Book 2 – Text Updates 036

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ansan Gotti » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:59 pm

Oberon wrote:
Geordy wrote:But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison?
I believe that any explanation will follow the same "Jetstone knew that it had the overwhelming upper hand, and so they allowed themselves to be outmaneuvered" mindset which has been the rationale for at least a dozen updates for Jetstone not doing so: They could at any time, and wanted to gloat a bit and pretend to be magnanimous and otherwise "royal" before slaughtering the GK forces. Is it a bit strained? Yep, it sure is.


I'm not sure why either one of you is assuming that the main body of troops can be anywhere significantly safer. Archers are crowding the tower, walls are definitely susceptible to attack, and the open-air part of the city/courtyard seems much more exposed than the defensible atrium. Perhaps they could have been stashed in the dungeon, but there might be space constraints and it might take longer to bring them to bear than the atrium. And the atrium is where the main body of troops is clearly intended to be quartered, based on the apparent city design as described in the first update describing the atrium.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby nothrien » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:24 pm

Duke Antium may have just been dumb or ignorant about acidic battlecrap being siege. Trammennis knew, but he probably falsely assumed that the tower would be the only real strategic target for them, since there was no point to attacking the ground forces.

I think the real key to Jetstone's supposed victory was that the Goblin Knob forces couldn't escape the airspace, even though they could still bombard ground forces. It hasn't been shown that Wanda can decrypt across city zones off-turn, so unless she crosses zones into Garrison (which it is reasonable for Jetstone to believe is impossible),then the invading force is doomed no matter what. And even if Wanda COULD decrypt across zones, that would still leave her a sitting duck. And once she's dead, so too may be all the decrypted forces.

So again, the real key to Parson's plan is to have Wanda cross zones into the Garrison by using the falling exploit. Then she would be both sheltered from the archers AND able to decrypt any unit in the Garrison zone. 'Course, she might still die from the fall -- but even at 1/3rd chance, it's a risk worth taking.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:08 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Geordy wrote:But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison?
I believe that any explanation will follow the same "Jetstone knew that it had the overwhelming upper hand, and so they allowed themselves to be outmaneuvered" mindset which has been the rationale for at least a dozen updates for Jetstone not doing so: They could at any time, and wanted to gloat a bit and pretend to be magnanimous and otherwise "royal" before slaughtering the GK forces. Is it a bit strained? Yep, it sure is.
I'm not sure why either one of you is assuming that the main body of troops can be anywhere significantly safer.
I'm not concerned about the positioning of the troops. At all. What makes the story read false to me is the overblown "Royals always want to gloat, so we know that rather than wiping out with ease the force that would have wiped them out with ease the prior turn, if not for the wholly unanticipated Kingworld turn ending spell, we'll be all relaxed again and fall right back into our regularly scheduled evil mastermind monologueing gloat mode." Rather than, you know, doing a collective "HOLY CWAP! IF NOT FOR KINGWORLD, JETSTONE WOULD BE RUBBLE RIGHT NOW!!", and quickly and efficiently wiping out the GK expeditionary forces instead of calling for unnecessary parlays and other such nonsense.

As Dunkan put it: If Jetstone falls now, they deserve to. But Dunkan was only talking about the relative force assessment. He forgot to include a whole lot of unnecessary plot complication which handed Jetstone the idiot ball rather than letting them actually use their strength when they could have.

If there is any confusion on this point, just realize that had the combat started out with the twanging of bowstrings rather than the calling for a parley and the dookieing of dwagons who had been conveniently ordered to array themselves right where Parson wanted them, by EVERY ASSESSMENT the GK forces were doomed. And how hard is it, really, to yell out "ARCHERS, FIRE!"?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:36 am

Oberon wrote:I'm not concerned about the positioning of the troops. At all. What makes the story read false to me is the overblown "Royals always want to gloat, so we know that rather than wiping out with ease the force that would have wiped them out with ease the prior turn, if not for the wholly unanticipated Kingworld turn ending spell, we'll be all relaxed again and fall right back into our regularly scheduled evil mastermind monologueing gloat mode." Rather than, you know, doing a collective "HOLY CWAP! IF NOT FOR KINGWORLD, JETSTONE WOULD BE RUBBLE RIGHT NOW!!", and quickly and efficiently wiping out the GK expeditionary forces instead of calling for unnecessary parlays and other such nonsense.

As Dunkan put it: If Jetstone falls now, they deserve to. But Dunkan was only talking about the relative force assessment. He forgot to include a whole lot of unnecessary plot complication which handed Jetstone the idiot ball rather than letting them actually use their strength when they could have.

If there is any confusion on this point, just realize that had the combat started out with the twanging of bowstrings rather than the calling for a parley and the dookieing of dwagons who had been conveniently ordered to array themselves right where Parson wanted them, by EVERY ASSESSMENT the GK forces were doomed. And how hard is it, really, to yell out "ARCHERS, FIRE!"?


Except that Tremmanis didn't want to gloat and wanted to make an actual alliance with GK. Slately may have an idiot ball, but he's not calling the shots here.

Just because someone makes a decision that turns out to be wrong doesn't mean that they're an idiot.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Spot » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:22 am

Oberon wrote:
If there is any confusion on this point, just realize that had the combat started out with the twanging of bowstrings rather than the calling for a parley and the dookieing of dwagons who had been conveniently ordered to array themselves right where Parson wanted them, by EVERY ASSESSMENT the GK forces were doomed. And how hard is it, really, to yell out "ARCHERS, FIRE!"?



Real-world history is full of much much stupider military decisions. Specifically, parleying when parleying was a bad, bad idea.

The parley with the Black Prince during the Great Peasant Revolt in England would qualify as really bad.

Also, parleying with the Mongols never worked out, but there are like 10 or 15 horrific examples of folks who kept trying it... so pretty much all of the Kievan Rus and Polish nobility ended up dead because of parleys or truce deals which the mongols saw as opportunities for easy kills.

Cortez and the other Conquistadors had some excellent parleys and truces with folks that they promptly kidnapped, ransomed, and then murdered. It was like a cottage industry.

Oh, and who could forget the Native North Americans and all of the lovely signed treaties that they managed to negotiate with the U.S. ;) You'd figure that after the first 20 or so violated treaties, and after being pushed back hundreds of miles from the site of the initial beach landings/invasion points that they'd have gotten a clue as to what was going on and stopped asking for treaties... but hey, some folks are just naïve I guess.

Compared to any one of a hundred real-world examples of actual national leaders in history, the Jetstone folks are pretty par for the course.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Lamech » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:53 am

Compared to any one of a hundred real-world examples of actual national leaders in history, the Jetstone folks are pretty par for the course.
Except up until this point GK hand't shown much in the way of treachery, and in fact asked for an alliance at every chance. Also they continue to attempt to parley despite the fact that they have been repeatedly burned (Bea, Jillian) for it, and even move into the position you want so they are able to parley. Thats fairly indicitive that they do desire to make an alliance with you. And of course GK is still fully capable of destroying them regarldess of the outcome of this battle. NOT making an alliance will get them killed. Tram thinks that he has some leverage to secure Jetstones saftey. Too bad Parson has other plans, but Tram has no way of knowing that...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Spot » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:20 am

Lamech wrote:
Compared to any one of a hundred real-world examples of actual national leaders in history, the Jetstone folks are pretty par for the course.


Except up until this point GK hand't shown much in the way of treachery, and in fact asked for an alliance at every chance. Also they continue to attempt to parley despite the fact that they have been repeatedly burned (Bea, Jillian) for it, and even move into the position you want so they are able to parley. Thats fairly indicitive that they do desire to make an alliance with you. And of course GK is still fully capable of destroying them regarldess of the outcome of this battle. NOT making an alliance will get them killed. Tram thinks that he has some leverage to secure Jetstones saftey. Too bad Parson has other plans, but Tram has no way of knowing that...



The decisions which led to GK getting burned at parleys were made by Wanda. Wanda is a native of Erfworld, and in most respects thinks very much like the other Erfworlders. She views the universe as rules-driven, divinely-guided place where one's fate has already been written. Her newfound belief in Toolism puts maybe a millimeter's worth of space between her thinking and someone like Stately's thinking.

The decisions which have led to *other* people getting burned (and/or crushed) were made by Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ouze » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:22 am

So then, as I understand it:

The yellow dragons did not fire at the roof, which would have stopped between hexes. They simply dropped crap, which is a mechanic exploit; it then fell onto the roof, where it probably did no damage from hitting, but the secondary acidic characteristic took affect - it's melting the roof. Right?

At this point, they are probably going to have all the dragons fall from where they are. Height doesn't seem to matter much, it's random. Some will croak, some will be incapacitated, and some will be undamaged. At which point they can start decrypting troops etc, and probably attack right away even offturn - right?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Spot » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:46 am

Ouze wrote:So then, as I understand it:

The yellow dragons did not fire at the roof, which would have stopped between hexes. They simply dropped crap, which is a mechanic exploit; it then fell onto the roof, where it probably did no damage from hitting, but the secondary acidic characteristic took affect - it's melting the roof. Right?

At this point, they are probably going to have all the dragons fall from where they are. Height doesn't seem to matter much, it's random. Some will croak, some will be incapacitated, and some will be undamaged. At which point they can start decrypting troops etc, and probably attack right away even offturn - right?


As I understand it:

(A) The yellow dragon crap was dropped. It's being simply dropped, rather than being aimed and used as a weapon, allowed it to pass through the invisible barrier between the airspace zone and the courtyard section of the garrison zone.

(B) Having passed by the invisible zone barrier because of being simply dropped, the yellow dragon crap then impacted the glass roof tiles.

(C) The glass roof tiles are vulnerable to siege damage, which the yellow dragon crap does. The roof tiles break.

(D) The yellow dragon crap falls through the broken sections of roof, and drops onto the packed-together infantry below... who are vulnerable to acid damage, which the yellow dragon crap also does.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby name lips » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:55 am

OK, my best interpretation of events, given Trams previous worries about off-turn Yellow Dwagon attacks across city zones:

They knew the dwagons could attack the garrison. They knew their melee troops could potentially be vulnerable in there.

But they were even more vulnerable out in the open. Since they can't attack the dwagons, might as well hide them away, right? At least they won't be easy, obvious targets.

Why would the dwagons attack them anyway? If the archers are croaking the dwagons, what point is there in killing a few infantry? Optimally they would target the archers to maximize the minutes they get to spend alive.

Jetstone simply considered attacking their infantry to be a stupid move. Not only are the infantry harmless, but they are under the Atrium, which takes extra time to get through. And to what end?

They asked the dwagons to be positioned over the Atrium not because they thought the foot soldiers would be safe, but because in that location the dwagons couldn't target the archers. So what if there's a bit of structural damage, and some foot soldiers die? The archers will simply shoot down the dwagons anyway. Any attack GK makes would simply be a futile gesture, so why worry about it too much?


Now... enter the exploit. Not the attacking across zones, since everybody knew about and anticipated that, but the falling exploit.


The only hole I see in the plan is the chance of outright croaking. What if Wanda croaks when she falls? If she's just incapacitated she can be healed, but outright croaking isn't as easy to undo.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ace » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:58 am

The plot twist so far looks pretty good, much like the somewhat improved update speed lately. Not at all like the Kingworld nonsense. I have high hopes for where this is headed. Hopefully with GK obtaining more Mancers, especially Ace who seems to be getting set up to be Parson's new favourite caster (probably after one of the 3 he likes is croaked in the battle (and then decrypted, hence the whole "at some terrible cost" stuff... of course I'm sure there will be other costs, but that'll be the one he cares about).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Selexor » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:33 am

Hmmm... I'm not sure what Parson's plan is, obviously, but I don't like the plan of the GW units "falling" into the Atrium. It's too risky for him to like, I think. Yeah, if Wanda survives the fall, she can decrypt anyone who dies in it, but that's a mighty big "if". I'm sure Jack could use the Healamancy scroll on her if she were only injured or incapacitated, but there's just too big a chance she'd be croaked by the fall, which seems to be the most likely outcome. Whatever he's got planned, Parson seems to feel he has a decent chance of winning this fight, and his strategy-buddy Jack seems to agree. They wouldn't feel that way if the entire thing hinged upon Wanda managing against the odds to survive a suicide plunge into an acid-splattered enemy stronghold.

I do like the idea of decrypting the fallen Jetstone units in the Atrium, assuming that Wanda can Decrypt across zones in a hex. If she can do that, Jetstone are in serious trouble unless they manage to shoot her down quickly. If she can't, then I go with Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is correct. They're doing something that will infuriate Tramennis and Slately because it will infuriate Tramennis and Slately. And they're croaking ground units that might intercept Parson when he arrives in Jetstone so that they cannot intercept Parson when he arrives in Jetstone.
The royals are furious and highly distracted, and nobody is watching as Parson sneaks across the Atrium to do whatever it is he intends to do. And I do believe he intends to do something: He's not just going to Jetstone to give his small leadership bonus to his units, and he's not desperate enough to be making this trip for the sole purpose of croaking a few enemy units. Whatever Parson's plan is, he's got a specific goal in mind for when he arrives in Spacerock, and he doesn't want anyone to interrupt him.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby HandofShadows » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:04 am

BWAHAHAHA! Crapped to death. :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Radagast » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:13 am

Everyone is completely focused it seems on the fact that Wanda has the pliers and can decrypt units.

She is ALSO a master-class Croakamancer, even if she hasn't cast a spell in ages. Perhaps it is possible that she either:

a) Has a spell that would prevent her from croaking on the fall. (Unlikely if she doesn't have an anti-headache spell)

b) Has a spell that would DEFLECT her croaking damage from the fall to another unit (much more likely!)

If Parson is telling Wanada to survive at all costs, it's not likely that the plan involves anything like a 33% or more chance of her dying outright!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Megaduck » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:24 am

If there is any confusion on this point, just realize that had the combat started out with the twanging of bowstrings rather than the calling for a parley and the dookieing of dwagons who had been conveniently ordered to array themselves right where Parson wanted them, by EVERY ASSESSMENT the GK forces were doomed. And how hard is it, really, to yell out "ARCHERS, FIRE!"?


Sure, we see that, but remember, Erfworld is a TURN based game. It's Jetstone's turn, they are one move from checkmate, so why not talk to the opponent? They'd no more expect something to happen then a chess player would expect her opponent to move off turn.

All Erfworlds sides are used to be able to take all the time they need to put their ducks in a row because the fundamental rules of the universe allow them to do so. The same way the rules of our universe do NOT allow you to freeze your opponents entire side in time. A hypothetical Master General teleported to Earth mind be looked on as a genius if they figured out a loophole that allowed only their country to do ANYTHING for a day and all the generals at the pentagon would be taken just as offbalance is Jetstone is about to.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby joosy » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:09 am

I see some questions about why Jetstone didn't just wipe out the GK forces immediately.

As has been mentioned ad nauseum, by standard rules of combat, they believe they have the ultimate upper hand.

Since this battle is going on the books as 'proof' of if the Titans support Royalty or Toolism, Jetstone must appear as Royal as possible before their court and before those 'watching'.

Royalty is noble. So things must be done with plenty of pomp and ceremony showing their regalness and a final gesture of magnamity to their doomed enemy. This is why Ansom fell for the parley at Gobwin Knob so handily; he believed in nobility, in honor, and, like his chivalry, he is (was) dead.
This is also magnified by the fact that the Diplomat Prince is in charge and he likes to talk when he thinks he can.

Of course, this is crazy and Parson thinks so. I imagine anger in Erfworld would be akin to the outrage of England at those dreadful colonists who refused to fight using standard Colonial rules where you lined up your soldiers and they fired at each other, then the survivors dropped to their knees to reload and the soldiers behind them would fire, etc. You didn't shoot leadership - hence the big epaulets, hats, feathers, bling designated them as such. The American colonishs fought guerilla style from behind trees and other shelter and picked off leadership and committed other atrocious affronts to the honor of war.

To recap: Jetstone believes they are going to win regardless. They are taking their time to be as Royal as possible and also to glean as much information as possible. They didn't count on GK breaking parley (again) and basically attempting suicide by falling into the now exposed courtyard.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Ytaker » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:26 am

Megaduck wrote:
If there is any confusion on this point, just realize that had the combat started out with the twanging of bowstrings rather than the calling for a parley and the dookieing of dwagons who had been conveniently ordered to array themselves right where Parson wanted them, by EVERY ASSESSMENT the GK forces were doomed. And how hard is it, really, to yell out "ARCHERS, FIRE!"?


Sure, we see that, but remember, Erfworld is a TURN based game. It's Jetstone's turn, they are one move from checkmate, so why not talk to the opponent? They'd no more expect something to happen then a chess player would expect her opponent to move off turn.


It's pretty hilarious doing that. I suck at chess, so, sometimes, around the end I'll make a move (putting them into check), wait for a bit, and while they consider their next move, I'll move again, take their king, and walk off without a word. They never expect that. Cheating ftw.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:44 am

I'd like to point out that not all of Jetstones royalty wanted to parley, king Slatley wanted to attack and only let Trem do because a king doesn't interfere with a chief warlords strategy. And Trem had good reasons to believe that GK was desperate and would jump at any opportunity Jetstone would offer them. And we unlike Parson know that talking wouldn't have been a bad idea. Trem's offer - giving them Wanda and letting the rest go, with a huge contract penalty if they should eve attack Jetstone - was actually not bad for GK. Parson just assumed that it would be a joke because of Jack's description.

Also, Jetstone wasn't stupid to not consider the yellows a menace. Siege units can't attack the roof out of turn, and yellows aren't even siege units. When Parson suggested the plan to destroy the tower, he only identifies reds and purples as useful and Wanda uses yellows as shield. Apparently the acid crap doesn't destroy the windows as primary effect, but dissolves them as secondary effect and then falls down.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby drmartin » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:39 pm

First post ever, yay!

Has anybody proposed that Parson could order the dwagons to fall, and then have them "recover" while they're falling inside the courtyard? that way he could use the falling exploit to change zones off-turns, and then have the dwagons "safe" inside the roofed courtyard.

or maybe he found a way to replicate the "controlled fall" he had with banana the yellow dwagon in the summer updates, where it seems none of them took serious damage
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 036

Postby robak » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:51 pm

drmartin wrote:Has anybody proposed that Parson could order the dwagons to fall, and then have them "recover" while they're falling inside the courtyard? that way he could use the falling exploit to change zones off-turns, and then have the dwagons "safe" inside the roofed courtyard.

I was thinking about that, too. It seems the courtyard starts with the glass roof. So they could fall into the dome and then stop falling before hitting the ground, thus entering the garrison zone without splatting. On the other hand, it has been stated that the barrier is "the ground".
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