetstone's turn, that's about all GK can do in Jetstone's mind, so even if a few units die, they're still well in control of the courtyard (and garrison) and still have all of their archers to obliterate GK. Again, in Jetstone's mind.

That makes some sense. I forgot that the tower also needed to fall before the garrison was considered taken. (I don't think Spacerock has a tunnel system, so no dungeon.)

Magothys wrote:
Tiger wrote:Except that the garrison is the single most valuable part of the city. If the garrison falls, the entire city goes with it - and any units remaining in the city are immediately captured


I think we're confusing the garrison with the courtyard. The garrison contains the courtyard (atrium), but the courtyard does not comprise the entire garrison.

Fair point.

They know dwagon crap is considered a siege attack, but they are ignorant that dwagon crap counts as a falling object, separating it from the purple dwagon's sonic weapon.

Perhaps Antium was ignorant of it, but Trammennis and Slately weren't. They were concerned specifically with the yellows.

Antium expected the roof to protect them from falling debris. He expected the zone boundary to protect from siege.

See above.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Sieggy » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:02 pm

. . . and somewhere in the Atrium is some poor schmoo named 'Fan' who will probably be the first one hit . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby javcs » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:03 pm

I believe it may be a factor of not knowing.
Of the known sides, it appears that Gobwin Knob is the only one that fields dragons.
Gobwin Knob has not had the most devious warlords before Parson. Especially since Stanley's assumption of Rulership.
It is quite possible, likely even, that yellow dragons were never in a position where the fact that their crap was both siege and could cross zone boundaries would have been recognized.
Consider - if you're attacking a city, the purple's would be trashing stuff, while yellows would mostly be crapping on units, and if they hit a building, well, it got mixed up with the rest of the destruction - oh, and it would be your turn.
In addition, it is likely, I think, that Stanley would have not used yellows as much - purple's, with a breath weapon, appear (superficially, at least) to be more versatile than yellows, with their flaming acid poop bombs.

If you're attacking a cluster of dragons, if they're in a city, they're aiming at your troops, not their buildings - no way to see that they're siege - and, they don't have boundary restrictions; if they're in the open, well, again, no way to see that they are siege and can cross zone boundaries.


Erfworld units know the basic 'physics' of Erf, warlords learn from other warlords, experience, and from reading the stats that they can see.
I don't remember if it was ever clarified, but there was a contentious debate as to whether or not you could see the full stats of other sides' units, hostile or otherwise. If you could only see the full stats of a hostile unit if it was captured, then, well, seriously, why would you capture a dragon? Especially when its Ruler has the Arkenhammer.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Hatu » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:04 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
name lips wrote:They DID NOT think the yellow dwagons could attack the Atrium. But they DID think the dwagons could attack the Tower.
...
From what I gather, Parson is the only person who has realized that dwagon crap counts as a "dropped item" not an attack. So it can cross illegal boundaries on off-turns. AND it causes siege damage.


Jetstone was indeed aware that yellow dwagons could attack the garrison, Tramennis was thinking about it as he entered the city across the courtyard in his tankeroo.

And as for the attack on the garrison, Jetstone probably thinks it's a waste of ammo and effort right now, since the ground units are superfluous to the battle in their minds.


I'm sure it would look foolish, but that's still a long way from being impossible. Antium knows the Purples could break the roof but can't attack across the zone, yet he pays the Yellows no mind. It seems like a glaring omission, especially since, as Geordy points out, Tram already considered that they could attack the tower.


Ansan Gotti wrote:But that's what the gravity exploit is. Fired arrows, for example, can't cross boundaries. But a dropped arrow can. A targeted breath weapon can't cross boundaries. But a dropped breath weapon can. This is actually something which is known even to Jetstone, as Tramennis was concerned about being hit by yellow dwagon potshots as he was bounding across the courtyard in his tankeroo during his triumphant return to Jetstone.

I understand it's a bit of a fine distinction, but that's what exploits are. And Rob has spent more than a few updates on setting this up.


It's not a fine distinction, it's an arbitrary one. Dropping an arrow and firing a bow are distinct actions. This would be akin to claiming that firing a bow is meaningfully different than pulling an arrow back against a bowstring and suddenly releasing your fingers.

Rob has spent a lot of time alluding to the falling exploit, yet we still have no idea how Erfworld works. So knowing that an exploit exists doesn't mean much. Maybe Erfworld DOES have a "firing mechanism" that's distinct from the physical actions taken by Characters, but if so, the time to explain that was BEFORE this comic, not after it.

-H
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby HailGreen28 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:13 pm

Tiger wrote:
HailGreen28 wrote:I think the tower is in airspace, the Atrium isn't. Which is why JS was worried about the tower getting hit, not the Atrium.

Tower is in the garrison and borders airspace.
And Tram had considered the yellow dwagons bombing the tower as well, perhaps in desperation. But attacking a part of the garrison on the ground? To use a Princess Bride quote, Inconceivable!

We've seen fights between tower/airspace like Wanda hitting Jillian's strike force. Where Jillian could have croaked Wanda if she wanted to. Nobody expected a calculated attack with "falling" to another area, like the Atrium.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Magothys » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:15 pm

They know dwagon crap is considered a siege attack, but they are ignorant that dwagon crap counts as a falling object, separating it from the purple dwagon's sonic weapon.

Tiger wrote:Perhaps Antium was ignorant of it, but Trammennis and Slately weren't.

Antium expected the roof to protect them from falling debris. He expected the zone boundary to protect from siege.


Tiger wrote:See above.


Agreed.

As I said though, Trammenis/Slately are wiser than the rest of Jetstone. My guess was that while Trammenis considered the crap attack a possibility, actually attacking the courtyard, in his eyes, would be equivalent to suicide; they would open themselves to aggression from archers. Attacking the courtyard would have no perceived benefit to surviving the archer assault, as they would be neither attacking the archers nor escaping them (since they are not anticipating the use of falling mechanics to move units).
Last edited by Magothys on Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ansan Gotti » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:20 pm

Hatu wrote:Rob has spent a lot of time alluding to the falling exploit, yet we still have no idea how Erfworld works. So knowing that an exploit exists doesn't mean much. Maybe Erfworld DOES have a "firing mechanism" that's distinct from the physical actions taken by Characters, but if so, the time to explain that was BEFORE this comic, not after it.


I have agreed with a lot of your posts in the past, but I honestly think you're a bit off-base on this one. He absolutely HAS explained it:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-09.jpg

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-12.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Hatu » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:40 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Hatu wrote:Rob has spent a lot of time alluding to the falling exploit, yet we still have no idea how Erfworld works. So knowing that an exploit exists doesn't mean much. Maybe Erfworld DOES have a "firing mechanism" that's distinct from the physical actions taken by Characters, but if so, the time to explain that was BEFORE this comic, not after it.


I have agreed with a lot of your posts in the past, but I honestly think you're a bit off-base on this one. He absolutely HAS explained it:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-09.jpg

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-12.jpg


Hmmm. Good point, it's been a while since I read the second one. It does state that "shooting" at the ground is the trick, not simply dropping ordinance. I guess that does indeed make sense. My bad.

That said, it does make me wonder why Trammenis thought the Yellows could attack the Tower. It should have been immune to off-turn assault as well, and I seriously doubt Tram knew about the shoot-at-the-ground exploit.

-H
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby joosy » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:47 pm

Of course the image for this update would HAVE to have some sepia tones :) Thank goodness smell-o-vision hasn't been made possible for the internets (yet).

For now you will just have to use your imagination on what burning flesh and cwap smells like. Those of you who dont - I don't want to know.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Magothys » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:49 pm

Hatu wrote:That said, it does make me wonder why Trammenis thought the Yellows could attack the Tower. It should have been immune to off-turn assault as well, and I seriously doubt Tram knew about the shoot-at-the-ground exploit.


Magothys wrote:according to the first text update in issue 2, units can fire across boundaries in defense when their city is being attacked. I imagine the same applies to the dwagons in this unique situation; they are allowed to fire across zones in defense (from arrows). Trammenis and Slately were probably expecting a bombardment on the towers AFTER Jetstone began firing arrows on the dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby joosy » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:10 pm

Magothys wrote:according to the first text update in issue 2, units can fire across boundaries in defense when their city is being attacked. I imagine the same applies to the dwagons in this unique situation; they are allowed to fire across zones in defense (from arrows). Trammenis and Slately were probably expecting a bombardment on the towers AFTER Jetstone began firing arrows on the dwagons.


The full sentence reads: "But when its not their turn they can only shoot enemy units in the same hex (or city zone if their side doesn't own the city), or as defense when your city is being attacked."

Since GK's city is not being attacked, the dwagons cannot attack across zones off-turn. They are essentially sitting dwucks. Or at least they are while they remain in the Airspace. With the holes made by the acidic battle crap they can now fall into the Courtyard zone of the garrison and, without the Tower defenses to worry about, and, assuming Wanda survives, the added bonus of decrypted Jetstone's non-archer units (ironically placed in the Courtyard to avoid being crushed by the falling bodies) they can probably take the entire Garrison without razing it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Wyvern » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:19 pm

Let's try to recap some stuff we know about cities.

To conquer the city, you need to capture and clear out its garrison, which consists of the tower (borders the airspace), the courtyard (borders the outer walls), and the dungeon (borders the tunnels). Gobwin Knob has flying units in the airspace, bordering the tower. Jetstone has archers in the tower and infantry in the courtyard. So in terms of the conventional rules, Gobwin Knob's win condition is to (somehow) survive against Jetstone's archers until their next turn (or kill them), move into the tower (can't be done until their next turn), and then attack the other garrison zones (or possibly Stately) from there.

Even if Gobwin Knob can hit the courtyard with the yellow dwagons, and Jetstone knows it, there's no reason why they would. It's inane. The units in the courtyard can't do anything to them in the airspace. They can't move dwagons or archons from the airspace to the outer walls to the courtyard, so they can't actually take any part of the garrison by doing this. Attacking the courtyard would serve only to piss off the archers, who would then proceed to butcher all the busy dwagons (it's been heavily implied that Jetstone's archers alone are more than a match for Gobwin Knob's airforce). The archers are what Gobwin Knob needs to beat to win, and since the archers are in the tower, attacking anything other than the tower won't help them survive and won't give them any sort of advantage that they can actually press. This may be why nobody is worrying about any potential damage that could be dealt to the courtyard...given, of course, that they aren't aware of any shenanigans that WOULD allow Gobwin Knob to somehow move actual units into their garrison via the courtyard from the airspace (i.e. falling units).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby kefkakrazy » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:32 pm

Oh sh-

...literally...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Decorus » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:37 pm

They kill the garrison then decrypt them. The city is considered to be 1 zone meaning the newly decrypted infantry will be in the battle fighting for GK when the attack begins.
The crap is crossing zones, because gravity still applies. This is the case of the brick that Parson discussed earlier in the midsummer updates. The Yellow dragon's crap is affected by gravity still while it has a low chance of actually hitting anything the fact that the garrison is crammed with troops means its gotta hit someone.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby joosy » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:45 pm

Decorus wrote:The city is considered to be 1 zone meaning the newly decrypted infantry will be in the battle fighting for GK when the attack begins.


The city is considered one zone for the side who owns/controls the city. For all others, including allied units, move must be spent to cross zones. You cannot spend move off-turn. The zones are Airspace/Outer Walls/Garrison/Tunnels.

The GARRISON includes the Tower, Courtyard, and Dungeon (which SpaceRock has- SpaceRock has no tunnel system, however)
For any unit, the garrison is one zone so once on the 'ground' GK's units can move between each Garrison area indiscriminately.

Once any Jetstone units are decrypted they are then GK units and must follow the move restrictions that any GK unit has.

Note: All of the key units (royalty, casters, etc) are in the tower. They will be soon forced to defend the tower against an army of dance fighting decrypted units coming up the stairs. The foreshadowing of the jetpack will bear fruit very soon, I believe. I also wonder what a dance fighting decrypted dwagon would look like - other than a sign of the Apocalypse.
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