Book 2 – Page 48

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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby CelebrenIthil » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:39 am

Selexor wrote:Well, we've seen wounds that show up as red cuts. We've seen bruises and scrapes and bumps. We've even seen units missing large chunks of skin and flesh that expose the bone and tissue beneath.

But we've never seen so much as a single drop of blood. That seems unique to Parson, and to him alone.


Yes, and I've always wondered about the fact that we weren't told that anyone found Parson's bleeding peculiar after the Banana incident.
But, small detail I guess.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:51 am

Oberon wrote:CONCLUSIONS (I can provide citations from the strip for all of these conclusions)
Tram concludes that Charlie is afraid of GK. He is partly right.
Tram concludes that Charlie doesn't want Jetstone to parley with GK. He is partly right.


ACtually - he is right.

Tram concludes that Charlie is terrified of GK. He is partly right.


We're not sure what Charlies feelings towards Parson are. I suspect Tram is right.

Tram concludes that Parson cannot "pull the same trickery that got Ansom." He is wrong.


Technically - he is correct. Parsons Parley gambit relied on Bogrolls ability to move from tower to airspace.

However, in the sense that Tram concludes that Parson can't pull any more trickery?

GK forces are in the airspace of an enemy city. Their turn has ended. They cannot interact with units in any other hex or sub zone. The most they can do is is use the yellow dwagons to bomb - which Tram has taken care of. Other than that, they can't move or attack. Wanda can't decrypt. And they are limited to off - turn actions.

How is Parson reacting? He bombs the atrium...as expected. He croaks some infantry...as expected.

Can he do anything else? Yes..he can promote units to heavy and bypass off turn movement restrictions that way.

You are stating Tram is dumb because he didn't anticipate Parson finding a way around a fundamental law of Erfworld. Thats like saying Fort Knox isn't secure because there are no anti-teleporter defences built in. Why...anybody could take the gold!!!

At the same time, Tram has a valid interest in parley and a reason to hold back.

Tram concludes that the best move for Jetstone is to make an alliance with GK, linking the fate of a Toolist Side and a Royal Side. He is wrong.


That depends on what both sides get from it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:34 am

Selexor wrote:Well, we've seen wounds that show up as red cuts. We've seen bruises and scrapes and bumps. We've even seen units missing large chunks of skin and flesh that expose the bone and tissue beneath.

But we've never seen so much as a single drop of blood. That seems unique to Parson, and to him alone.


So what do transylvitans and their bats drink? Personally i think that blood is synonymous with lifeforce in Erf.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:05 am

Kyrt wrote:
Tram concludes that Parson cannot "pull the same trickery that got Ansom." He is wrong.

Technically - he is correct. Parsons Parley gambit relied on Bogrolls ability to move from tower to airspace.
Please... Parson's "gambit" in TBfGK could have been foiled with a single sentence from an Archon:
"Ansom, that is a veiled Twoll, and not Parson at all."
Don't try to position this as some kind of mechanical brilliance when said brilliance could be countered by a single spoken sentence.
And don't tell me that Parson knew that the RCC wasn't paying for spell security, either... That is totally unsupported.
Kyrt wrote:However, in the sense that Tram concludes that Parson can't pull any more trickery?

GK forces are in the airspace of an enemy city. Their turn has ended. They cannot interact with units in any other hex or sub zone. The most they can do is is use the yellow dwagons to bomb - which Tram has taken care of. Other than that, they can't move or attack. Wanda can't decrypt. And they are limited to off - turn actions.
Yes, anticipated actions. Which lead to unanticipated results. Tram knows that this is the kind of results that someone who beat 25:1 odds is capable of, he knows that looking closer should be mandatory this time. He is instead holding the idiot ball, by expecting the expected and refusing to anticipate anything but the possible.
Kyrt wrote:Thats like saying Fort Knox isn't secure because there are no anti-teleporter defences built in. Why...anybody could take the gold!!!
I'll remind you that Fort Knox is no longer just a protector of bullion. And also that bullion is no longer a direct backing for the US dollar. You are making the same mistake as Tram, and are granting a lot more credibility to the supposed impregnability of "the fort" AND to the supposed consequences of any hypothetical raid on the resources there than may be warranted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Selexor » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:31 am

Dr Pepper wrote:
Selexor wrote:Well, we've seen wounds that show up as red cuts. We've seen bruises and scrapes and bumps. We've even seen units missing large chunks of skin and flesh that expose the bone and tissue beneath.

But we've never seen so much as a single drop of blood. That seems unique to Parson, and to him alone.


So what do transylvitans and their bats drink? Personally i think that blood is synonymous with lifeforce in Erf.

I had completely forgotten the Transylvito Vampires! Well, if anything, that only raises further questions as to why Erfworld doesn't allow blood. Maybe it's part of the same Censoring mechanic that prevents swearing, and because Parson can swear, he's also allowed to bleed? Although in that case, it makes you wonder how Erfworld allows sex, if blood and swearing aren't allowed. ;)
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Pointyleaf » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:26 am

Ditto wrote:Off-turn units can defend themselves when attacked, provided they do not violate the other rules governing their zero-move status. That means they cannot torch or sonic across zones - but if a unipegataur flew over and punched Sylvia, Sylvia could punch it back. Moral of the story: Don't punch Sylvia. Archers & casters are allowed to attack across city zones, but GK units cannot.


Actually, off-turn units can attack any units in their hex, regardless of which side instigates it. (Note that in cities, air/land/tunnels are basically different hexes for attacking units). Any Jetstone unit that flies up into the airspace is fair game right now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Hatu » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:28 am

Oberon wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
Tram concludes that Parson cannot "pull the same trickery that got Ansom." He is wrong.

Technically - he is correct. Parsons Parley gambit relied on Bogrolls ability to move from tower to airspace.
Please... Parson's "gambit" in TBfGK could have been foiled with a single sentence from an Archon:
"Ansom, that is a veiled Twoll, and not Parson at all."
Don't try to position this as some kind of mechanical brilliance when said brilliance could be countered by a single spoken sentence.
And don't tell me that Parson knew that the RCC wasn't paying for spell security, either... That is totally unsupported.


Parson's parley ploy never made sense to begin with, Archons or no Archons; even if it *had* been Parson and not Bogroll, why would Ansom allow an enemy to get within striking distance? Such is the power of plot contrivance, I guess.

At any rate, if Tramennis wants to avoid the trick that got Ansom, he need only stay out of "Ossomer's" reach.

Kyrt wrote:However, in the sense that Tram concludes that Parson can't pull any more trickery?

GK forces are in the airspace of an enemy city. Their turn has ended. They cannot interact with units in any other hex or sub zone. The most they can do is is use the yellow dwagons to bomb - which Tram has taken care of. Other than that, they can't move or attack. Wanda can't decrypt. And they are limited to off - turn actions.
Yes, anticipated actions. Which lead to unanticipated results. Tram knows that this is the kind of results that someone who beat 25:1 odds is capable of, he knows that looking closer should be mandatory this time. He is instead holding the idiot ball, by expecting the expected and refusing to anticipate anything but the possible.


So what standard should we hold Tramennis to? If he could correctly anticipate and counter impossible moves, Tramennis would be Parson's superior. I think there has to be room for Tram to make legitimate mistakes without it being the result of the idiot ball.

The fundamental problem is that not only do we not know how most of Erfworld works, we don't know how much the Erfworlders themselves know about how Erfworld works. So there's no objective way to assess Tramennis' plans, at least at this time.

For example, Tram seemed to know that Yellow Dwagons could bombard the Atrium, yet he put his ground forces there anyway. That looks like an obvious mistake, but without knowing what his options were (and what "conventional" strategies Parson could use to counter them) we can't say for sure.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Pointyleaf » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:38 am

Oberon wrote:Yes, anticipated actions. Which lead to unanticipated results. Tram knows that this is the kind of results that someone who beat 25:1 odds is capable of, he knows that looking closer should be mandatory this time. He is instead holding the idiot ball, by expecting the expected and refusing to anticipate anything but the possible.


Meh. If you were told that someone could perform actual, real magic, would you believe right away, or would you need to see it for yourself first?

Well, whatever you personally would do, the overriding human tendency is to be skeptical. I can't blame Tram for taking the traditional but smart route of diplomacy; it's what has worked for him in the past and it's what he knows. He'll need to see this "perfect warlord" for himself, in action, before he believes.

On top of that, I expect that Parson's exploits in this battle are going to be even cleverer than the last. Trimancer links are not unheard-of, although Parson was clearly bright for using that trimancer link then. But attacking across zones? Totally new.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby fjolnir » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:06 am

We must recall that this trick from the observations of the opposition seems to be a last act of defiance before attempting suicide once the fliers fall the other team will know that there might be something up but there's no clue what...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby slb » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:03 am

Oberon wrote:
Kyrt wrote:Technically - he is correct. Parsons Parley gambit relied on Bogrolls ability to move from tower to airspace.
Please... Parson's "gambit" in TBfGK could have been foiled with a single sentence from an Archon: "Ansom, that is a veiled Twoll, and not Parson at all."
Don't try to position this as some kind of mechanical brilliance when said brilliance could be countered by a single spoken sentence.[...]

By saying that, you're actually making a point that Tram's knowlege about Parson do not include breaking the very laws of Erfworld. Indeed, all Parson's tricks so far were still within the rules of Erfworld and had never exploited a "game/titan" mechanic. Therefore Tram would have no reason to believe that entering a parley would be dangereous, His actions appear quite sane and pragmatic, and certainly not idiotic.

Kyrt wrote:You are stating Tram is dumb because he didn't anticipate Parson finding a way around a fundamental law of Erfworld. Thats like saying Fort Knox isn't secure because there are no anti-teleporter defences built in. Why...anybody could take the gold!!!
Yes THIS. I don't understand people who expect Tram to plan for the unbelievable ...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby oslecamo2 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:14 am

Oberon wrote:Yes, anticipated actions. Which lead to unanticipated results. Tram knows that this is the kind of results that someone who beat 25:1 odds is capable of, he knows that looking closer should be mandatory this time. He is instead holding the idiot ball, by expecting the expected and refusing to anticipate anything but the possible.


Not exactly. He wants the idiot ball, because like already pointed out Trams is in a lose-lose situation.

Trams view:
Option 1-Kill them all!
Option 1 result: GK is hurt, but far from finished. Jetstone is bankrupt and cornered to their capital. GK eventually steamrolls Jetstone, finishing them. That or any of their own "royal allies" finishes Jetstone for their own profit.

Option 2-Alliance at ANY costs!
Option 2 result: become allied with a powerfull side. No longer bankrupt, pliers potentially nullified, get some breathing room, rebuild your side from there.

Thing is, option 2 actually leads to defeat as well. But there is no option 3! He can either bring down Wanda with him (assuring GK's revenge) or use her as hostage for an alliance. A diplomatic solution is the only thing Trams could do in order to reasonably survive in the future, so he chooses to believe on it to the very end. Yes, there's several signs that option 2 is also a dead-end, but still looks better than option 1 for now. Trems needs to hold the idiot ball because both his brothers shoved it down his throat and let him in a no-win scenario where GK either crushes them by brute strenght or Hamster cheese, and from wich the only possible escape would be an alliance with GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Trotsky » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:53 am

What I find interesting is that, up until this page, the assumption had been that every unit, Archons included, could get to the ground by voluntarily falling. Sure, many will die, but even if only a few of them survive then it beats the complete loss guaranteed by being the only units still in the airspace. Now, it seems, people are guessing that you can't fall without either being a heavy on a mount or braining your own mount (as somebody suggested Wanda was preparing to do).

Another thing I find odd with some people's assumptions is the group saying that Jetstone has to slap somebody in the face (or do some other aggressive act) for GK to attack. This is ridiculous. The only reason GK can't attack (yellow dwagons aside) is because there is nobody in the Airspace. As a matter of fact, that's WHY there are no Jetstone units in the airspace. Remember, the only reason Parson didn't use the fliers to attack the siege units the turn before Ansom assaulted the walls was because he didn't trust Charlie not to shoot them down, and he wasn't about to slap any of them in the face first. Heck, unled infantry should automatically attack any unit that enters their hex. I think we are adding layers of pedanticism to the rules not intended.

As for Tram (his name has an A), just because you are wrong, doesn't make you an idiot. He was given a list of facts by Charlie that, most likely, tell him nothing about the man himself. His objectives are to ensure GK, and the toolist ideals it espouses, are no longer threats to Jetstone's existence. As far as he can tell a diplomatic agreement is the best chance he has of making that happen. Besides, I have yet to see Parson do anything that REQUIRES Jetstone to have parleyed. The parley only seems to have been a means to improve the survival rate of his troops. I could be wrong and I hope that doesn't make me an idiot. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby zilfallon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:33 pm

People are repeating same things, and because of that, i'm going to repeat myself again:

I'm just saying that Tram is being a damn idiot, because he assumes that he knows everything.

1) He is against someone who beat his brother 25:1
2) Charlie told him that he's the strongest being in erfworld and parleying will be to his favor.

Now, people will reply, saying that "oh but he doesn't trust Charlie" sure... example; (a very strange one, but will be enough to explain what i mean, i hope)

When you saw in TV news that a train you're about to board carries a very important politician who's going to talk about peace with a hostile country, and that country is known to bomb trains to kill diplomats, will you still board it, fully confident that absolutely NOTHING will happen? No? Even if you don't trust the source, someone, like TV, like Charlie, saying that the train will be bombed, means something unusual will happen at that train. Maybe no bombing but something else which won't favor you? Oh maybe it's a false report to confuse people? You'll never know for sure. Will you risk your life? You can just take another train and be safe, instead of insisting "NO, i will get on that train", and that won't cost you more than half an hour.

Tram isn't a total moron. He understands Jetstone's situation. He knows that peace would favor Jetstone. But really...he's against a warlord who didn't even bother talking about "truce" when he was totally overwhelmed and his life was threatened in that battle. Now, he's sitting outside the battle (well, he wants to come to battle, but Tram doesn't know this, i'm explaining from Tram's point of view). He isn't in such a bad situation as before. At TBfGK, survival of Gobwin Knob depended on that battle. Now? They'll lose an advantage - sure, a great advantage, but not their existence - at worst case, and will be close to RCCII in strength.

And he started killing Jetstone infantry during parley. This IS a sign that he doesn't want to parley. Would you really kill enemy troops while begging for peace? No. If yes, then you aren't being very "diplomatic". And Parson is NOT being diplomatic, in either way.

Jetstone needs peace. But signs point that GK doesn't want peace. Maybe Jetstone will lose against GK in long term, but it's still better than being destroyed now. And come on...How can Tram believe that GK would agree to peace? Jetstone knows that GK is ruled by fanatics who believe they're destined to destroy royalty and rule the entire Erfworld using 4 Arkentools. Usual reply to this: "But Tram is doing the best he can: diplomacy" Yes but he shouldn't be dumb enough to believe that what he does best will ALWAYS get him out of the mess. So someone please explain why they think Tram isn't being arrogant. And repeating same things as before won't count, since i wrote this post, and the first one, replying to that.

And trotsky, once again, i'm not saying that Tram is being an idiot just because he's wrong. I'm saying that because he's being damn arrogant. He isn't being himself, really. We know that Tram isn't arrogant and naive. So something is strange and i don't understand why he's being so overconfident.

And really, why shouldn't he trust Charlie? It should be obvious to Tram that Charlie wants GK down. I mean...he's offering a bounty for each decrypted archon croaked. Isn't that enough to believe his words about GK? It should be. Even if he doesn't trust Charlie usually, he has enough reasons to trust him NOW, and should have done what he advised.

Now we don't know what Parson's exploit is, for sure, but if it's something which could be stopped with skipping parley and shooting down Wanda directly as Charlie said, Tram will regret this in after-erf and maybe become a ghost :D Now that would be funny
Trems needs to hold the idiot ball because both his brothers shoved it down his throat and let him in a no-win scenario where GK either crushes them by brute strenght or Hamster cheese, and from wich the only possible escape would be an alliance with GK.


Now that's a good point. But will Jetstone really be in such a bad situation if they destroy GK airforce?

Tram said it himself, but Parson said it himself that it's game over if their airforce is destroyed. And I believe Parson's prediction is more accurate than Tram's.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby effataigus » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:39 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:Trams view:
Option 1-Kill them all!
Option 1 result: GK is hurt, but far from finished. Jetstone is bankrupt and cornered to their capital. GK eventually steamrolls Jetstone, finishing them. That or any of their own "royal allies" finishes Jetstone for their own profit.


Quoting Tram's internal monologue:

"This would be a long fight, though not a difficult one. With the tower fully spelled-up and four casters on hand to augment more than six hundred archers, no force of flyers could hope to survive the turn. Those archers and casters would do a lot of leveling today. They would drop that enemy Croakamancer, and Ossomer's dust would scatter across the city he once had loved.

And after that? The whole war would turn around. The Arkenpliers would return to Jetstone. (Indeed, to him, he supposed. What a thought.) The Coalition he had helped to assemble and re-assemble would finally prevail. The Titans would once again smile upon the Royal powers, and Father would be insufferable, for having been given the proof of it."


The only thing that has changed between now and then is that Charlie tried to talk Tram out of it, and I don't believe that Tram gives much credibility to Charlie's intel. Tram may recognize the danger of a resurgent GK, but he certainly isn't thinking about this battle in the terms you mentioned! His warning his father about the dangers (in milder terms than given above) likely reflects equal parts what he wants his father to consider as what he himself believes is likely.

Also, if you're holding Tram accountable for not acting on information he doesn't know or fully believe, consider that he is, unknown to him, giving JS it's best chance of long term survival by getting this death ball rolling. From our perspective, there are two ways JS can survive in the long term. First, they can make an alliance with GK. Second, they can kill Wanda, Jack, the flying column, and Parson. Both of these eventualities are possibilities only given his current course of action. If this mess doesn't start, then Parson doesn't hop into JS :D

EDIT: Oh, but yah... it does seem like putting the ground column in the atrium was pretty bone headed... inside the tower would have made more sense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby CelebrenIthil » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:54 pm

trotsky wrote:Another thing I find odd with some people's assumptions is the group saying that Jetstone has to slap somebody in the face (or do some other aggressive act) for GK to attack. This is ridiculous. The only reason GK can't attack (yellow dwagons aside) is because there is nobody in the Airspace. As a matter of fact, that's WHY there are no Jetstone units in the airspace.

Isn't it a rule that you can't initiate an attack off-turn, only retaliate? Or maybe I remember wrongly... :?:

trotsky wrote:As for Tram (his name has an A)

I know, but I don't like writing Tram because, you know, that's the short for tramway, it feels weird to me. So I go with "Trem", shortened version of "tremendous", what his name is supposed to sound like, and it's not like it'd be the first time someone gets their name shortened in a way that doesn't actually occurs in their name, ex: Bill for William (always found this quite puzzeling).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:00 pm

Hatu wrote:So what standard should we hold Tramennis to? If he could correctly anticipate and counter impossible moves, Tramennis would be Parson's superior. I think there has to be room for Tram to make legitimate mistakes without it being the result of the idiot ball.
The point is, Tram can counter impossible moves, by preventing any moves. And just like the easy counter to the Bogroll deception, all it would take is a single sentence:
"All casters and archers fire."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Lazalar the Cat » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:17 pm

First time posting, but bear with me on this.

A side cannot move between city zones they do not control. Once more, cannot move between zones THEY DO NOT CONTROL.

With Jetstone abandoning the Atrium and GK forces "landing" via the Banana Exploit, GK will control the Atrium. Therefore, GK forces can move between the Airspace and the Atrium - allowing Wanda & Co. to land without risk. Jack and archons create foolamancy to show what everyone expects - dwagons and such in the air for the shooting.

Meanwhile, on the ground, Wanda decrypts forces and Parson captures another sub-zone of garrison. Parson gets reinforced (again, free move between areas controlled by your forces) and utilizes the newly-decrypted seige to attack the tower - which seige can do (re- purples and yellows). Tower down, now the garrison is a contested area again, but with GK on the ground and in contact. Note that the escape for our friend Trammenous is to use the jetpack and the unipegataurs to "take" the now-empty airspace before GK returns to it. Slately names Tram heir before dying at Parson's hands and Tram flees with the Unipegataurs before getting shot down by decrypted archers.

Cubbins uses a hat to transport himself (pulling it down a-la Bugs Bunny) to the new capitol site, while Ace is captured and we find out that a decrypted dittomancer is merely an old pervert with no juice (insert limp joke here).

Just my two copper pieces, but it is an exploit I could see Parson using.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Magothys » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:25 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:Option 2-Alliance at ANY costs!
Option 2 result: become allied with a powerfull side. No longer bankrupt, pliers potentially nullified, get some breathing room, rebuild your side from there.

Thing is, option 2 actually leads to defeat as well.


I'm not sure about that. Tram's actual plan was to form a contract of non-aggression on Jetstone's terms, because they believe they have leverage over the battle. That won't happen; Parson is in the process of destroying that leverage, but if an alliance was offered by either party after that point, I think it would be accepted. Parson would take it, since GK would prefer alliance over conquest (and he doesn't want to kill people). Tram's accepting it or not is a bit more in the air (Slately wouldn't like it), but Tram is a diplomat without much alternative, and Slately is a coward.

The point is, Tram can counter impossible moves, by preventing any moves. And just like the easy counter to the Bogroll deception, all it would take is a single sentence:
"All casters and archers fire."


This would require Tram to know in advance that said impossible move is going to happen.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby effataigus » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:26 pm

Oberon wrote:
Hatu wrote:So what standard should we hold Tramennis to? If he could correctly anticipate and counter impossible moves, Tramennis would be Parson's superior. I think there has to be room for Tram to make legitimate mistakes without it being the result of the idiot ball.
The point is, Tram can counter impossible moves, by preventing any moves. And just like the easy counter to the Bogroll deception, all it would take is a single sentence:
"All casters and archers fire."


Nah, that still wouldn't save them against the rubber-dwagon defense... which of course sends all incoming missiles and spells back at the caster as part of the original attack action (bypassing zone barriers).

Impossible you say?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Trotsky » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:10 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:
trotsky wrote:Another thing I find odd with some people's assumptions is the group saying that Jetstone has to slap somebody in the face (or do some other aggressive act) for GK to attack. This is ridiculous. The only reason GK can't attack (yellow dwagons aside) is because there is nobody in the Airspace. As a matter of fact, that's WHY there are no Jetstone units in the airspace.

Isn't it a rule that you can't initiate an attack off-turn, only retaliate? Or maybe I remember wrongly... :?:

As far as I recall, it is never explicitly stated as such and the implications tend to be that you can attack within your hex (or zone when in a city) pretty freely, otherwise there would have been no need for Parson to be worried about Charlie shooting down his fliers when he went to attack Ansom (until they actually were hired by Jetstone). Perhaps more indicative is Parson ordering the dwagons "Don't attack! No warlords engage until she does!" when Jillian found them during the donut of doom ploy. If they couldn't attack until she did, then this order was a tad bit redundant.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:"Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


DoctorJest, if I weren't referentially married to my sig I'd use that instead.
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Trotsky
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